American atheists: What is atheism?
Offline I came across this article from American atheists and it has generated some controversy at Rational Skeptisism and JREF boards and thought I would post it here for some more thoughts on it.
http://www.atheists.org/atheism
What is Atheism
Atheism is a doctrine that states that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.
The following definition of Atheism was given to the Supreme Court of the United States in the case of Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203, 83 S. Ct. 1560, 10 L.Ed.2d (MD, 1963), to remove reverential Bible reading and oral unison recitation of the Lord's Prayer in the public schools.
“Your petitioners are Atheists and they define their beliefs as follows. An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An Atheist believes that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth for all men together to enjoy.
An Atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction, and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and enjoy it.
An Atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment.
He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man.
He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter.
He believes that we are our brother's keepers; and are keepers of our own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the time is now.”
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The first is too broad. That defines a materialist/physicalist/naturalist more than an atheist...many atheists wouldn't even be aware of many things listed and might not agree.
The second is too specific, that seems to be about some form of Humanism or life philosophy.
I think atheism=lack of positive belief in a deity is good enough, we've got plenty of fancy words to use if we want to be more specific.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Yes, it was written by Madalyn Murray O'Hair in the 60's I believe. American Atheists has condoned that definition since then. Their membership cards contain this definition. A great many atheists boycott or are unwilling to become members of American Atheists as a result of their cultlike religious definition of atheism. The actual definition is much more simple. The only thing that one atheist must have in common with another is the absence of a belief in god.
I am one of those people who have never joined American Atheists as I do not condone or agree with their definition. I respect the work of American Atheists, and many of the people working there, but I can't be a member because of their error.
We review the definition of atheist and agnostic here.
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Although I went to the Randi forums and read...now I'm a bit more riled up. The way they present it makes it look like they are suggesting that as a standard definition of atheism. http://www.atheists.org/atheism Yuck. I sent a letter to them requesting that they move it or something, not that anyone will care.
If they want to make it an American Atheists organizational mission statement or something fine, but as it is people will just quote mine it to show that, 'atheism is a religion'.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
An individual can disbelieve in God and still believe in UFOs, alien abductions and ectoplasm from ghosts. Is that person an atheist in your books?
Yes. They might be a stupid, irrational, gullible atheist but they are an atheist.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Well, a David Silverman responded to me and said he updated the page to address my concerns (although I doubt I'm the only person to bug him). The page as it stands now is quite a bit more palatable. I'd still probably prefer that he seperate the whole supreme court case into a different page, and possibly cut out the bits about naturalism (Edit: Although atheism does sort of imply naturalism, so I'm not terribly hostile to that in all honesty), but it is much better with some minor alterations!
The page as it stands now:
What is Atheism
Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity, which implies that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own.
The following definition of Atheism was given to the Supreme Court of the United States in the case of Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203, 83 S. Ct. 1560, 10 L.Ed.2d (MD, 1963), to remove reverential Bible reading and oral unison recitation of the Lord's Prayer in the public schools:
“Your petitioners are Atheists and they define their beliefs as follows. An Atheist loves his fellow man instead of god. An Atheist believes that heaven is something for which we should work now – here on earth for all men together to enjoy.
An Atheist believes that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction, and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and enjoy it.
An Atheist believes that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment.
He seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist believes that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist believes that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man.
He wants an ethical way of life. He believes that we cannot rely on a god or channel action into prayer nor hope for an end of troubles in a hereafter.
He believes that we are our brother's keepers; and are keepers of our own lives; that we are responsible persons and the job is here and the time is now.”
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
My problem with this definition is that one may propose the existence of a purely natural [organic
] god. I actually think that many believers are pretty sure that their god is physical, and haven is a physically existing place, and afterlife occurs naturally. Totally agreeing with Brian, I would not go beyond "Atheism is the lack of belief in a deity", and I would not imply anything about the meaning of this. One can easily believe in miracles and still have the lack of belief in a deity. For example, my daughter believes in tooth fairy and does not believe in god.
I understand your concern, but yes they are an atheist. I once met an atheist that didn't believe in evolution and didn't have an alternative theory to it. I've met an atheist that believed he was abducted by aliens. There are plenty of atheists that believe in UFOs. There are atheists that believe Mayan calendar 2012 is significant. Get this, I've even met atheists who voted for George Bush. Further, before I started RRS I thought atheists were all very bright and rational, however I now know that to be very far from the truth.
