Bush, Republicans destroyed economy
Offline I am 71 years old, and have voted Republican more times than Democrat. But I believe the Bush administration is responsible for destroying our economy by getting our nation into a war with Iraq and giving tax cuts we could not afford to the rich. It took the Republican administration eight years to destroy our economy and neither President Obama nor any other president can get us out of this mess in 21 months. I believe Obama's policies are working, but it will take time. I also believe if the Republicans take control of Congress in November, it will be just a matter of time before we seniors see Social Security privatized or our benefits cut. Medicare would be next.
~ T.R. Hilleren
http://www.jacksonsun.com/article/20100912/OPINION03/9120309
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Bush & co didn't cause overvaluation in so many different economies+
Social Security is already in the red... I believe it's just a matter of time before quite a remainder of the national government goes into the red as well. To wit; "there's no such thing as a free lunch"
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Poppy Bush = Recession,
Clinton = Surplus,
Bush Jr. = Recession,
Obama = Recovery
Republicans are for sale and on corporate welfare in some noxious continuum where people have to grasp blindly for breathable air.
Recovery... rriiiiigggghhhttt. The must be why the GOP is well on the way to coming back in power, naturally.
Clinton did have a surplus (as did Bush Sr. before him), however it's been attributed to 'dumb luck' over and over by people with a bit more knowledge and credibility in economics.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Maybe the Republicans will do a better job someday.
We'll see.
Maybe as long as there is no relation to any more of the Bush, Reagan, or any of the other dumb fucks family tree.
If all the Christians who have called other Christians " not really a Christian " were to vanish, there'd be no Christians left.
Like the Dems, they have been fucking things up more than they used to, lately... much more, in fact.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
This.
The economy goes up and down, and nobody fully understands why or really has a clue what they're doing.
We need a science party; one that does more than writing random and untested hypotheses into law.
I am of the mind that neither party serves the interests of the country, rather the political process itself is part of a collusionary system that is designed to keep the controlling interests (wealthiest 1%) in power and the populace ignorantly engaging in Glenn beck/Keith Olberman arguments over the merits of despicabnle human beings... I offer This article from the Washington post: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jul/20/defense-calls-lobbyists-gifts-honest-services/ which went relatively un noticed by most, yet significantly undermines the very concepts of democracy and capitolism by virtually making collusion legal.
Again, to my thinking, the "Public faces" of the republicans and democrats are nothing more than marketing... and ultimately their primary task is to polorize and posture...their interests are not as far apart as we have been led to believe... its like pro Wrestling...and we are the crowd shouting at a referee who can't see that the bad guy from the other party has taken brass knuckles out of his boots... Although one can equate specific lobbies and special interest groups to each party... the truth is that these very same interests are never abandoned when the other parties are in power...
To blame either party is silly, as is invoking the "revered" names of Reagan or Clinton ... The arguments for, and against every president's policy, especially where it concerns the economy are largely valid...
To me, until the words "Collusion" and "Audit" are brought into the political discussion regularly in regards to undermining our socio/economic process and how our money is spent... well then we might as well bet our 401K money on this Monday Night Raw's main event...
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
I also would like to point out, that the "Honest Services" act was pased *UNANIMOUSY* in the supreme court... so much for partisan "Liberal & Conservative" judges...
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
Bullseye!
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
I'll go one better - No US political party serves the interests of the country.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
During Reagan there were two recessions.
George H W Bush had a recession.
No recession during Clinton's presidency and we get a surplus that the Republicans throw out the window.
George W Bush had two recessions ( 2001 and 2008 ).
Remember the dot com bubble? Burst in 2000. Not that I blame Clinton. We put entirely too much emphasis on the President having control over the economy. In reality, the President has very little power over the economy and can only affect a few factors. Tax rates, government spending, government regulation and setting interest rates are the only controls government has to affect the economy and the first three are primarily acts of congress. The crash we are in now has been a long time coming and is the "fault" of the everyone in congress and the presidency for the last 20+ years. It doesn't take a rocket scientist (or even economist) to realize that American public has been overextending themselves with debt throughout the 90's. The 90's were so great economically because everyone was spending money they hadn't earned yet thus artificially increasing consumption. Money that now needs to be earned today. The crash occurred when new loans were no longer available, forcing the average family to live within their means for the first time in a long time and start paying off their debt. More money going to pay off debt means less money to spend means slower economy. What we are in now is a hangover we are suffering from borrowing too much money.
