Sonic Drive-in Complaint!

Sandycane
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Sonic Drive-in Complaint!

I stopped at Sonic this afternoon and parked in the first slot, facing the front of the building with the big window. While I'm looking around, waiting for my burger, I read what's painted on the window:

'He Died For You!'

In big red letters, with white lilies, doves and a sunburst.

Made me want to vomit!

When I got home, I sent an email to the company and received this reply:

We are very sorry that your 10/16/2010 visit to the Sonic Drive-In in XXX, Tennessee did not live up to expectations and are grateful to you for telling us about it. If people like you did not bring these matters to our attention, we would never be able to fix them. We have forwarded your comments to the appropriate store supervisor for the location that you visited. If you have any further concerns in the future, please share them with us. Our goal is to continuously improve the Sonic Drive-In experience and to keep you as regular guest.

Sincerely,
Sonic Drive-In
Customer Service Manager

 

Obviously an automated reply and if it is up to the individual store manager to remove it, it won't be removed, I'm sure.

I guess all I can do is check on it in a few days and if it's still there, complain again.

Any other suggestions?


Blake
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Sandycane wrote:Even though

Sandycane wrote:

Even though atheism is not a religion, it is a personal belief and I think it should be held to the same restrictions that I think religion should be held to: Don't shove it in other peoples' faces - especially those of a different belief. Just common courtesy. There are some things, I think, that don't need to be made public knowledge... which reminds me of an old Italian saying, which fits perfectly in this situation:'Don't shit where you eat'.

 

What do you mean that it's a personal belief?

You could say that it's a "personal belief" that the sky is blue or that the Earth is (roughly) spherical.  It's also a "personal belief" that meth isn't particularly healthy, and that lighting the office on fire isn't a good way to warm it up in the winter.

 

Should we just never correct anybody, ever, no matter what strange contortions of fact they may subscribe to? 

No no, we should never tell Luke that setting the rec room on fire is dangerous- it's his personal belief that rec room bonfires are the best way to dissolve his meth, which is something he personally believes is necessary to prevent him from sliding off the edge of this flat earth into the yellow skies underground.

 

Facts are facts- some people have them dangerously wrong, and those mistaken beliefs can adversely affect the people around them.

If we were to tip toe around everybody's person beliefs, we could never teach each other anything, and before too terribly long we'd be back in the dark ages because the signal to noise ratio would destroy any hope of scientific progress, or even holding on to what we have.


Sandycane
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Blake wrote:Sandycane

Blake wrote:

Sandycane wrote:

Even though atheism is not a religion, it is a personal belief and I think it should be held to the same restrictions that I think religion should be held to: Don't shove it in other peoples' faces - especially those of a different belief. Just common courtesy. There are some things, I think, that don't need to be made public knowledge... which reminds me of an old Italian saying, which fits perfectly in this situation:'Don't shit where you eat'.

 

What do you mean that it's a personal belief?

You could say that it's a "personal belief" that the sky is blue or that the Earth is (roughly) spherical.  It's also a "personal belief" that meth isn't particularly healthy, and that lighting the office on fire isn't a good way to warm it up in the winter.

Yes, that's what I meant by 'personal belief'.

 

Quote:
Should we just never correct anybody, ever, no matter what strange contortions of fact they may subscribe to?  No no, we should never tell Luke that setting the rec room on fire is dangerous- it's his personal belief that rec room bonfires are the best way to dissolve his meth, which is something he personally believes is necessary to prevent him from sliding off the edge of this flat earth into the yellow skies underground.   

Facts are facts- some people have them dangerously wrong, and those mistaken beliefs can adversely affect the people around them.

If we were to tip toe around everybody's person beliefs, we could never teach each other anything, and before too terribly long we'd be back in the dark ages because the signal to noise ratio would destroy any hope of scientific progress, or even holding on to what we have.

Of course not...which is why I complained about the sign. That's also why I spent a year and countless hours gathering information to deliver to the local water department to get them to stop dumping fluoride in the water supply. No luck there, though.

As for 'tip-toeing' around, there is a time and a place for everything. If it is inappropriate for Sonic to have a religious mural it would be just as inappropriate for them to display an atheistic one...imo. This type of 'advertising is not business related and in fact can harm the business financially. As Sonic so clearly agreed.

Thanks for doing the research on court cases...good info.

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


Beyond Saving
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Blake wrote:Beyond Saving

Blake wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

@ Blake-

You would have a really hard time in court proving that the sign creates a hostile working environment independent of some other actions of management. If the company decided to fight it you would probably lose.

