The Ontological Argument

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The Ontological Argument

Of all the God arguments being put forth by theistic philosophers, the ontological argument stands out to me as being the most fascinating. The argument is unique and salient among its class insofar that its existential conclusion, i.e., God has real existence, is inferred without recourse to empirical observation. For many, such an a priori argument is a paradigm example of sophistry and chicanery. After all, how can we acquire new knowledge about the cosmos without first examining its state of affairs? This basic conviction has led many people to not take the argument seriously. At the same time, it is difficult to pinpoint exactly where the argument goes wrong, since, without further justification, the proposition that knowledge can only come from experience seems to be a case of simple prejudice, or more specifically, an exemplary case of question begging. Evidently, refuting the argument requires more than just a mere hand wave; it requires the practice of some good philosophy.

My principal goal in writing this essay will consist in providing a greater understanding of the argument’s place in the discourse of metaphysics. First, I shall discuss an early formulation of the argument along with the various critiques that it would eventually become subject to. Secondly, I will attempt to do the same with the more contemporary formulations of the argument. Finally, I shall attempt to argue that, in spite of the dialectical stalemate that is inevitably encountered with regard to the argument’s soundness, the argument can still be perceived as valuable when considered in light of the very reason for which it was originally put forth in the eleventh century; for the believer to better understand his or her own religious convictions.

One of the earliest known versions of the argument can be traced back to St. Anselm of Canterbury. Anselm does not present the argument in any formalized way, but instead lays it out in an interpersonal dialogue with God. The dialogue occurs in Chapter 2 of Proslogion, where Anselm states that he understands God to be that than which nothing greater can be conceived. In other words, Anselm, following St. Augustine, understands God to be the exemplar of the fullness of being, the concept of which applies analogously to all that is but which can only apply to God infinitely. Thus, while worldly entities such as people enjoy the greatness of being in limited instances, such as in the instances of possessing limited knowledge or having a limited presence on some region of this planet, it is only God who enjoys being in its plenitude, i.e., possessing unlimited knowledge, unlimited power, omnipresence, etc. As such, it is not metaphysically possible for one to even conceive of a being greater than God.

Continuing the dialogue, Anselm makes the following argument: If the atheist (or "Fool," as it states in the Psalms) accepts that the utterance, “that than which nothing greater can be conceived,” constitutes a rightful description of God, then s/he inexorably adheres to a worldview based upon a contradictory postulate. For in granting the consistency of the description, the atheist has accepted that God exists as an abstract object in his or her mind. Furthermore, the atheist must, in order to successfully maintain his or her position, believe that God exists solely in his or her mind. But clearly, the premise that God is not anything more than a thought object is inconsistent with the aforementioned Augustinian conception of God, which, presumably, the atheist has just accepted. For it is, according to Anselm‘s representation of Augustine, greater to exist in reality than it is to exist solely in the mind. Moreover, even as the atheist steadfastly denies that God exists in reality in addition to the mind, s/he will not be hard pressed to acknowledge that God could be thought to exist in reality in addition to the mind. Thus, it becomes clear that the atheist is unable to deny the real existence of God without self-contradiction. In this case, a denial of God's real existence would amount to an affirmation that the being than which nothing greater can be conceived is such that it could be conceived to be greater.

 

I myself would agree that the efficacy of the argument depends strongly upon one’s set of presuppositions. Yet, is it possible to adopt, with no prima facie contradictions, any other worldview where one’s set of presuppositions allows s/he to infer the real existence of an object a priori? I do not believe that there is. This alone makes the argument unique and can help us understand that God, if conceivable at all, would be like nothing else that we can conceive. In essence, I find worth in the argument, not as a dialectical device but as a means of personal reflection. First, as I have just demonstrated, it sheds greater light on the nature of unbelief, showing that the epistemic chasm that exists between unbelievers and God is, indeed, an overall issue of one‘s own universe of discourse, itself not established within the parameters of Humean empiricism. Secondly, despite what Oppy says, it does help us gain a greater understanding of God’s nature, so long as we treat it as I’ve just specified. Then we are not simply proceeding from the premise that God is possible but also from the conclusion that God has real existence, which, in conjunction with the premises and the encompassing worldview, would somewhat elucidate to us just how excellent God really is. Thus, while the argument does not prove anything to anybody, I can still find worth in it.

Personal reflections aside, it is equally important to consider that St. Anselm, widely considered to be the pioneer of the argument, did not posit the argument for the purposes of apologetics. Indeed, Anselm does not pretend to operate from a position of neutrality; he makes it very clear from the outset that Christianity is his worldview. This is evident from the very first chapter of Proslogion, where Anselm pleads with God for His self-revelation. As Anselm states:

“When will you look upon us, and hear us? When will you enlighten our eyes, and show us your face? When will you restore yourself to us? Look upon us, Lord; hear us, enlighten us, reveal yourself to us (Proslogion, Chapter 1).”

As can be seen, it is not Anselm’s thesis that God’s existence can be proven, at least in such a way that an unbeliever may be persuaded. Though Anselm felt obliged to defend his position publicly (as seen in his discussions with Gaunilo), the chief reason for which Anselm wrote Proslogion was to continue seeking the goal which he sought out initially in Monologion; to honor God faithfully with the application of reason, which Anselm believes to be a reflection of God and therefore the basis on which God must be understood by his disciples. Anselm goes on to state:

“The believer does not seek to understand, that he may believe, but he believes that he may understand: for unless he believed he would not understand (Proslogion, Chapter 1).”

In other words, Anselm submitted to the fundamental Christian tenet that belief in God is only achieved through God’s divine grace. Thus, he did not adhere to a quasi-rationalist viewpoint according to which human beings, when left to their own devices, can come to know God from a blank slate (tabula rasa). However, Anselm does not strictly view the belief in God to be a matter of faith alone, but also as something which can be justified intellectually. And this can be regarded as equally, if not more, important for the believer as it is for the atheist.

REFERENCES

“The Analytic Theist: An Alvin Plantinga Reader”, edited by James Sennett

“Ontological Arguments and Belief in God” by Graham Oppy

“Charles Hartshorne and Ontological Arguments” by Eugene Peters

“Anselm’s Discovery” by Charles Hartshorne

“Saint Anselm’s Proof: A Problem of Reference, Intentional Identity, and Mutual Understanding” by Gyula Klima

“Logic and Theism” by Jordan Howard Sobel

“The One and the Many” by W. Norris Clarke

“The Christian Theology Reader” by Alister McGrath

“Reading Anselm’s Proslogion” by Ian Logan

“Anselm Revisited” by Robert Shorner

“Anselm and the ontological argument” by Brian Davies

However, philosopher Graham Oppy believes that while the argument may be of historical interest, it is completely worthless as a dialectical tool. According to Oppy, aside from the argument’s lack of persuasiveness, it neither serves as an expository tool for the theistic position nor does it demonstrate that theism is rationally acceptable. It is inadequate in explaining the theistic position because it only begins with the assumption that God is possible or logically conceived and not with the assumption that God exists. And it is inadequate in demonstrating the rational acceptability of theism because it only goes so far as to show that the argument is sound only if one adopts a particular set of presuppositions, which themselves may or may not be justified.