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That definition makes atheism sound like a morality cult to me. Not that I disagree with any of those sentiments but a definition of the word atheist should just be a person who believes in no gods.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
You and David Silverman deserve a gigantic round of applause. I loved Ellen Johnson, but I brought this up (as did many others) many times and nothing was ever done when she was at the helm.
edit in: I posted about this thread on my facebook, I'm just that stoked.
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Whoever wrote that needs to talk to Luminon for a while. For that matter, aren't there some Christians who are monists? They think that this universe is the only one and that heaven will physically be located on the Earth. I'm pretty sure that there are a few who think that.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."
British General Charles Napier while in India
Wow, a really long, really bad definition. Let's see.
That's naturalism, not atheism.
No, I don't think that's synonymous with naturalism.
Okay, good enough.
That's philosophical naturalism. I'm a scientific naturalist. I think there could be things which exist outside of the natural world, but we simply cannot know anything about them, by definition.
Instead of God? Can't theists love their fellow men too?
I agree with all of these things, but..gee, why include it in the definition of atheism?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Okay, I like that it includes "lack of belief in a deity" now, the actual definition of atheism, but then it states that it "implies" all of those things. I really don't agree with that at all; I mean, they're essentially non sequiturs at this point. Lack of belief in a deity only "implies" that you don't believe in non-natural things that are deities. You can still believe in any other non-natural things and still be an atheist. It says nothing about thought. It says nothing about what happens after you die.
It's silly. It's like the definition admits that atheism is only "lack of belief in a deity," but then, still sneaks all this baggage in through the back door.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
He even knows atheists that are socialists that still work for a living instead of relying upon welfare. lol.
Sorry. Had to throw myself in there.
I genuinely feel bad because I haven't kept up with AA and changes in their 'interpretations'.
I remember that my original objections were a disagreement concerning 'atheism as a religion' and one of their representatives vilifying my friends at the fledgling RRS on a certain infidel's radio/podcast.
I remain as 'not averse to them', but far from 'with them'.
Call me skeptical about it. lol.
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Is anyone else being amused at Brian Face Palming himself over the frustration of trying to explain this on FaceBook?
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Sometimes atheists make me wish I was a mindless Christian.
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Yes, you have to be nice to me forever now.
I didn't know you were mean to me in the first place.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
HA!.... I wasn't... I was just teasing, bro...
... (nice work)
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
This is what believers don't get. They assume that all atheists go around claiming to be "know it alls" and thatwe all have the same degree of education and we all believe the same things.
No, all the word "atheist" refers to is lack of belief in god/s. It says nothing about the individual atheist's reasons for rejecting god claims. It says nothing about their level of education. Nor does it preclude an atheist of believing other absurd claims outside the issue of gods.
I don't give someone a pass merely because they say, "I don't believe in a god or gods". If they claim that Ouija boards work or that Crop circles are real, I will tear their claims a new one like any other bad claim.
I have blasted other atheists for claiming that the Transporter from Star Trec could be a reality. I have blasted atheists for claiming that Rodenberry predicted the modern cell phone. I have blasted other atheists on issues of politics.
The only thing atheists have in common is that we reject god claims. Outside that we are just as diverse in our class status, or job status, our level of education, and our likes and dislikes in things like politics, entertainment and sports. We are as much individuals as any other label.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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That's a lot of blasting!
I agree though, plenty of atheists are idiots, just like plenty of theists are intelligent.
Lots of us here are atheists, but we are *really* some sort of naturalistic, rationalist, moral relativist and the consequence of that is atheism, not the other way around. But plenty of atheists would argue with rationalism and moral relativism, and some would even argue about naturalism.
I think it is a problem when people like the AoA try to explicitly link atheism and humanism, but I have sympathy for their position...it is rough to make a group that is about nothing more than atheism because honestly, that isn't a platform that anyone will get motivated about. But if you try to get people to come under a blanket life philosophy you get a lot of blowback because it doesn't work for all parties. I don't have any answer. I wish I did, because if there were some way to unite atheists into a voting block we would have a great deal of power. But like they say, herding cats....
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
.......................Not the Atheist response squad. I have pointed this out before!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am realy frustrated right now because I always thought that ATHEIST ment "A theology" [no theology] and I was realy irritated when respectable members here claimed that atheisim ment "no belief in a god; ---i.e. leaving out every religion that does not have a god but a whole lot of theology and woo woo.
........ but it turns out my favorite reference ---Canadian Oxford dictionary; carries the same deffinition.
