Fact vs. Fiction
Offline Let us answer these questions with all the honesty we can muster...
A yes or no - Fact or Fiction
Babys are born with sinful thought.
Babys are born Atheist.
(Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist) Wikipedia
The bible is made up of true life events.
Atheist are as a rule evil people.
Evolution is made up of fact based science.
Christian believe in god.
(The concept of belief presumes a subject (the believer) and an object of belief (the proposition).So, like other propositional attitudes, belief implies the existence of mental states and intentionality, both of which are hotly debated topics in the philosophy of mind whose foundations and relation to brain states are still controversial) Wikipedia
I know there are a lot more where these came from, but lets start with these and see where we end up.
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
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Is this the Testosterone Cafe?
Banned for personal attacks. The explanation is here.
You and your spouse take the internet wayyyy too seriously.
Banned for personal attacks. The explanation is here.
Let me see if I can put this in laymen terms for you. Now read carefully because I'm not going to have a 2 day argument with you on explaining every detail of what I mean. It's so simple that a 2 year old would understand. In we I meant atheists. Nowhere in that was I referring to christians being horrible people. By telling that guy he wasn't in good company on this site you were putting a label on atheists, not Christan's. Those were even your own words and you still have trouble decoding it?
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Meaning of life,
Please find it in yourself to either get with the post, or get out of it. You are a horrible person. To me.. now I have asked you a number of questions between your rants on the meaning of the word cruel and picking on my wife.
You have not once tried to have an educated conversation with me. If you have the education that you claim to have then this would be a cinch. You should be able to talk me right off the soap box.
Or can you?
All I have seen out of you is this
shit. Now this is not testosterone speaking. Get your ass in the ring. Bring all of the words of wisdom (you can find on Wikipedia) and show me the light.
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
Didn't pay much attention to the profanity. Went looking for the "more informed" and articulate atheists he mentioned. I found atheists, but their arguments and the topics where they showed up seemed awfully familiar. So far all of it has been discussed here as well. Same arguments, same tone...I really tried to notice a difference between them and the people who's posts I've been reading for over 2 years now.
Same stuff, same sort of people. I guess he was just kidding.
Meh.
I didn't pick on your wife.
What do you want to talk about? I'll let you begin.
Banned for personal attacks. The explanation is here.
I’m sure that you are aware my initial reaction was to tell you to go look for yourself.
However I am trying to use a little restraint here. So I will ask them again in no certain order.
You say that children are born in sin. (Sinful thoughts, sinful nature, etc.)
I want to know do you feel that these kids go to heaven? If so; how when the text of the bible states that only through the word of god shall a person enter the house of the lord?
If the child is born into this world Atheist (I think you agreed I would have to look) and all Atheist are doomed to hell; well I think you see this one. Again how?
This will be a good start.
Remember it took a lot not to continue tearing into you. So use your restraint and we will have a conversation.
Yes?
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
In 2 Samuel 12, David's child dies but David says that he will see him when he (David) dies. Later on in Psalm 16, it is implied that David went to Heaven.
Isaiah 7:15 alludes to the age of accountability, meaning that if someone dies before they are smart enough to make the intellectual assent towards faith, then God will allow him or her into Heaven.
This is permissible under God's law because Jesus took God's judgment upon himself on behalf of mankind. The penalty has been paid and kids can be forgiven.
Banned for personal attacks. The explanation is here.
OK so in your believe children go to heaven..
Good premise.
What about the part where we are chosen before birth?
Next I have to ask one of those bone crushers. How can you see worshiping a god that could harm Innocent little children?
And do you use the "it's gods will" defense when people ask you how god could do these things?
I need to know how you stand. It's character building.
Feel free to ask one or two of your own.
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
This does not make much sense because:
1) What are those babies going to do in either hell or heaven? Are they going to remain intellectually incapable of comprehending the concept of god for eternity? This does not make any sense unless we say that babies will grow up in heaven and in hell to see the light. Do you know of any such reference?
2) Did God send babies to hell before Christ?
Thanks for your response.
100%
What about it?
Didn't we just agree that children who die go to Heaven? How is it harmful to a child if the child goes to Heaven?
No, I usually do not.
Ok. What do questions like the ones you just asked do for atheism? None of them prove that God doesn't exist. Even if you could prove that God is evil, you'd still be left with the task of proving that an evil God does not exist.
Banned for personal attacks. The explanation is here.
100% I agree with the logical thought process, however MOL gets very upset when we contradict him.
I am trying to see his thought process, for further questions.
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
Yes, ok, I shut up.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
I can not and will not tell another Atheist to shut up; however you must wear kids gloves when dealing with him.
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
In your last reply, you did not respond to the other points that I made. You only responded to my last point. I'll give you a chance to edit it and then respond.
Banned for personal attacks. The explanation is here.
I'm going to pop some popcorn
I don't know if you are aware but I have a child with special needs; I have seen first hand the suffering of these children. That is what I was referring to. I only refer to the pain these children experience on earth. Because to me that is the only life they will have. I can't see an all powerful god allowing children to suffer.