 

The argument is a reductio ad absurdum argument, which is an argument that proves its conclusion by demonstrating that the contrary postulate leads to a logical contradiction. As it appears in Chapter 2 of Proslogion, Anselm's argument, albeit not formalized by Anselm himself, may be formalized here in the following way:

(1) God is the greatest conceivable being [definition of “God“].

(2) Either the greatest conceivable being is only a thought object or it exists in reality [premise].

(3) Anything which is only a thought object is less great than it would be if it existed in reality [premise].

(4) The greatest conceivable being is only a thought object [assumed premise].

(5) The greatest conceivable being is less great than it would be if it existed in reality [from 3 and 4].

(6) It is not the case that the greatest conceivable being is only a thought object [indirect proof from 4 and 5] .

 

Ironically, one of the first critics of Anselm's argument was not an atheist, but a Christian monk by the name of Gaunilo. In his letter On Behalf of the Fool, Gaunilo argues that simply because we can conceive of something does not mean that we can infer that it exists in reality, no matter how great we conceive it to be. As an example, Gaunilo conceives of an island which can be described as that island than which no greater island can be conceived. By Anselm's logic, this island must exist in reality because any island which exists solely in the mind is less great than it would be if it existed in reality. However, given that this is clearly absurd, Anselm's argument must be absurd as well.

At first glance, it appears to be a thoughtful argument on the part of Gaunilo. However, Anselm is alacritous to retort that Gaunilo’s analogical comparison between God and an island is unwarrantable because, while it may be conceivable that there be an island which happens to be greater than all other existing islands, it is utterly inconceivable that there be an island which is such that no greater island can be conceived. For no matter how great one conceives an island to be, s/he can always conceive of one that is greater, simply because the greatness of an island is based upon things which have no intrinsic maximum, e.g., trees, weather, riches, size, and the like. In essence, Gaunilo's rebuttal lacks any cogency because a greatest conceivable island is logically impossible; islands are imperfect by their very nature, from which it follows that to conceive of an island than which no greater island can be conceived would be to contradictorily conceive of something that is both perfect and imperfect. By contrast, God has a degree of greatness which is based upon the category of being, which itself does have an intrinsic maximum. As such, God is not merely the greatest being, but He is the greatest conceivable being.

From all of this, it is clear that Gaunilo's objection fails. But this does not mean that Anselm's argument is sound. For it was Immanuel Kant who delivered what many take to be the staunchest objection to the argument. As an interesting footnote, Kant was actually the first person (as far as we know) to refer to the argument as the "ontological argument." Moreover, even though many philosophers consistently invoke Kant as being one of Anselm‘s chief detractors, it is questionable as to whether or not Kant himself was directing this rebuttal towards Anselm specifically. Nevertheless, according to Kant, the central flaw in the inference to God’s real existence from the contents of the idea is the treatment of existence as being something which a subject possesses, i.e., a predicate. To Kant, existence itself is not anything which is added to a concept; it is merely the is of a judgment, which serves to connect a subject to its predicate. As such, the statement "God is" is hardly a statement at all. Instead, it's an incomplete sentence, which, from the perspective of the opposing interlocutor, says nothing meaningful about the idea which it attempts to put forth. For it simply posits the object in relation to whoever is conceiving it, which may be demonstrative of the possibility of the object, but not of its actuality. For Kant, we can never infer the actual from the possible. Otherwise, the currency of a hundred possible dollars would be equal to that of a hundred actual dollars, which is clearly absurd. Therefore, according to Kantians, Anselm's argument may support the possibility of God, but not His actuality.

For many, it is taken for granted that Kant soundly defeated Anselm. But is it true? In order for Kant's objection to work against Anselm, it must be established that Anselm somehow had a misconception about the idea of existence. The problem, however, is that it is not so clear that this actually applies to Anselm's argument. Kantians would probably point specifically to the third premise, which states that something existing solely in the mind is less great than it would be if it existed in reality. But it can be argued that what Anselm treats as a predicate here is not existence, but concreteness and/or abstractness. As such, it does not appear that Anselm has any difficulty operating in accordance with Kant’s semantic guideposts; given the set of all that is contained in the concept, concreteness or abstractness would contribute to the cardinality. Thus, once the atheist grants that God is the greatest conceivable being, s/he becomes caught in a self-contradiction; inevitably adhering to the idea that the greatest conceivable being can be, insofar that it is greater to be concrete than it is to be abstract, conceived to be greater than He is. This is true, even if existence is not a predicate. Therefore, Kant's objection fails against Anselm.

The failure of Kant's objection notwithstanding, there still remains something unsatisfactory about this formulation of the argument. For it inevitably raises the question: In what sense can we say that a real being is greater than an abstract entity? Thus far, we've only been appealing to intuition, where it seems obvious, for instance, that a hundred dollars in reality is greater than an imaginary hundred dollars. However, there are other scenarios in which this idea becomes counterintuitive. For example, are we equally justified in arguing that the Pythagorean Theorem is qualitatively less great than an amoeba simply on the grounds that the amoeba exists in reality as opposed to the Pythagorean Theorem which is only in the mind? If so, what heuristic not trading upon personal whim could we possibly have implemented in order to arrive at such a conclusion? Even if one argues that the aforementioned measurement of greatness applies only to situations where the greatness of a concrete entity is measured against that of its own concept (for example, if one says that while it is not necessarily true that the Pythagorean Theorem is less great than an amoeba, the real issue is whether or not an abstract Pythagorean Theorem would be less great than a concrete Pythagorean Theorem), the general problem still remains.

But in the view of some philosophers, Anselm avoids this problem insofar that in contextualizing his argument with other chapters of Proslogion, the proposition that concrete existence provides additional greatness does not seem to be what Anselm was attempting to defend in the first place. For such an endorsement would admittedly make the argument far less tractable than it ought to be. For some, Anselm’s metric of greatness seems to be more pertinent to the distinction between contingent beings and necessary beings.

In essence, the argument itself becomes a practice in what is known as "modal logic." Modal logic is a formal system of logic which provides a convenient way for logicians to make arguments using modal terms such as possibly, contingently, and necessarily. More specifically, modal logic provides a body of axioms and theorems which direct our usage of such terms, allowing us to formulate arguments, such as Anselm's ontological argument, more rigorously. Applying modal logic, it could be stated that something x is possible if and only if there is a possible world where x is instantiated. Likewise, something x is necessary if and only if x is instantiated in every possible world. Finally, something x is contingent if and only if x is instantiated in one or more possible worlds but not every possible world.

Applying the aforementioned principles, Anselm’s argument has been subject to revision by contemporary philosophers. This revision has come to be known as the “modal ontological argument.” There are two main versions of this argument whose relative ubiquity shall render them the primary focus of the ensuing discussion. The first version was formalized by Charles Hartshorne and Norman Malcolm. Although Hartshorne and Malcolm did not work together, I shall, for the sake of brevity, discuss both of their arguments in the context of one formulation, given that their respective versions are quite similar to one another. The second version, formalized by Alvin Plantinga, seems to be unique in its own right.