 

Not necessarily- a large part would depend on the judge, and the particulars of the case.  If there were other atheists on staff- that the owner knew were atheists- then that could be an argument against hiring discrimination; though the chances of that are at least somewhat unlikely.

As far as a hostile working environment goes, though, this is still a fairly hot issue today, and the Supreme court is a little murky on it.

You can find numerous new and old documents and articles on it- a quick Google search gives me this as one of my first hits:

http://ecmappdlv03.law.nyu.edu/ecm_dlv3/groups/public/@nyu_law_website__journals__journal_of_legislation_and_public_policy/documen...

 

That's actually a pro-religious 'proselytism and special treatment' article bitching about the Supreme court's interpretations of harassment and discrimination not giving preferential treatment to religion, but it makes the point.

 

that article wrote:
because of the power differential between employers and employees, courts tend to view an employer’s religious expression as inherently more coercive than the religious expression of employees.[...]

courts are more concerned with prohibiting hostile work environment harassment than with accommodating religious employees.[...]

Second, the Supreme Court has been reluctant to read Title VII in a manner that would provide religious employees with “preferential”
or “special” treatment[... it] is not an oversight, but rather a specifically articulated policy.[...]

The Court took pains to reach the conclusion that Title VII was enacted to prohibit
employment discrimination generally and not to provide religion with any favored treatment.

 

And that is to say, religious harassment is no different than sexual harassment in the eyes of the courts.

that article wrote:

The guidelines state that sexual harassment which does not result in an economic injury is nonetheless actionable if “such conduct has the purpose or effect of
unreasonably interfering with an individual’s work performance or creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working environment.”

[...]

As explained in Part I, the Supreme Court determined that in sexual harassment cases the plaintiff must prove that the harassment
was “unwelcome,” a requirement which recognizes that some sexual comments in the workplace are, in fact, welcome.237 This differs from
cases of race-based harassment, national origin harassment, and animus- based religious harassment, where the unwelcome nature of the
speech is presumed.238

Courts which determine that a speaker should realize that his or her non-animus-based religious expression is unwelcome focus on Title VII as a broad anti-discrimination statute and treat non-animusbased
religious expression which others find harassing the same as racist, sexist, or other bigoted comments.

 

That is to say, they're bitching about the fact that in cases of sexual harassment, one may need to make it clear that the advances are unwelcome- while in cases of religious harassment- even, possibly, in cases where it isn't hate based- e.g. being constantly told about Jesus and how you should convert to be saved, or being constantly invited to church despite your rejections of the invitation.

 

I'm not keen on spending all evening reading court precedent on posters and sexual harassment, but here are a few links for you:

 

http://www.berea.edu/cataloghandbook/sturegs/srr/sexualharassment.asp wrote:
Visual conduct that can be harassing includes such actions as leering, staring at certain body parts, displaying sexual objects, offensive posters or pictures.

 

http://www.mypersonnelfile.com/harassment/sexual-harassment wrote:
Visual harassment includes exhibiting sexually-oriented visuals (e.g., posters, drawings, photos, clippings, screen-savers or emails of a sexual nature, such as pictures of nude or scantily-dressedwomen or men.

 

In other words, if the poster were sexual instead of religious, seems like most companies have policies against those kinds of thing- and those policies probably follow from court precedent.  And remember, as established, sexual and religious harassment are treated similarly.

 

As I said, I don't have time to read all night, but from what I've skimmed, all I can see if conservatives complaining about how the courts are interpreting religious harassment.

I haven't come across anything that would indicate such a lawsuit would be a likely loss- particularly if a complaint had been lodged (in which case it would be very likely to be a successful harassment suit). 

And in the case of the employer, and not just another employee, participating in the harassing action (hanging such an advertisement as a clearly coercive endorsement) WITH a complaint from the employee- do you really think a court would ignore that? 

Even with a conservative judge, it's very likely that kind of thing would be ordered down, as it has no place in that workplace.

 

I'm not sure what I need to do to convince you that the poster in question is not O.K.

The complication that comes in is that religion DOES enjoy special status and sex does not. So while a court would have a fairly easy time ruling in your favor if the sign could be shown to be sexual harassment a sign that basically announces the owners religion does not have the same effect. Especially in a place like Tennessee where the owner could make a case that professing his/her religion is actually good for the business. 

You are correct that if an employer were to repeatedly ask an employee to engage in a prayer or to go to church after an employee made it clear they didn't want to participate a lawsuit could be pressed. Which is why I specified independent of other actions by management. A sign, cross, nativity scene etc. would most likely be found to be free exercise of religion by the Supreme Court. No case about signs has made it to SCOTUS yet and I am not aware of any in the pipeline on this issue but I fail to see how a sign that professes your religion can be interpreted as anything other than free exercise. I haven't even been able to find a case that was brought up on similar grounds. The sign said "He died for you" not "non-Christians suck" or "believe in my God or else" or anything else coercive. It is simply stating the religious opinion of the owner on property that he/she owns. The First Amendment makes no distinction between freely exercising your religion in your home or at the business you own. 