I intentionally left out the child cruelty question. I don't want to offend before we have a chance to get to know each others views. You are hardened by these Atheist on here. Yes?
Read my wife's post on "They shoulda got the death penalty"
Do you believe in faith healing?
To answer your other "statement" you tried to establish that children go to heaven. I only stated that was a good premise.
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
I am not going to be online until tomorrow. until then.
It's only 9:45. Give me a chance to respond.
Banned for personal attacks. The explanation is here.
He has to get up at 5am to go to work. Also we have to get our son ready for bed too.
It would be pretty horrible if God made us suffer, provided that the suffering was all that there was.
But that's not what Christianity teaches, is it?
No. What Christianity teaches is that you will suffer for about 70 years, or whatever the average life expectancy is. Then, some people will go on to receive eternal happiness in Heaven. In Heaven, there will be no suffering.
70 years isn't a long time compared to eternity, is it?
Instead of focusing on the fact that your child is suffering, why not focus on the fact that you have a child. Focus on the fact that you have a wife. Focus on the fact that you exist at all, that out of all the other sperm you were up against, you managed to make it through. Focus on the fact that you exist at a time where you are able to communicate with people via discussion boards, share your experiences with others across the planet, read books online, play cool videogames, watch movies, etc. Focus on the fact that you have a good job, a mother who took care of you, etc. etc. etc.
Finally, let the suffering that you do experience become a reason to accept God instead of rejecting him. Let it give meaning to the suffering that you do experience.
Only if Jesus does it. Otherwise, faith healing is just a bunch of shysters trying to take your money.
Banned for personal attacks. The explanation is here.
Throughout human history as our species has faced the frighten terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are and where we are going; it has been the authority (the political, the religious, and the educational authorities) who have attempted to comfort us. By giving us order, rules, and regulation. Informing or forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question these authorities. THINK FOR YOURSELF…
You don't know that to be true. You are just asserting that. Why does it follow that an omnipotent God must act according to your wishes and according to your timetable?
No. It shows us that God has something better for us than where we are right now.
Because God says not to do that kind of a thing.
How do you know that there is no eternity? You are just making assertions.
Did Christian missionaries come down on parachutes, crash through the roof of the hospital, and block the doors to the operating rooms so that doctors could not go in?
Even if your son didn't have special needs, he'd still suffer. He would still cry when he drops his ice cream cone. He would scrape his elbow when he falls down. He would still get chicken pox. Even in his state, he'll experience a lot of joy. He'll get presents on his birthday, he'll eat chocolate cake, he'll play fun games of Mouse Trap.
The point is, all of this is finite. Your lifetime here should be viewed in a much larger perspective. All of the suffering and joy you experience here should be viewed in light of what's to come. Accepting God will not only affect you in the afterlife, but it will change your life in the here and now.
Look, you wanted to understand my views. Do you understand them now?
They do not have faith. They are greedy and dishonest. I do stand up against what they do.
Banned for personal attacks. The explanation is here.
"Isaiah 7:15 alludes to the age of accountability, meaning that if someone dies before they are smart enough to make the intellectual assent towards faith, then God will allow him or her into Heaven."
Well isn't that just handy. I just love statements like this where the religious are allowed free reign on interpretation and I am not.
Maybe thats the problem though, I don't recall ever having curds and honey.
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
So are you.
Very humorous. I think he may have been referring to christian groups trying to block funding for stem cell research.
He was referring to stem cell research in that particular hospital. Ethan's heart surgeon spoke with Jimmy about the stem cell research there and showed a picture of George Bush shutting it down. This doctor had grown a heart for an unborn baby while he had the opportunity to do it but when Bush did this he said he had to call about 6 of his other patients to let them know they probably should abort the babies because there was nothing he could do then. He said that was what hurt the most besides the research being shut down.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
For me, the only difference between Calvinism and the lottery is that the lottery officials show you the numbers so you know whether you've won or lost.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
As a matter of fact... babies are born believers... atheism is a born again condition. See the God gene and other investigations on the subject
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene
Faith is Hardwired into our Genes. It appeared on all cultures.
An idea that got shot down from both sides. Did you read the entry or just post the link?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
If the universe is created by a god, why do you need to believe in him?
Perhaps you know that Windows OS was created by Bill Gates. Why don't you go to the church of Bill Gates then? Well, may be the church of Steve Jobs? I just don't understand.
If something is PROVEN to be true, there is no reason to believe. You should be considerably retarded to BELIEVE in radio waves, for example.
If you prove that God's gene is in us and God created everything .... fine. But I do not see how does it make us theists. Make your self a favor, don't be a retard.
The debate regarding the ethics of stem cell research has nothing to do with theism vs. atheism. You can be an atheist and be against stem cell research. The central issue of stem cell research is the same as that of abortion: Does life begin at conception? As you can see, many atheists believe this solely for secular reasons:
http://www.godlessprolifers.org/home.html
http://www.thinkatheist.com/forum/topics/antiabortion-atheists
http://atheism.about.com/od/abortioncontraception/p/AtheistsAbort.htm
http://www.newsweek.com/2008/11/28/no-god-and-no-abortions.html
http://www.causes.com/causes/19127
Banned for personal attacks. The explanation is here.