The argument formalized by Charles Hartshorne and Norman Malcolm largely reflects what Anselm wrote in Chapter 3 of Proslogion. In it, Anselm puts forward a premise, which, for Hartshorne and Malcolm, constitutes the foundation for the contemporary metaphysical understanding of “necessary” and “contingent”; an individual whose nonexistence is logically impossible is qualitatively greater than one whose nonexistence is logically possible. Thus, in the May 1944 issue of The Philosophical Review, Hartshorne interprets Anselm to be arguing that God, the greatest conceivable being, must be a necessary being because it is greater to be necessary than it is to be contingent. Norman Malcolm, in the January 1960 issue of the very same journal, echoes Hartshorne’s sentiments by positing that if God is understood properly as the greatest conceivable being, then He cannot be understood as having begun to exist nor can He be understood as existing whilst having the potential to not exist because anything which begins to exist or stops existing must be an effect of some cause to which it cannot comparatively be greater. Hence, according to the analyses of both Hartshorne and Malcolm, positing that God is not instantiated in the actual world is tantamount to arguing that, in the worlds where God does exist, there is some being that is qualitatively greater than the greatest conceivable being, which, of course, is a metaphysical impossibility. As such, the structure of the argument gives way to the following exclusive disjunction: Either the existential proposition of God is analytically true or it is logically contradictory. And, according to the argument, since the proposition is not contradictory, it must be analytically true. Hartshorne and Malcolm’s argument can be formalized in the following way:

(1) God is the greatest conceivable being [definition of “God”].

(2) The greatest conceivable being is either necessary or impossible or contingent [premise].

(3) The greatest conceivable being is neither impossible nor contingent [premise].

(4) The greatest conceivable being is necessary [from 2 and 3].

(5) The greatest conceivable being exists in all possible worlds [from 4].

::. God exists in the actual world [from 1 and 5].

Alvin Plantinga formalized what many take to be the most famous modal version of the argument. The principal weakness that Plantinga found in Hartshorne and Malcolm's formalization of the argument was that it was not made clear in any of their premises that God's existence in the actual world included all of His great-making properties, which is to say, perhaps God's properties in possible world W are greater than His properties in actual world W'. As Plantinga states:

"It doesn't follow that the being in question has the degree of greatness in question in Kronos, the actual world. For all the argument shows, this being might exist in the actual world but be pretty insignificant here. In some world or other it has maximal greatness; how does this show that it has such greatness in Kronos (The Analytic Theist, Alvin Plantinga, edited by James Sennett, 1998, p. 66)."

Plantinga thus revised the argument to say that God, as understood by Anselm, possesses His great-making properties in every possible world. Plantinga refers to the instantiation of God's great-making properties (omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, moral perfection, etc.) in every possible world as "maximal greatness," whereas the instantiation of such properties in one world is called "maximal excellence." Plantinga reformulates the argument as follows:

(1) There is a possible world in which maximal greatness is instantiated [premise].

(2) Necessarily, a being is maximally great if and only if it has maximal excellence in every possible world [definition of "maximal greatness"].

(3) Necessarily, a being has maximal excellence in every possible world if and only if it is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, wholly good, and eternal in every possible world [definition of "maximal excellence"].

::. A being instantiates omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, moral perfection, and eternality in the actual world [from 1 to 3].

How do atheists respond to the newly formed modal versions of the argument? One objection is that granting the possibility of God in these instances is strictly epistemic, which is to say that as far as we know, God is possible. Along similar lines, we can argue that it is possible that the one billionth digit of Pi is 8, simply on the grounds that we have no knowledge whatsoever of the one billionth digit of Pi. And for the atheist, this is the only sense in which we can say that God is possible; we have no knowledge whatsoever of God, therefore we can say that God is possible, if “possible“ is understood in a trivial epistemic sense. Thus, we cannot accept the logic of the modal ontological argument because in doing so we would have to conclude that since the one billionth digit of Pi is 8 in some possible world, it therefore must be 8 in every possible world since all mathematical truths are logically necessary. But clearly, there is something wrong with this conclusion because we‘ve already conceded that we do not know if the one billionth digit of Pi is 8. In the same way, we cannot conclude from God’s epistemic possibility that He actually exists.

In response, the theist can argue that it should be made clear that, in the context of the argument, "possibility" strictly refers to modal possibility, i.e., occupying some possible world. In this case, the term "God" has a clearly defined meaning, allowing us, by way of its logical consistency, to posit with certainty that such a being is modally possible. In terms of the one billionth digit of Pi, we cannot apply this same metric simply because the assessment of its logical consistency is coupled with the application of counting, which creates an epistemological gap between ourselves and the value of the mathematical constant equal to the one billionth digit of Pi. As a result, we can only know that necessarily there is a one billionth digit of Pi and that, letting 0 < x < 9, if the one billionth digit of Pi is x in possible world W, then it is x in every possible world. However, our metric for determining what x can possibly be equal to is much less manageable and therefore, we cannot say one way or the other if the one billionth digit of Pi is possibly 8. Rather, we just simply do not know. Thus, the epistemological gap does not apply in both cases.

But then the atheist may ask the following question: How can we know for sure that "God" is a logically consistent idea? For the concept itself may contain a hidden contradiction which we are unaware of. Thus, it may in fact be the nonexistence of God which is logically necessary. In fact, one can point out that it is possible for us to affirm the real existence of contradictory ideas if we fail to realize that such things are contradictory. The contention that “God” is a contradictory idea is referred to by Hartshorne as “positivism.”

Understandably, theists may ask the following question in response: What exactly does this position do for the atheist? Does the alleged possibility of "God" being a contradictory term vindicate his or her position? If anything, it would place the burden of proof on his or her shoulders. Moreover, the tactic itself seems to be an ad hoc maneuver on the part of the atheist if s/he normally argues against God from the standpoint that a world where God exists would be entirely different from the one that we happen to occupy (for example, the problem of evil argues that the existence of evil is inconsistent with the existence of God, which would show that the atheist grants the coherency of the idea of God insofar that s/he is speaking of worlds where God exists). Thus, it would appear that, at least to the theist, positivism is an untenable position.

But though it may be clear that atheists will have their own burden of proof with respect to the positivist position, isn't it just as well that God's conceivability requires further justification on the part of the theist? In fairness, the lack of prima facie contradictions in the proposition “God exists in reality” seems to apply equally to the proposition “God does not exist in reality.” At this stage, then, it seems to be the case that the tenability of the ontological argument is, in any one of its formalizations, contingent upon one's worldview. Hence, while the argument itself will work for those whose set of presuppositions allows that there be something than which nothing can conceivably be greater, it will have not even a modicum of currency for the atheist interlocutors who deny that “God“ is even meaningful. Thus, the ontological argument does not appear to stand on its own two feet, as it requires us to make additional arguments in support of the set of presuppositions under which it is sound. Given these facts, the atheist does not seem to be fully blameworthy for his or her skepticism. For it holds true that if an entire worldview is not justified, then arguments which are defended only under its auspices cannot be justifiably accepted.