As for suing them for not being hired all they would have to show is that they have no clue what religion their other employees were, that there is some diversity and there is some legitimate business reason not to hire you. Remember, in your scenario YOU were the one making a big deal of your religion or lack thereof. The employer didn't ask or comment on it. Now if the employer was so stupid as to get in a theistic argument with you and then not hire you now you might have a case. Still BS in my opinion but legal. 

 

I have done a little research and could find no cases of anyone suing over a company printing a bible verse anywhere successfully. At least I couldn't find one in Google or the EEOC website. I would be interested in finding a similar case but it really isn't important enough for me to spend my free hours doing so. Wish I still had access to Lexis Nexis then I could give you a definitive answer. Oh well. If you are ambitious enough to ever try such a lawsuit (or actually convince someone to try it) let me know how it works out. I would bet against you if the company actually decided to fight it.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:The

Beyond Saving wrote:

The complication that comes in is that religion DOES enjoy special status and sex does not.

 

No, free speech in general enjoys a special status; everything I've seen on this issue is conservatives bitching about how religion isn't being given a special status by the courts over secular issues, and there's a good reason for that- it would be unconstitutional for them to do so.

Religion doesn't have special status over sexual expression.

 

Quote:
So while a court would have a fairly easy time ruling in your favor if the sign could be shown to be sexual harassment a sign that basically announces the owners religion does not have the same effect.

 

I know you read the wording of the sign, because you restated it- you seem to not be considering the meaning.

Merely announcing the owner's religion would be one thing- this is saying "He died for you"- that is, Jesus died as a sacrifice for you, the employee and the customer, or anybody reading this sign, to save you from eternal suffering if you accept his grace, and otherwise you'll go to hell.

Really?  That's not harassment to have to read that every day?

 

I think your concept of religious harassment has been dulled by years of exposure.

 

Where businesses are bound by non-discrimination laws, the courts hold that the employees rights to be free from religious harassment trumps the rights of others to express themselves where that expression becomes harassment.

Now, the employee would probably have to make clear to the management that he or she felt the poster was offensive and created a hostile environment- but after such a point if the issue was not addressed, it would become harassment.

 

Quote:
You are correct that if an employer were to repeatedly ask an employee to engage in a prayer or to go to church after an employee made it clear they didn't want to participate a lawsuit could be pressed.

 

How about repeatedly telling the employee that his or her religious beliefs are wrong and that Jesus died for him or her to save him or her from hell despite the employee complaining that this made him or her feel uncomfortable and unduly pressured?

How about doing it with a clearly visible sign that welcomes the employee to work every day?

It's not really a big difference.  It's harassment.

 

Quote:
Which is why I specified independent of other actions by management. A sign, cross, nativity scene etc. would most likely be found to be free exercise of religion by the Supreme Court.

 

This poster was not a mere cross or nativity scene (which would be a bit less intrusive).  It was a message to non-believers that Jesus died for them, and that their beliefs are incorrect.  YOU doesn't mean the owner- it's not a mere expression of the owner's faith, it's proselytism, it's directed at non believers to make them feel guilty, uncomfortable, and intimidate them with hellfire- and it's very personal.

 

Quote:
I fail to see how a sign that professes your religion can be interpreted as anything other than free exercise. I haven't even been able to find a case that was brought up on similar grounds. The sign said "He died for you" not "non-Christians suck" or "believe in my God or else" or anything else coercive. It is simply stating the religious opinion of the owner on property that he/she owns.

What you fail to see is that this is not merely professing the owner's religion.  You are clearly ignoring the personal and proselytizing context of the sign.  It is VERY coercive, and even more so because it is promoted by the employer!  If this was a fellow employee posting this on his or her cubicle in an office, it wouldn't be as actionable.

This is no mere statement of religious opinion.  It seems to be the nature of the sign that is our greatest point of disagreement.  As far as I'm concerned, it might as well say "You will burn in hell if you don't accept Jesus"- that interpretation is not only easy to argue, but obviously follows from the text.  I don't know why you aren't seeing that- any clear minded Judge would be able to consider the perception on the part of the employee, and the context behind the message.  More veiled and discrete intimidation and threats are just as unlawful.

 

Quote:
As for suing them for not being hired all they would have to show is that they have no clue what religion their other employees were, that there is some diversity and there is some legitimate business reason not to hire you.