I believe the main culprit is the addiction to low interest rates. Every time the economy started slowing down the fed would cut rates to encourage more borrowing rather than let a minor slowdown occur. Free economies naturally rise and fall because supply and demand is never perfect rather it is in constant flux and businesses will always over correct. Because politicians don't want to be blamed for a slowing economy our government adopted policies to artificially increase demand by making debt cheaper. Well eventually that money has to be paid back which means buying more today will lead to less money in the future.
Now you think Obama's policies are working where Bush's failed??? Obama is doing the same damn thing Bush did only on a slightly larger scale. Bush kept low interest rates, spent massive amounts of government money creating a larger debt and bailed out large corporations. Obama is keeping interest rates low, is spending massive amounts of money making the debt climb even faster and bailed out large corporations. Oh, and passing a healthcare law that is guaranteed to destroy an entire industry.
Also the Dems are likely to raise taxes which will have the effect of slowing the economy in the short term. Raising taxes ALWAYS leads to a short term slowing of the economy. When you tax an act that act occurs less often because it is more expensive in real terms. When you increase income taxes people on average will make less income. Now eventually the market will adjust to it and that doesn't mean we shouldn't consider taxes as a way to lower our debt which is a HUGE problem (at least for those of us who will be alive to pay it) but we have to be honest and realize that it would lead to slowing the economy...again. Personally, I don't think it is worth it and the government should tackle the debt problem by spending less.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Yes, Sweden went through a rather nasty recession very similar to our real estate bubble bursting back in the 90's. I'm not as familiar with Norway but a quick check of their GDP shows a swing from a growth of 5.4% in 2007 to -1.5% in 2009 which would indicate a recession.
Economic swings are inevitable as long as consumers have the freedom to choose what to buy and when. The reason swings occur is because supply and demand is never perfect. When a business produces more than they can sell they have to cut production or lower prices. Eventually it can't or is unwilling to lower prices so it cuts production by laying off people and thus slow its portion of the economy because not only are the workers of the one business laid off but all the other businesses that are associated with it experience a decrease in demand for their products and have to make the same choices. Also, the businesses that are frequented by the laid off employees will probably experience a decrease in demand. A recession in the simplest terms is when enough businesses see a need to decrease production because the demand for their product is not there that the entire national economy is effected.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Agreed.
OK, the idea of a science party sounds tempting. However, I would be concerned about actually putting it into place.
Who is going to run the show? If that is the actual scientists, then they are doing less science and more politics (for the record, political science is neither). If it is the science administration types, then that brings in the same problems they are coming up with now.
As an example of the latter, I just read a piece in some magazine about the ethics of pluripotent stem cells. It seems that some total fuckwad realized that if they can become “any cell type at all” that means that they can become egg and sperm cells. Oh great, just fucking great. Here is a technology that can bring us useful treatments and pull the teeth from the right to life crowd at the same time. So what do we do? Give them another reason to get their panties in a twist over the matter.
What really worries me is the third possibility. We start a science party but somehow, the same people who spend years in school learning administrative core course material will remain in power. Basically, the whole show is going to be run by bankers and lawyers just as it is today. Somehow they managed to worm their way into power in the first place and I doubt that they will let go easily or not try again if forced to do so.
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Government is x and it's always going to be x -- so why bother.... ?
I would've said that you have killed the thread, but then...
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
When you pick & choose your data (like what theists do) economic upsets can be illustrated under either party's watch.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
That's true.
Over the course of time we come up with this most peculiar eyesore.
Under Reagan there were two recessions. George H W Bush had a recession. There was no recession during Clinton's presidency and we get a surplus that the Republicans throw out the window. George W Bush had two recessions.
Have Republicans lost their minds?
Yeah, I think it is pretty much dead. Cygo seems incapable of doing anything other than repeating political hack sound bites and not even good ones at that and completely unwilling to address any arguments (kind of like a theist). With the amount of ignorance about basic economics out there and blind loyalty to politicians it is no wonder that our country is having these problems.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Lol, RRS political threads are always so rational.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
"Critical thinking sucks!"
edit; actually, can you say you're surprised? With present day politics having devolved into demonizing one's opposition (offline and on) in such a way that would make Cartman jealous, it's a wonder anyone would debate with anything less than a megaphone.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
No, I'm not surprised. Political debate outside of the Internet is just a bunch of people shouting past one another (Like you said) based mostly on dogmatic ideologies...I'm surprised debate on the Internet isn't just a series of death threats.