St. Thomas Aquinas had argued along similar lines, claiming that the existence of God, while self-evident, is not necessarily self-evident to us. God is self-evident in Himself, as it is clear to Him, in His omniscience, that nonexistence is not an option for Him. But, as Aquinas would probably have argued, in order for the truth of this existential proposition to be clear to us, we will need intellectual assent provided from beyond the mere utterance of the word "God." Thus, according to Aquinas’ reasoning, it seems that the ontological argument, even if we grant its validity, cannot provide us with grounds for saying that the atheist’s tendency toward doubt is without excuse.

It appears, then, that the greatest charge someone can make against the ontological argument is that it's superfluous. For it seems that it only works once the truth of the proposition "God has real existence" is established a posteriori, at which point God's real existence is already proven.

One possible counterargument is as follows: If we follow Charles Hartshorne‘s understanding of God‘s nature, then it is inconceivable that positivism be true. Hartshorne states that unlike regular abstractions such as "human" or "cat," the abstraction "perfect" cannot be shared by many beings. As such, God's existence does not occur in place of other things which could have shared in His divine category. The essence of God is, in fact, noncompetitive. This means that there is no moment at which God's existence competes with His nonexistence or with the existence of others because such dichotomous relationships are predicated only of contingent things. Taking this one step further, we can argue (as philosopher Eugene Peters does) that God, in His divine essence, constitutes the ground for possibility itself, since the ultimate source of any contingent thing would consist in something that's necessary. Hence, one may argue that God cannot be modally impossible because the very notion of possibility presupposes God. Therefore, so the argument goes, the ontological argument can work without recourse to a posteriori arguments.

The problem with this proposed solution is that if the positivist is right and "God" is not meaningful, then the term, regardless of what the theist intends for it to signify, does not actually signify anything, anymore than does “squared circle” actually signify a four sided figure that contains only closed curves. What follows is that in putting forth this objection against the atheist, the theist is making an accusation of self-contradiction whilst unwittingly presupposing that the atheist grants the coherency of the term, which cannot be the case in positivism. The only recourse for the theist, then, would be to put forth another argument justifying the coherency of "God," which, as previously mentioned, would make the ontological argument superfluous.

So, the question remains, what place does the ontological argument have in the ongoing dialectic between theists and atheists? One could argue that it could be useful in explicating the theistic position, given that the argumentative modus operandi of the atheist may be based on a misunderstanding of what “God” means. Furthermore, as Alvin Plantinga notes, even if the argument does not establish its conclusion incontrovertibly, it may still lend credence to the rational acceptability of theism, given its deductive validity and the fact that its central premise, i.e., God is possible, contains no prima facie contradiction. One could also argue that the argument is a useful tool for engaging philosophy novices (especially those who are atheists, given their antipathy towards the argument’s conclusion) in the contemplation of metaphysical issues, since, as Plantinga mentions, many of the central issues in metaphysics meet in this argument, such as the nature of existence, the possibility of knowledge without experience, the relationship between concepts and objects, and so on.

::. The greatest conceivable being exists in reality [from 2 and 6].

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/anselm-proslogium.html

 

 

 

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm

 

 


ubuntuAnyone
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BobSpence1

BobSpence1 wrote:

 UbuntuAnyone, I admire your dogged persistence with this person, I have no more time or patience....

I pretty much agree with the grounds you are challenging him on.

Thx...you and cj both.

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The OA as described actually

The OA as described actually eliminates the God of the Bible as a contender.

If someone has written a book about something, that something has been conceived.  Therefore, it can't be God.

"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
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If you concentrate on

If you concentrate on "necessity" as the prime modal attribute, the OA turns into a version of the Cosmological Argument, ie God is what is necessary to originate existence. According to current knowledge, that need only be a mindless, random quantum particle of some sort.

If you concentrate on "greatness", you making a naked assertion by 'defining' God into existence.

If you use "conceivable" as a criterion in the sense of what our minds can conceive, you are limiting God to a the finite imagination of a finite mind. If you use "conceivable" in a more legitimate sense, as being logically possible, you still have to establish that this 'possible' being actually exists.

The ultimate nonsense of the OA is then invoked to conflate "existence" as just another attribute contributing to the notional "greatness" of this hypothetical being. This is a category error, as has been pointed out by most critics of the OA.

Plantinga seems to have tried to address this most glaring problem of the original formulation by using a sequence of modal logic statements, including one based on the contentious S5 axioms. This complexity seems to me to amount to an attempt to obscure the basic logic enough to slip thru some problematic shift of meaning.

 

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I think the key difference

I think the key difference between "necessarily" in a modal context is that it suggests that there is something about whatever necessarily exists that makes it exist in every possible world. Cosmological arguments that suggest every possible world is necessarily contingent on something. The former could be contingent upon the world itself though, which a cosmological argument I think would deny.

But both arguments fail in different respects, so using either one is results in a zero sum.

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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

Bloody_Cross wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

Raising people from the dead and performing miracles would have a scientific explanation whether you were god or not.

Physics defying anthropomorphic magic acts have always seemed to me to be an odd way to prove the existence of a laws-based creator.

Okay.  So basically, there is absolutely no way you'll believe in God.  No matter what proof anybody gives you, it is either "subjective", or has a scientific explanation, and what not.  You are clearly not an atheist based on the evidence.  You, like most atheists, exclude God by your presuppositions, such that no matter what anybody shows you, it will never be good enough or "extraordinary" enough. 

 

The whole idea of an undetectable character who underpins the universe is impossible to understand much less prove. To me this is just essentialism on a universal scale. Really, feeding people omega 3s at a picnic and 'raising some one from the dead' are not proof of exo-universal creator gods.  As I've said before, I'd need to be god to conceive god. Attempting to prove huge universal claims on the basis of personal anthro revelations is just - utterly uneducated.

I really don't know what proof I'd need but there are no miracles in the NT that cut it for me. The real human 'miracles' of modern medicine and science blast them completely out of the water.

As for believing on the basis of presuppositions, Bloody, look at you. You have never seen a miracle and like me, have no scientific proof of god. Yet here you are - projecting your presuppositions. 

 

I agree, in so far that it is a logical impossibility to actually conceive of something supernatural that happens in the real world.

Having said that, there are things an entity could do to make me *treat* said entity like the God of the Bible.  Stopping  the sun, like Joshua 10, would be a hell of a trick.  Genuine healing or necromancy.  Genuine prophecy.  If that being could demonstrate the ability to make our consciousness immortal at a whim, and place that consciousness in a pleasure or pain factory, I'd do whatever it told me to do...even absurd things like not eating pork.  I might not think it was truly supernatural, but my actions would be indistinguishable from someone who thought so.

 

But God has apparently decided that, rather than do the things He used to do, he'll empower fanatics with philosophy 101 classes and unleash them on anyone doubtful.  Truly, God is amazing.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote:But God has

mellestad wrote:

But God has apparently decided that, rather than do the things He used to do, he'll empower fanatics with philosophy 101 classes and unleash them on anyone doubtful.  Truly, God is amazing.