 

Showing that they are ignorant of the beliefs of some employees doesn't do anything in their favor- that's only as much to the point as "don't ask, don't tell".  As I said, given the location, that diversity would seem a little unlikely.  If there was diversity in beliefs, and they had atheist employees, they would have to be aware of that fact to demonstrate that they allow known atheists to work there.  If that were so, one likely wouldn't have a case.

If they could show a legitimate business reason not to hire, obviously that is an argument- I am assuming some basic qualifications for pouring sodas and flipping grease though.  This isn't exactly a rare skill set- a trained monkey could do the job brilliantly- so that's a much more difficult argument for a Sonic to make than it is for a more respectable business.

The big glaring point of evidence against them would be the posters they display, and the clear proselytism they engage in as a branch of that company.  Given that, it would be a difficult case for the owners to argue, since they provided indication of likely discrimination without proving otherwise.  That sign acts to shift the burden of proof just a bit.

 


Beyond Saving
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 All right, I surrendered

 All right, I surrendered to my curiosity and looked up a few cases. The relevant cases are

 Brown Transp. Corp. v. Commonwealth, 578 A.2d 555, 562 (Pa. Commw. Ct. 1990) and

EEOC v. Townley 859 F.2d 610 (9th Circuit, 1988)

In Brown a worker was fired after he complained about bible verses being printed on his paycheck. It is a rather contentious case and you can find a myriad of arguments on both sides of it. So if you were to press a lawsuit like we are discussing Brown would probably be your main precedent. There simply does not seem to be other similar cases. This may be because most people don't see it as something worth suing over, companies immediately remove signs after a complaint or the cases are summarily dismissed by judges and thus don't attract any attention on the internet. 

 

The one point in Brown that would weaken your case is that the court found that the worker had been discriminated against because the employee could clearly show that after the complaint was formally made his formal employee reviews went from consistently high marks to consistently low marks. A compelling argument can be made that the only reason the court ruled in favor of the employee was because he was fired and not because of the bible verses alone.

 

In Townley, an atheist was suing over being forced to attend religious services. The court ruled that Townley could not force its employees to attend religious services. The relevant part to this case is that the company printed bible verses everywhere which was ignored by both the EEOC and the court. It was ruled that Townley could continue to have its religious services but could no longer make it a mandatory condition of employment. 

 

Also, if you look at the EEOC hand book it clearly states

Quote:
 workplace displays of religious artifacts or posters that do not demean other religious views generally would not constitute religious harassment.

and 

Quote:
 Employers are permitted to exercise their religion to the extent that such exercise does not infringe on their employees’ religious beliefs.  Townley, 859 F.2d at 621 (“Where the religious practices of employers . . . and employees conflict, Title VII does not, and could not, require individual employers to abandon their religion. Rather, Title VII attempts to reach a mutual accommodation of the conflicting religious practices.”(Townley, 859 F2d 610).

 

http://www.eeoc.gov/policy/docs/religion.html#_Toc203359506

 

So focusing on Brown you might have a chance, but given the EEOC policy, Townley and the First Amendment I think you would have a really hard time unless you could prove that the sign could be interpreted by a reasonable person to disparage or attack your religious beliefs. Most successful religious harassment cases I found involved repeated religious slurs and obviously derogatory comments. I don't think the sign rises to that and I would be stunned if a court found it did. And if it did, do you really want to go down that road? Personally, I would rather put up with an offensive sign and have the right to say "there is no god" or have a sign that says so if I want. We are the minority and have far more to lose by destroying free speech than the majority.

 

 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Interesting.  So if they

Interesting.  So if they posted John 3:16 it would be fine, but if they posted, well, half the versus in the O.T., you could probably make a case that you were threatened or persecuted?

 

Like If they had a little thing about Exodus 22:17 and you were Wiccan...

 

I wonder, if someone at a business has posters about how the Bible is the whole word of God, literal truth, etc. if you could make a case based on some of the horrible things it says, like they are promoting hate-speech against protected classes by promoting the book in its entirety?

 

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


Beyond Saving
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mellestad wrote:Interesting.

mellestad wrote:

Interesting.  So if they posted John 3:16 it would be fine, but if they posted, well, half the versus in the O.T., you could probably make a case that you were threatened or persecuted?

 

Like If they had a little thing about Exodus 22:17 and you were Wiccan...

 

I wonder, if someone at a business has posters about how the Bible is the whole word of God, literal truth, etc. if you could make a case based on some of the horrible things it says, like they are promoting hate-speech against protected classes by promoting the book in its entirety?