Ayn Rand is Christ!
George W. is the Devil!
Barrack !!!HUSSEIN!!! Obama is an OBOMINATION!!!
Anyone with a four figure bank account is a SLAVE OWNER!!!
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
If you have a 4 figure bank account, can I be your slave?
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
If you remember in the 90's and early 2000s, people complained about houses being too expensive, couples working 2 jobs couldn't afford to save for a down payment. So supposedly, we needed government programs to get everyone into homes. This was the 'good' economy. Now, homes are affordable but few have a good job to afford them.
So it would seem in good times and bad, there is a lot of stress about the state of the economy. It is just a function of living in a competitive world. If we get the unemployment rate back down to 5%, we create inflation and drive up rents/housing prices so the poor are no better off. There is no such thing as a 'good' economy.
Suppose you had a colony of mice you had to contain in a small area. The goal was to keep them from starving or killing each other. If you don't kill the mice, the only other way to achieve this goal is sterilization/birth control. But doing this with humans is a taboo subject. So we must live in a world of poverty, conflict and war until we can.
Politics in it's present form is about one group of people demanding something for nothing at the expense of others. Guns are the ultimate source of all political power. Politics is really war by other means.
It's not a discussion of developing rational social contracts where entities of equal value are traded. People need to drop the idea of using government as a tool to get something for nothing. Government should be more like eBay where things of near equal value are traded.
So nice idea about the 'science' party, but people are too stubborn to change.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
That is pretty cheap cj, I thought you'd have more pride than offering eternal servitude for a measly grand!
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
More like bullshiite.
Both parties are serving the interests of the country.
At this time, a measly grand would be much appreciated. Sigh.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Well, I would not mind having a slave. Do I remember that you run a shipping company? I am getting grief from a company that has asserted that shipping is always through UPS.
Shoot me a PM and we can talk...
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Nah, it's my uncle and cousins who run it now. I'm just the poor, unemployed IT relative. No help, sorry.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Are you saying that the interests of the country are shooting themselves in the feet?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Not exactly.
Some radical ultraconservatives would round up scientists and engineers for the furnaces.
Agreeing with the topic of this thread, I pointed out the recessions under Republican presidents from Reagan on.
Bush Jr.'s, for example, is regarded as "The Great Recession" -- the worst since the Great Depression.
Conservatives tend to destroy the country's supports, causing the nation to falter. Thus, a conservative government isn't something anyone can rely heavily on.
More technocracy would prevent much of the uncertainty.
Of course, the radical ultraconservatives (ie. NAZI's, Libertarians, Tea Partiers, etc) are very destructive, but I don't think the mainstream voters will let them take America.
Both parties are, overall, OK with me, especially if they don't get too moonie or indulge too much in paranormal research while in office.
Both parties are serving the interests of the country and Independents swing.
Let the people rule.
No, you don't want the people to rule anymore than you want a dictator to rule. Which is why the U.S. Constitution has an "anti-trust" principle built into it. Our system is one of guiding and consent, not one party or one class ruling, not even the voter is an absolute ruler. It was written to prevent monopolies of power, including preventing mob rule by vote.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Well said.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
How's the gulf these days?
The panel of economists that is the widely accepted arbiter of business cycles has called an end to what is now officially the longest U.S. economic downturn of the post-World War II era. The recession ended in June 2009, 18 months after it began in December 2007, according to the National Bureau of Economic Research's business cycle dating committee.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/political-economy/2010/09/its_official_the_great_recessi.html
Big woopdy shit. So we go on another bubble binge, create more crappy low paying jobs, send more jobs overseas and keep a gallon of milk costing more than a gallon of gas, sounds peachy.
This is short term, long term as long as the pay gap keeps exploding and we do nothing to keep the cost of living down, let the corporate class keep dictating an anarchy no rules policy, whatever we gain during our "recovery" wont keep us from sliding off the cliff, it will only delay it.
The corporate class won't be happy until the workers end up in sweat shops so we can compete with China and their slave labor.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
You've just uttered the "Tea Party Libertarian" platform.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
How do you figure that? The Tea bag nutbags are for anarchy. Anytime someone asks how we are going to pay for tax cuts none of these nutbags have an answer. Let the rich be rich and fuck the middle class and poor.
Less government requires self control which the corporate class does not have. Until they are willing to put back into society their slash and burn policy will only create more of a pay gap and make more and more slaves out of society.