ROFLMAO!

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ubuntuAnyone wrote:I think

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

I think the key difference between "necessarily" in a modal context is that it suggests that there is something about whatever necessarily exists that makes it exist in every possible world. Cosmological arguments that suggest every possible world is necessarily contingent on something. The former could be contingent upon the world itself though, which a cosmological argument I think would deny.

But both arguments fail in different respects, so using either one is results in a zero sum.

And one thing that would be 'necessary' in all possible worlds is a 'first cause', so that is one thing that would fit that requirement. If something is 'defined' as "that which is necessary to cause a world to exist" it is necessary in all possible worlds, therefore is 'necessary' in modal terms.

Of course, there is no logical constraint on other attributes of a 'first cause', or for that matter, on any other attributes of some 'necessary' thing.

Which becomes problematic if one requires that the modally 'necessary' thing be identical in all possible worlds.

This is a limitation of the modal argument here - 'necessary' entails nothing more that that something must possess those attributes which make it exist in all possible worlds. It does not logically entail what other attributes that something may or may not possess, so there is no logical requirement that it be identifiable the same thing in APW.

'Necessity' is effectively an attribute. So even if you establish that attribute must exist in APW, that does not logically entail that whatever possesses that attribute in any particular world be identical to whatever fills that 'role' in any other world. 

'Able to serve as a first cause' would obviously be one attribute that would be a 'necessary' attribute in APW, (given one accepts the cosmological argument), which was my point.

The problem for either the modal OA or cosmological argument, is that they entail no other attributes.

So the failure in each case is in showing that the attributes which make something fit the minimal definition of God are necessary for anything 'proved' to exist by the arguments.

Anselm tries to turn 'greatest' into 'necessary' by treating 'exists' as an attribute adding to 'greatness' which is the essential weakness in his argument. You can arguably say that having all the omni attributes makes something the 'greatest' possible being, but that does not mean that something possessing those attributes actually exists.

The Cosmological 'fail' is simpler, the unquestioned assumption that since their pre-existing beliefs say that God is 'the' creator, the only possible thing that could be the 'first cause' is God. but they don't  seem to recognise that this also needs to be proved. The closest they come to proving this connection is to refer to the 'Principle of Sufficient Reason' to show that only God could suffice to be the First Cause, but the PoSR is simply an encapsulation of the assumption that a 'cause' must be 'greater' that its 'effect', which we now know is not necessarily so.

Actually, I would say that both arguments could be said to succeed, in establishing that 'something' must exist, but they do not show that that something can only be God.

The problem with modal logic is that the only referents which can be said to necessary are specific attributes, not specific objects, IOW you cannot argue validly that a specific object must exist, ie, is 'necessary', only that 'something possessing these attributes' is necessary. Entirely different actual objects could fit the requirements in each particular PW. There could be more than one.

When you throw in the problems when you try to apply "necessary" and "possible" in combination, such as "necessarily possible" and you have to have alternative resolutions such as S5 etc, I'd say it seems that modal logic is more likely to confuse an issue than clarify it, so it is a bunch of crap. There can be no valid binary logic arguments that cannot be expressed without using modal concepts.

Modal logic is NOT 'necessary' ...

The more productive extensions of logic are those that allow for more than two values, on up to those allowing for handling a continuum of likelihood or probability from zero (false) to 1.0(true). This involves methods such as Bayes Theorem, and allows analysis of induction, so can be applied to check the rigor of scientific reasoning. IMHO. Bayesian analysis really is the main tool that is useful here, along with ordinary propositional logic characterised by IF THEN ELSE coupled with AND OR NOT as the logical conjunctions.

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Unless Bloody_Cross can show

Unless Bloody_Cross can show qualifications that trump Russell's, a person who he has already shown he respects, then he should concede defeat, since Russell rejects the OA as NOT a 'good' argument, and does not believe in any God.

Since he continually relies on questioning his opponent's qualifications rather than specifically refuting their arguments, he will have no honest alternative, by his own 'standards'.

 

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BobSpence1 wrote:And one

BobSpence1 wrote:

And one thing that would be 'necessary' in all possible worlds is a 'first cause', so that is one thing that would fit that requirement. If something is 'defined' as "that which is necessary to cause a world to exist" it is necessary in all possible worlds, therefore is 'necessary' in modal terms.

Of course, there is no logical constraint on other attributes of a 'first cause', or for that matter, on any other attributes of some 'necessary' thing.

Which becomes problematic if one requires that the modally 'necessary' thing be identical in all possible worlds.

Yeah...In that cosmological arguments are perhaps a subset in modal argument...

BobSpence1 wrote:

'Able to serve as a first cause' would obviously be one attribute that would be a 'necessary' attribute in APW, (given one accepts the cosmological argument), which was my point.

Gotcha

BobSpence1 wrote:

Actually, I would say that both arguments could be said to succeed, in establishing that 'something' must exist, but they do not show that that something can only be God.

That was another more minor contention I had with the Ontological argument. If I suppose myself as the greatest possible conceivable being, then all I've done is prove the existence of myself, and I am justified in calling myself "god". But this could be applied to anything...just pick what you think is the greatest possible conceivable being and away you go. In other words, it does not prove what theists would like it to prove...that is not without additional premises. I think that theists are scared to produce these because it would expose even more so that the argument is begging the question....

BobSpence1 wrote:

The problem with modal logic is that the only referents which can be said to necessary are specific attributes, not specific objects, IOW you cannot argue validly that a specific object must exist, ie, is 'necessary', only that 'something possessing these attributes' is necessary. Entirely different actual objects could fit the requirements in each particular PW. There could be more than one.

When you throw in the problems when you try to apply "necessary" and "possible" in combination, such as "necessarily possible" and you have to have alternative resolutions such as S5 etc, I'd say it seems that modal logic is more likely to confuse an issue than clarify it, so it is a bunch of crap. There can be no valid binary logic arguments that cannot be expressed without using modal concepts.

Modal logic is NOT 'necessary' ...

I tend to think that modal logic is abused more than it is used. Possible world scenarios don't have to be baseless crystal-ball gazing scenarios. I think it has application in contingency planning and things such as this which talk about possibilities and necessities etc.. But I think the key difference between this and how theists use it is again related to how theists make baseless assumption and attempt to prove things accordingly. WLC and Plantinga do this all the time...

BobSpence1 wrote:

The more productive extensions of logic are those that allow for more than two values, on up to those allowing for handling a continuum of likelihood or probability from zero (false) to 1.0(true). This involves methods such as Bayes Theorem, and allows analysis of induction, so can be applied to check the rigor of scientific reasoning. IMHO. Bayesian analysis really is the main tool that is useful here, along with ordinary propositional logic characterised by IF THEN ELSE coupled with AND OR NOT as the logical conjunctions.

As a programmer too, I appreciate Bayes' Theorem and propositional logic. I can say that it is used more often by more people for more "real' things than modal logic is.