I DISAGREE WITH THIS DEFFINITION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ATHEISIM IS A CLEAR dis-avowel of any religion, any god, any belief system that disreguards any provable scientific theory; All and any belief system must pass established scientific standards, or fall into the strata of dogma or a leap of faith. I personally am far too big and far too old to be leaping ANYWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!
I further propose that Brian Sapient, establish a clear deffination of " ATHEIST" ; for this site. In my opinion, and I am a dues paying member Brian37, mellested, butterbattle [art thu-ist?] THAT deffinition should include " No god, No theology whatsoever! " .
Feel free to disagree with me then ante up ' yea cheap ...................
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
@Jeffrick: What's up with the formatting?
Obviously you can define the word any way you like, but the accepted definition is a lack of belief in a deity. We have other words to cover a lack of belief in anything supernatural. I'm not sure if offering to bribe Brian Sapient into posting your definition will make much difference in the grand scheme of things
Anyway, what we need to resolve this is an atheist holy war. Sagan Akbar?
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Randi {Toronto born} akbar!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And your mother wears a dress!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nyah hahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!! Atheisim should be defined as no theology whatsoever!!
I'm RICH [sortta] and I am conservitive so I can bribe anyone I want. It is required from birth.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
I like the OED definition for atheism which is laid out here.
One reason why I couldn't easily state that all atheists disavow religion is because of the atheistic buddhists who are religious. I think we should merely view atheism as anyone is without a belief in a god. It's that simple. But shit man, for the right price I'll say atheism is whatever you want me to say. Everyone can be bought it's just a matter of price.
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I guess it's just a matter of selecting your price - eternal life while walking streets paved with gold - or lolling on a bejewelled ottoman between a river of wine and a river of honey beating off the wasps and planning which 3 dark-eyed houris are going to get the benefit of your highly evolved ministrations later that night. If there is a night, that is.
Maybe we're tapping into the root of theism itself. It's been based on our selfish, capitalistic trading urges all along.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Oops... this looks wrong.
As an example, religious fanatics will chose to die but not to say "whatever" about their religion.
But, are you talking about atheists? Do you imply that the idea of patriotism, for example, does not come along with atheism?
Also, I am not for sale; I mean that my morals are not for sale. They are not absolute morals, they may change with time, but hey there is no price for which I will happily agree to say "whatever" someone wants me to say.
I don't want to derail this, it's not as important as where mellestad took this thread but I do believe everyone has a price for [just about] everything. If you think it's not for sale, think of a higher price. I'm not saying this is some sort of absolute, but I do think it's easier to reject the concept of selling yourself or a part of yourself when the offer isn't real.
Just for kicks 100percentatheist, how much would I need to pay you to state aloud "there is a god and I worship him" ?
I bet I could find hoards of atheists to make that statement for less then $200... hoards I tell you.
edit in: Upon pondering this, I am able to think of several things I wouldn't do for any price, most of those things carry long prison sentences. This thread direction started with something much smaller like "saying something for a price."
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This one is easy.
There is God and I worship Him!
It's free.
In this, I have no moral position, because I do not see any sense other than some commercial/political sense in religion; so, I feel free to say probably whatever you ask me to say on THIS particular theme. It does not hurt anyone.
The problem begins when words can potentially hurt people. If, for example, you ask a professor to tell his working-hard-but-failing student to go and kill himself because he is a useless sack of crap, I am not sure if you will be able to negotiate the price that will do the kill.
I was editing my post as you posted yours. See my edited edition.
Why did you choose to lodge an objection to me saying (joking) I would say atheism was X for a price, when you would say there is a god for free?
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okay, I see it now, so basically we agree on that not everything can be bought.
My objection was mainly because of this your sentence "Everyone can be bought it's just a matter of price. ". This implies not only that you can buy anyone to say any nonsense that does not hurt anyone, but also it implies you can buy anyone to DO anything or say something important like "nuke 'em Mr.President".
...ah anyway. a Muslim cab driver was attacked though he spend 25 years in the US ... i am just a russische Schweine and you can delete my account and block my ip ... it's just a matter of price.
Edit: And, by the way, I do believe this discussion about the price of human principles is precisely within the frame of the OP because it may advance our understanding of atheists' moral principles and the diversity of opinions on this important topic that is often is discussed from the standpoint of Christian moral principles.
I truly love this message Board, and I am humbled by many of the intellects who regularly post here...
But Jesus Christ on a pogo stick gang... we can over-think, and belabor a topic to the point of madness....
Mellestad... Nice Work Dude... May this day bring you much loss of DNA, and many broken commandments....
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
"... to the point of madness ..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNBWf54RvsI
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
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