 

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

 

 

Yeah, it seems pretty messed up, but it is a government agency making the policy so what do you expect. It would be interesting if a case did make it to the Supreme Court. I'm not sure how they would treat posters directly from the bible that are threatening. On one hand, you are clearly exercising your religion and free speech which is directly protected by the First Amendment but on the other, the courts have already found that preventing discrimination is a compelling government interest. It would be a fun case to watch.

 

Personally, I always come down on the side of free speech. I think Title VII should be rewritten to make if much more difficult to sue over a "hostile work environment" but I am a radical.

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Brian37 wrote:Try our new

Brian37 wrote:

Try our new McFlesh waffers, made from real human flesh, remember "He died for you" and boy is he yummy.

This made me LOL.

 

I am with Atheistextremist though, both sides have good points... but the problem I see is that people are looking at this in terms of you-vs-me and that's exactly what theists like because it is what they do, it's their element.

I know that the best way to approach this is "do whatever you feel is right", this is an 'activist' forum after all so the topic fits perfectly and if somebody wants to battle something out then that should be fine, if they rather do the opposite then that should be fine too BUT neither should blame one another for doing so!

Both forms of approach would be correct. What would I do? it'd depend on too many factors like my current mood, etc. Even the colors... I may dismiss it as another futile attempt by theists to reassure themselves and go about my day, or I may react similarly as the original poster did, but either way I'd be doing the right thing... it's a free country after all.

Nothing is true, everything is permitted...


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Beyond Saving wrote: All

Beyond Saving wrote:

 All right, I surrendered to my curiosity and looked up a few cases. The relevant cases are

 Brown Transp. Corp. v. Commonwealth, 578 A.2d 555, 562 (Pa. Commw. Ct. 1990) and

EEOC v. Townley 859 F.2d 610 (9th Circuit, 1988)

Thanks, that's pretty interesting.

I'm not surprised by the precedent, and I really think our disagreement boils down to the reading of the sign.  I read it as personally threatening (particularly the "you" in the sign), and very demeaning and coercive.

While I don't think a jury would likely be capable of seeing that, I do think most honest judges would.  If it were something more subtle, I wouldn't argue against it.

 

EEOC handbook wrote:
 workplace displays of religious artifacts or posters that do not demean other religious views generally would not constitute religious harassment.

 

That's pretty ambiguous; but like I said, it's our respective reading of the sign.  I think you're desensitized Sticking out tongue

I think a court would advise a less invasive replacement, like "Christian owned business"- which wouldn't say anything about the person reading the sign, but just about the owner.

 

Beyond Saving wrote:
unless you could prove that the sign could be interpreted by a reasonable person to disparage or attack your religious beliefs.

 

With an understanding and application of the concepts it references, I think it clearly does- in ignorance, it wouldn't because the reader wouldn't understand it.

I think if the courts considered educated atheists, or those of other religions who were familiar with Christianity enough to understand the sign, they would find that interpretation is a reasonable one.

 

Beyond Saving wrote:
And if it did, do you really want to go down that road? Personally, I would rather put up with an offensive sign and have the right to say "there is no god" or have a sign that says so if I want.

 

"There is no god" is a true statement of fact which doesn't imply that people who believe in such a thing will burn forever in eternal torment, and it's very general and impersonal- it's not a prescriptive moral judgment in the same way as "he died for you" is.

The inverse equivalent would be more like "You're wasting your life believing in an imaginary god" - something personal and judgmental.  That's a statement of prescriptive judgment- that's the difference between stating a secular fact, and quoting biblical prescriptivism or stating opinions on something's worth-- that's the difference between scientific knowledge (which is objective, unbiased, and non-prescriptive), and religion (which is subjective, biased, and profoundly prescriptive).

 

Quote:
We are the minority and have far more to lose by destroying free speech than the majority.

 

Minority compared to religion, but there are many religious sects to argue amongst themselves- if you're talking about a coherent body of people who actually agree with each other about the foundations of what constitute reality, however, you'd be hard pressed to find a larger group (though we may disagree about everything else).

We have fact, evidence, and logic on our side- why is evolution taught in public schools?  Because it's true.

Why is it not taught that the Earth is 6,000 years old?  Because it's false.

 

There is something to be said for objective reality, and whenever superstition and science clash in court, there is an inevitable victor.

I'd be happy with a law that made public advertisements of falsehoods subject to civil and criminal prosecution. 

Every non-secular or non-scientific statement in the public eye would be torn down in little time, and Christians would be left quoting, "In the King James bible it says..." (true fact, it does say that), and preferably with a disclaimer that it is a literary quote that some people believe to be true, and not an assertion of fact about the world.