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Good point

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

That was another more minor contention I had with the Ontological argument. If I suppose myself as the greatest possible conceivable being, then all I've done is prove the existence of myself, and I am justified in calling myself "god". But this could be applied to anything...just pick what you think is the greatest possible conceivable being and away you go. In other words, it does not prove what theists would like it to prove...that is not without additional premises. I think that theists are scared to produce these because it would expose even more so that the argument is begging the question....

ubuntu - the ability to conceive (tho in this case I wonder what that could possibly mean) a supreme being says something about the human brain's capacity for conceptualisation and nothing about an actual god.

Personally, I think it's fine to imagine a god so long as you admit that's what you are doing. But using the woolly nature of philosophy to 'prove' anything is dishonest, for mine. 

You guys correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't modal logic only able to assign a value to something if modality is being applied to something that is true. Using modal logic to prove the truth of something, rather than qualifying a truth?

It just seems out of whack.

 

 

 

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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

That was another more minor contention I had with the Ontological argument. If I suppose myself as the greatest possible conceivable being, then all I've done is prove the existence of myself, and I am justified in calling myself "god". But this could be applied to anything...just pick what you think is the greatest possible conceivable being and away you go. In other words, it does not prove what theists would like it to prove...that is not without additional premises. I think that theists are scared to produce these because it would expose even more so that the argument is begging the question....

ubuntu - the ability to conceive (tho in this case I wonder what that could possibly mean) a supreme being says something about the human brain's capacity for conceptualisation and nothing about an actual god.

Personally, I think it's fine to imagine a god so long as you admit that's what you are doing. But using the woolly nature of philosophy to 'prove' anything is dishonest, for mine.

Yeah...I was suggesting the the OA is non-unique...it doesn't prove theism is true even if the argument is successful because I think the definition (at least Anselms version) is a rather non-descript definition. Plantinga does a little better in his version.

Atheistextremist wrote:

You guys correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't modal logic only able to assign a value to something if modality is being applied to something that is true. Using modal logic to

prove

the truth of something, rather than

qualifying

a truth?

It just seems out of whack.

Modal logic is used to show that something is necessarily true or possibly true, with the former being a stronger sort of truth. That is why all the "possible worlds' jargon comes up because those attempting to show something is true in all circumstances. So to answer you question, it qualifies truth rather than proves it. The idea is that if something is necessarily true, then there is no condition that would make it false....

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Ta

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

That was another more minor contention I had with the Ontological argument. If I suppose myself as the greatest possible conceivable being, then all I've done is prove the existence of myself, and I am justified in calling myself "god". But this could be applied to anything...just pick what you think is the greatest possible conceivable being and away you go. In other words, it does not prove what theists would like it to prove...that is not without additional premises. I think that theists are scared to produce these because it would expose even more so that the argument is begging the question....

ubuntu - the ability to conceive (tho in this case I wonder what that could possibly mean) a supreme being says something about the human brain's capacity for conceptualisation and nothing about an actual god.

Personally, I think it's fine to imagine a god so long as you admit that's what you are doing. But using the woolly nature of philosophy to 'prove' anything is dishonest, for mine.

Yeah...I was suggesting the the OA is non-unique...it doesn't prove theism is true even if the argument is successful because I think the definition (at least Anselms version) is a rather non-descript definition. Plantinga does a little better in his version.

Atheistextremist wrote:

You guys correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't modal logic only able to assign a value to something if modality is being applied to something that is true. Using modal logic to

prove

the truth of something, rather than

qualifying

a truth?

It just seems out of whack.

Modal logic is used to show that something is necessarily true or possibly true, with the former being a stronger sort of truth. That is why all the "possible worlds' jargon comes up because those attempting to show something is true in all circumstances. So to answer you question, it qualifies truth rather than proves it. The idea is that if something is necessarily true, then there is no condition that would make it false....

 

Thanks for that. Is it fair to say then, that modal logic only works in reality?

 

 

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Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

Thanks for that. Is it fair to say then, that modal logic only works in reality?

I might qualify that and say when it's based on reality, because modal logic attempts to explorer possibilities.

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The aspect of modal logic

The aspect of modal logic which sticks in my craw is the definition of 'possible' as excluding the 'necessary', ie something cannot be both necessary and possible, which is not how those terms are employed in 'ordinary' usage, where possible/impossible cover everything - everything is either possible or impossible. 

I understand why those categories are used, I wish they could have used a different word than 'possible'.

 

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BobSpence1 wrote:The aspect

BobSpence1 wrote:

The aspect of modal logic which sticks in my craw is the definition of 'possible' as excluding the 'necessary', ie something cannot be both necessary and possible, which is not how those terms are employed in 'ordinary' usage, where possible/impossible cover everything - everything is either possible or impossible. 

I understand why those categories are used, I wish they could have used a different word than 'possible'.

 

 

That is fucked.  If it is necessary, then it must be possible, since it must exist, because it is necessary.  No wonder when anyone has tried to explain this to me before, their explanation made no sense.  Your explanation doesn't make sense either, but at least now I can see why it is senseless.

 

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It does suck

 

 

I have often wondered why an anthro god is considered necessary for the ignition/existence of the universe? If we don't how these things began 'necessary' becomes an assertion.

It strikes me that unless the godly can prove god's necessity scientifically then the ontological argument is another argument from ignorance.

 

 

 

 

 

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cj wrote:BobSpence1

cj wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

The aspect of modal logic which sticks in my craw is the definition of 'possible' as excluding the 'necessary', ie something cannot be both necessary and possible, which is not how those terms are employed in 'ordinary' usage, where possible/impossible cover everything - everything is either possible or impossible. 

I understand why those categories are used, I wish they could have used a different word than 'possible'.

 

 

That is fucked.  If it is necessary, then it must be possible, since it must exist, because it is necessary.  No wonder when anyone has tried to explain this to me before, their explanation made no sense.  Your explanation doesn't make sense either, but at least now I can see why it is senseless.

 

They define three levels of  possibility (using the word in the normal sense):

1. impossible; 

2. possible but not always ('necessarily') true - this is the 'fucked' one - uses the word 'possible';

3. always ('necessarily') true  - uses the word 'necessary'.

And then proceed to develop propositions and theorems using these definitions, to explore whether things dependent in various ways on other things that may be either in cat 2 or 3 are ultimately in either 2 or 3 themselves. 

 

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I just want to register a

I just want to register a "thank you" to Bloody_Cross for stimulating me to re-visit the works of Bertrand Russell. What a wonderful mind. No belief in Gods, a dedicated Rationalist, a master logician...

EDIT: Checking back, our ignorant friend has not posted for about 30 hours. Has he given upon us poor unqualified atheists?

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BobSpence1 wrote:I just want

BobSpence1 wrote:

I just want to register a "thank you" to Bloody_Cross for stimulating me to re-visit the works of Bertrand Russell. What a wonderful mind. No belief in Gods, a dedicated Rationalist, a master logician...

EDIT: Checking back, our ignorant friend has not posted for about 30 hours. Has he given upon us poor unqualified atheists?