If only it were an abortion issue...
The embryonic stem cells are usually taken from extra fertilized eggs that fertility clinics would normally process as they would other biological waste.
Can you call those embryos alive if they were never intended for implantation?
Or are you one of those pro-snowflake people who would like to see (or even enforce) women becoming rent-a- wombs?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I have come to the conclusion that you are a moron. Where did I state that this was a conversation about stem cell research? I didn't. First of all I wasn't even talking to you. Second if I want to talk about lollipops and rainbows who are you to tell me what relevance it is? Oh look, moron is even on wikipedia in case you don't understand.
Moron
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, searchIf all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
I just read the first 3 posts. The idea is not shot down really... It wxplains why all cultures have religions, why we still believe in religion after scientific thought and why an overwhelmingly percentage of the population believes in something. I don't think I can be convinced otherwise easily.
And no one I think is trying to convince you otherwise. It is your choice to remain who you are.
You do realize that anyone can do editing on wikipedia?
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Are any atheist organisations taking legal action to stop funding for stem cell research ?
The largest pro-life organization in the United States is a secular organization called the National Right To Life Committee:
http://www.nrlc.org/
http://www.nrlc.org/Factsheets/FS08_StemCellResearch.pdf
There is also the Eagle Forum, Susan B Anthony List, and the Republican National Coalition for Life. All secular organizations.
http://www.sba-list.org/
http://www.eagleforum.org/
http://www.rnclife.org/
Banned for personal attacks. The explanation is here.
So are any of them taking legal action to block funding for stem cell research ?
What do you mean "is not shot down" ? Both the religious and scientific quotes completely reject the whole concept. Didn't you read them ?
What do you mean "legal action"? You either vote for it or you vote against it and you try to find ways to influence others to vote for the same thing. The committees are constantly advocating for their political position, threatening boycotts, petitioning, and developing campaigns.
http://www.nrlc.org/Killing_Embryos/Release071906.html
Other than that, I'm not sure what you mean by "legal action". I'm not aware of any organizations (secular or non-secular) that filed a lawsuit against a doctor who did stem cell research. If stem cell research is outlawed in certain states, then much like Roe v. Wade, it would be the state which goes up against that particular person in court, not any particular organization.
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http://www.arrogantatheist.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=737&page=1
This was all I could find on the issue. Doesn't say anything about legal action but the majority are for stem cell research. Personally, I don't see the problem with it and I guess that makes me an evil person. The thing is that there are a lot of frozen embryos for people with infertility problems also there a lot of unwanted pregnancies. Given that abortion is legal I don't see the problem with asking someone who plans to abort their fetus if they would like to participate in stem cell research. They could sign a piece of paper and also get a booklet on the risk as if there's no risk with abortion and help people who need stem cell research.
It could possibly do a world of good for people like my son with genetic problems ( and no his is not a result of his dad and I being related ) and people such as myself who have type 1 diabetes. I really don't see the huge issue considering that people that it could help are already here and living. Or I guess it really doesn't matter and we should just die because people find it so extreme to do research with embryos. One out of three pregnancies end in miscarriage and lots of children are born with birth abnormalities. Lets ignore that though. It just seems right to make a huge deal out of stem cell research because apparently the people who participated did it without concenting.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
This forum is about opinions, not often about scientific papers or formal religion thought. Don't think I've missed your point. But saying that babies are born atheists (agnostic is more likely) is the same as saying that babies are born speechless... and maybe we all should be speechless because we are born like that!! The potential to speak is hardwired in our genes as is the potential to believe, and that's my point. Saying that babies are atheists or theists is meaningless, you need abstract thought and rationality to make up your mind.
I don't mind being alone in my opinion really. Most widely accepted opinions today were once eccentric ones. Amen Bertrand Russell!
This : http://www.christianpost.com/article/20100629/lawsuit-against-obamas-embryonic-stem-cell-policy-reinstated/index.html
It's from a christian site, so I hope that's ok. The christian organisation in question is the christian medical association. Another plaintiff in the case is the nightlight christian adoption agency.
So... to answer your questions as a theist:
Babys are born with sinful thought. - NO
Babys are born Atheist. - NO, they are born agnostic
The bible is made up of true life events. - YES and NO. True life events and metaphors.
Atheist are as a rule evil people. - Most definitely NO
Evolution is made up of fact based science. - YES
Christian believe in god. - Guess So
So you think the god gene is nonsense too ? Ok then.
And quite a lot of eccentric ones are still nothing more than that.
That was not what I've said. If I say the god gene is nonsense I'd have to say the speech gene is nonsense too...
A marble block isn't a statue until the artist works on it. But it's still a marble block with the right structure to became a statue... it's on its genes...
Okay, I'm confused now. Every source quoted in the link you posted says the the whole idea is nonsense. You yourself claimed that babies aren't born either atheist or theist, right after you claimed that "babies are born believers".
Don't you think you should read up on the science involved here before you start constructing fancy metaphors ?