They turn Wal Street into a casino. They won't be happy until you and I make 6 cents an hour. Then they bitch when the middle and poor class want protection from them? How the fuck does that match up to the Tea Bager movement?
Tea Bagers want no speed limits. I want speed limits. The only practical thing they can and should do is control themselves , which they cant. They are caught up in the right wing Beck bullshit.
It isn't a matter for me of bigger vs smaller government, it is a matter of the people who have the money to stop bitching and tighten their belts themselves and give back to those who put them where they are at. If they don't want to do it on their own, what the fuck do they expect the other classes to do?
We are headed to slave labor, putting it down in corporate legal ease doesn't make it moral, it merely means our government has been bought off by the corporate class. I am far from a Tea Bager, and don't want to be associated with fans of Marie Antoinette and "let them eat cake".
Tea Bagers are tired of Republicans, not because they are not Repubicans, they are. They are tired of both parties because they haven't managed to make slavery legal again. Our pay gap is slavery, but they don't want to see it as such.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I posted earlier that we entered recovery on October '08. But, according to this article Bush's recession ended June '09.
Sorry all.
And we might have worms.
Republicans seem always for sale to the highest bidders and now that corporations and the super wealthy can pump hefty amounts of cash into their political advertising, America Herself is practicly for sale.
The bigwigs have a big shot at pushing us all around. This is their best time ever.
Just one example:
A ballot initiative to suspend a milestone California law curbing greenhouse gas emissions is drawing a wave of contributions from out-of-state oil companies, raising concerns among conservationists as it emerges as a test of public support for potentially costly environmental measures during tough economic times.
Charles and David Koch, the billionaires from Kansas who have played a prominent role in financing the Tea Party movement, donated $1 million to the campaign to suspend the Global Warming Solutions Act, which was passed four years ago, and signaled that they were prepared to invest more in the cause. With their contribution, proponents of the proposition have raised $8.2 million, with $7.9 million coming from energy companies, most of them out of state.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/17/us/17pollute.html?_r=1&ref=earth
Disturbing.
Oh.... and the Democrats aren't for sale... I keep forgetting that they dont accept huge donations from lobbyists... Just those mean nasty Republicans... Thanks a diaper load for that revelation....
You Know Cygo.... many of us will agree with the premise that the GOP is probably *worse* for the economy...and that they may even have more than their share of political shenanigans at the expense of the country's well being... But the Wingnut "Liberals Good/Conservatives Bad" black and white moral myopia just ain't gonna cut it dude... Just a suggestion... Note the word "Rational" in the web site name....
Oh, and Brian.... Don't confuse the Libertarians with the Tea party.... There are a lot of teabaggers who refer to themselves as Libertarians, and have no idea what it means...the same way that they are christians and havent read the bible... Hell... That lummox Glenn beck calls himself a Libertarian...then again he also considers himself sane... I'm not saying the Libertarians can't boast their share of morons... Just that the tea Party idiots aren't nessasarilly Libertarian....
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
Wow.
Was I just married off to Brian?
I think both fans of both parties eat up the utopia crap their politicians sell. Once the bad times are over they both go back to the old playbook which for the past 30 years has done nothing but make the pay gap worse and the cost of living worse.
"limited government" sounds nice on paper, but as I said, and will continue to say, government is the only tool any citizen of any class has as a reff. Unless the corporate class do more on their own to take care of the workers that make their profits, the other two classes will have no choice but to seek protection from being exploited.
It would be less expensive for the corporate class to do the right thing on their own, and if they did, the government wouldn't be called upon by the other classes. The very thing the corporate class says it doesn't want they are doing to themselves.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Agreed... But "Limited" is an ambiguous word... we've seen the financial suicide of allowing industries to self regulate... I propose, that when applicable... Government be "limited" to a regulatory role... Industry appropriate rules put in place, and Oversight with a firm hand ... ot to mention *REAL* punishment (jail) for corperate pigs who undermine our financial structure for personal gain...
The options that we are curently presented with are Total Lessee faire, or overnment ownership... I simply submit that there is a reasonable comprimise which will not only protect the populace from runaway corperate profiteering, but protect the industries from themselves...
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
Both Republicans and Democrats are excellent people with real smart ideas. I just can't knock them both down.
I don't see why anyone would want to wipe them both out.
Even though the GOP's presidents' stats from Reagan on are indeed very poor on the economy it's far better than the Libertarian and Tea Party clusters out there.
And the Independents swing.
America rules.
But keep an eye on those Gold members. They burn huts for fun.