The course of so many theists on this site:

Initial post usually cordial -> Posters point out the logical problems -> Theist attempts to defend -> Posters point out more problems -> Theists get frustrated -> Posters comment on frustration -> Theist gets mad, starts making ad hominem attacks -> Theist finally gives up, never to be heard from again....

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There was that initial comparison

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

BobSpence1 wrote:

I just want to register a "thank you" to Bloody_Cross for stimulating me to re-visit the works of Bertrand Russell. What a wonderful mind. No belief in Gods, a dedicated Rationalist, a master logician...

EDIT: Checking back, our ignorant friend has not posted for about 30 hours. Has he given upon us poor unqualified atheists?

The course of so many theists on this site:

Initial post usually cordial -> Posters point out the logical problems -> Theist attempts to defend -> Posters point out more problems -> Theists get frustrated -> Posters comment on frustration -> Theist gets mad, starts making ad hominem attacks -> Theist finally gives up, never to be heard from again....

 

quote from psalms he plugged into his first post that equates atheists/unbelievers with fools. Not a good sign.

 

 

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Looks like I may have

Looks like I may have deleted the last few posts on this thread in the process of getting rid of BC's stuff.

Oh well, one could make a not very valid but still psychologically satisfying argument that he just demonstrated that, while it might not be necessary to be bat-shit crazy to buy the OA, but it probably helps a lot...

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To repeat a comment I made

To repeat a comment I made on a post that got lost in the task of deleting BC's spam, I now see that Modal Logic and the associated 'possible worlds' argument does make sense.

The first adjustment I made was that it now seems that 'possible' in the main version of ML is not that different in meaning to its ordinary use as I had gathered from my previous attempt to understand ML. Maybe I shouldn't have been using Wikipedia....

The other is that it has been recognized that the simplistic 'All Possible Worlds' was not workable in a general sense, ie people kept thinking of common scenarios where it didn't produce intelligible results, so the concept of 'accessible' sets of PW, ie subsets of APW which are all mutually 'accessible' was introduced:

Quote:

In order to provide a generic treatment of necessity, we must say that □A is true in w iff A is true in all worlds that are related to w in the right way. So for an operator □ interpreted as necessity, we introduce a corresponding relation R on the set of possible worlds W, traditionally called the accessibility relation. The accessibility relation R holds between worlds w and w′ iff w′ is possible given the facts of w. Under this reading for R, it should be clear that frames for modal logic should be reflexive. It follows that modal logics should be founded on M, the system that results from adding (M) to K. Depending on exactly how the accessibility relation is understood, symmetry and transitivity may also be desired.

Taking this all into account, I now find ML more intelligible.

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ubuntuAnyone wrote:The

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

The course of so many theists on this site:

Initial post usually cordial -> Posters point out the logical problems -> Theist attempts to defend -> Posters point out more problems -> Theists get frustrated -> Posters comment on frustration -> Theist gets mad, starts making ad hominem attacks -> Theist finally gives up, never to be heard from again....

The cycle is complete...

What happened to the rest of the content?

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ubuntuAnyone

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

ubuntuAnyone wrote:

The course of so many theists on this site:

Initial post usually cordial -> Posters point out the logical problems -> Theist attempts to defend -> Posters point out more problems -> Theists get frustrated -> Posters comment on frustration -> Theist gets mad, starts making ad hominem attacks -> Theist finally gives up, never to be heard from again....

The cycle is complete...

What happened to the rest of the content?

Dunno, maybe it got caught up in the work deleting BC's spam. 

I wish I could get it back, I put a bit of work into some of those final responses.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

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BobSpence1 wrote:Dunno,

BobSpence1 wrote:

Dunno, maybe it got caught up in the work deleting BC's spam. 

I wish I could get it back, I put a bit of work into some of those final responses.

There was just one argument he made that illustrated my point I was making, and it wasn't even an ontological argument. I was hoping it would be there for posterity sake. Here's the summary though:

In short though, he accused me not being correctable. I basically said this was a baseless assumption in his part regardless of whether it was true or false. He then proceeded to make a conclusion on that assumption. I said if he was right and I was uncorrectable, it was only accidental, but it was only because his assumption was true. But if the assumption was wrong, then the conclusion was false. In either case, the argument had nothing to do with reality, and I said ontological arguments do the same thing... He got pissed and went on a tantrum then though...

 

 

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 There was a point I made

 There was a point I made about Plantinga's version of the OA having a glaring inconsistency:

 

Alvin Plantinga wrote:

P1 A thing has maximal greatness if and only if it has maximal excellence in every possible world.

P2 Whatever has maximal excellence is omniscient, omnipotent and morally perfect.

P3 There is a possible world in which the property of possessing maximal greatness is exemplified.

P4 The property of possessing maximal greatness is exemplified in every possible world.

P5 If maximal greatness is exemplified in every world, then it is exemplified in this world.

P1 and P3 are incompatible.

P1 defines "maximal greatness" as an attribute that applies at the level of 'all possible worlds';

P3 and P4 then refers to the possibility of "maximal greatness" being exemplified within individual worlds, which makes no sense. He can only legitimately refer to "maximal excellence" when discussing an attribute exemplified within any individual world.

It is virtually a category error. Fail.

Another reference to Plantinga, from an excellent account of the OA and its history at The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy website,

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ontological-arguments

Quote:

Perhaps somewhat surprisingly, Plantinga himself agrees: the “victorious” modal ontological argument is not a proof of the existence of a being which possesses maximal greatness. But how, then, is it “victorious”? Plantinga writes: “Our verdict on these reformulated versions of St. Anselm's argument must be as follows. They cannot, perhaps, be said to prove or establish their conclusion. But since it is rational to accept their central premise, they do show that it is rational to accept that conclusion.” (Plantinga (1974, 221)).

IOW, his OA only 'proves' God if you accept the central premise already...

Double fail.

Wanted to make sure those points were not lost.

 

 

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Alvin Plantinga wrote:P1 A

Alvin Plantinga wrote:

P1 A thing has maximal greatness if and only if it has maximal excellence in every possible world.

P2 Whatever has maximal excellence is omniscient, omnipotent and morally perfect.

P3 There is a possible world in which the property of possessing maximal greatness is exemplified.

P4 The property of possessing maximal greatness is exemplified in every possible world.

P5 If maximal greatness is exemplified in every world, then it is exemplified in this world.

My argument against Plantinga to BC was basically this:

My beef with Plantinga was his 3rd premise, that says that maximal greatness is instantiated in a possible world. I think he smuggles in maximal greatness in this premise without explaining how. The first  premise suggest that it necessarily exists in all possible worlds. BC said it was possible because it was logically consistent, therefore possible. I think that is confusing cohesion with correspondence, and only make my point in that Plantinga is assuming too much and making conclusion based on these assumptions. Even more so, it is arguable that without an account in the actual world of maximal greatness, there is no reason to believe that premise 3 is true, and one could then conclude that premise 1 is not necessarily true because there is a possible world where maximal greatness may not exist. But if he does offer an account, he'd beg the question. So insofar as I can tell, he's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.

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Honestly, I guess I need to

Honestly, I guess I need to buy a book about this argument from a theist's perspective.  I've been seeing these arguments for years, and I still don't understand the attraction of the OA from a theist's point of view.  To me it just seems absurd.  The fact that so many intelligent philosophers think it is a valid argument makes me think I'm missing something.

 

Any thoughts on something to read that might enlighten me?

 

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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mellestad wrote:Honestly, I

mellestad wrote:

Honestly, I guess I need to buy a book about this argument from a theist's perspective.  I've been seeing these arguments for years, and I still don't understand the attraction of the OA from a theist's point of view.  To me it just seems absurd.  The fact that so many intelligent philosophers think it is a valid argument makes me think I'm missing something.

Any thoughts on something to read that might enlighten me?

You should certainly spend some time reading the articles at that site I linked to: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ontological-arguments.

It also lists many references.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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BobSpence1 wrote:mellestad

BobSpence1 wrote:

mellestad wrote:

Honestly, I guess I need to buy a book about this argument from a theist's perspective.  I've been seeing these arguments for years, and I still don't understand the attraction of the OA from a theist's point of view.  To me it just seems absurd.  The fact that so many intelligent philosophers think it is a valid argument makes me think I'm missing something.

Any thoughts on something to read that might enlighten me?

You should certainly spend some time reading the articles at that site I linked to: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ontological-arguments.

It also lists many references.

Thanks, Bob.

Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.


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Set Theory Anyone?

I've always liked responding to the ontological argument by employing set theory.

 

Let S be the set of all conceivable beings, arranged in order of increasing 'greatness.'

 

The ontological argument basically defines God to be the maximum of S.  However, without first demonstrating that S actually has a maximum, this may very well be a faulty definition.  Like if I defined X to be the maximum of the interval (0,1).  If it turns out that S does not have a maximum, then by the very definition proposed by the ontological argument we can determine that God does not even exist conceptually, much less actually.  If it turns out that S does have a maximum then we conclude that God does exist conceptually, and only then can the ontological argument even begin.  Of course, if it turns out that S has multiple maxima then the ontological argument has turned into an argument for polytheism.

 

In other words, the ontological argument, used monotheistically, can't even get started until you demonstrate that S has exactly one maximum.  Until this is demonstrated the rest of the argument need not be considered.

 

Also, it's important to note here that showing S to have an upper bound is not enough.  I've seen arguments to the effect that since there is some upper limit to the greatness of things we can conceive (usually supported by the idea that we are finite), there must be a maximum.  Even granting the assertion that there is an upper limit, this does not necessitate a maximum.  After all, 1 serves as an upper limit to the elements of (0,1), and yet that interval still has no maximum (for those interested in this phenomenon, google "supremum" ).

 

Showing that S is finite would suffice to show that S has at least 1 maximum (then you'd still need to demonstrate uniqueness).  However, I find the whole "humans are finite and thus conception-space is finite" to be unconvincing.  At most such an argument shows that at any point in time, only finitely many things have been conceived.  But there's a very big difference between "given any list, there exists a number not on that list" (true) and "there exists a number that cannot be put on any list" (false)*.  Effectively, those who use the "humans are finite" argument demonstrate the former and then treat it as if it is the latter.

 

 

*Formally speaking, this is the difference between:

For all A, there exists B such that C

And

There exists B such that for all A, C

The two are not logically equivalent.

Questions for Theists:
http://silverskeptic.blogspot.com/2011/03/consistent-standards.html

I'm a bit of a lurker. Every now and then I will come out of my cave with a flurry of activity. Then the Ph.D. program calls and I must fall back to the shadows.


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Finite idea space of the human mind

The human mind has a finite number of cells, which have a finite range of states. If you require that to count as a separate (distinct) concept, some idea must have a minimum, finite difference along at least one 'axis' of definition, any given human mind can quite definitely only envisage a finite number of distinct concepts.

QED.

EDIT: If you want to bring time into it, our minds can only change state at finite rate, therefore can only have a finite number of states of mind in a finite time.

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

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re: Set theory

Thank you, Zaq.  Nice way to approach the issue, and I understand set theory a whole lot better than I understand philosophy.

 

PS - I would understand philosophy better if I could stay awake reading it.  Unfortunately, I haven't mastered the staying awake part.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

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The Ontological Argument

Bloody_Cross wrote:

Atheistextremist wrote:

And give us scales of measurement that are not subjective so we can understand them, too.

Eternal, omnipotent, omnipresent, wholly good, omniscient, immaterial, self-existent, sentient, emotional, creative.

Eternal - no god is eternal, except in the temporal mind of its followers. The nature of eternity may be objective, but first you would have to show that god exists, then provide evidence that it is indeed eternal.

omnipotent - epicurus, anyone?

omnipresent - "yeah, but what have you done for me lately?". God seems to have a subjective standard by which it appears or acts.

Wholly good - "goodness" is not an objective measure. Glen beck tells his followers to run screaming from their church if they hear their pastors promoting social justice, since he thinks god _doesn't_ assess social justice as good, but his own mormon church teaches social justice as a critical tenet. Is a 'wholly good' god in favor of social justice? This is hardly an objective standard.

omniscient - (see > omnipotent)

immaterial - not sure what this means, other than the idea that god does not exist as a physical manifestation. Yes, I would agree with that.

self-existent, sentient - And we're back to proving god exists to begin with.

emotional, creative - these are _objective_ qualities?

So, out of ten metrics you claim are objective, only two could be characterized as objective: eternal and immaterial. Of those, eternal is only objective in the context of the concept of infinity, and like the other 8, can't be an objective measure with regards to god, as it's predicated on god's existence to begin with.


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BobSpence1 wrote:The human

BobSpence1 wrote:

The human mind has a finite number of cells, which have a finite range of states. If you require that to count as a separate (distinct) concept, some idea must have a minimum, finite difference along at least one 'axis' of definition, any given human mind can quite definitely only envisage a finite number of distinct concepts.

QED.

EDIT: If you want to bring time into it, our minds can only change state at finite rate, therefore can only have a finite number of states of mind in a finite time.

You've only shown (at best) that the concept-space of any single mind is finite.  You haven't shown that concept-space itself is finite.

 

Taking a look at your argument:

1. The human mind has a finite number of cells...  Definitely true.  Given a human mind, the number of cells is finite.

2. Which have a finite number of states.  Believable, but not necessarily true.  This would imply that the cells' position (really, all its attributes) is limited to discrete and bounded values, and I'm not too sure about the discrete part.  Let's assume this is true though.  Given a human mind with finite cells, the mind has a finite number of states.

3. Confusing stuff.  You can simplify this a lot.  Just require that a unique concept be given a unique brain state.  You've already said the states are finite, thus the concepts are finite.

4. Thus this arbitrary mind can only ever (work in some time stuff here too) realize a finite number of concepts.  I think this would work even if you gave the mind an infinite amount of time, so long as you bounded it to finitely many states for the entire duration.  Not sure how realistic that bound would be  though.

 

Now what you've shown here is that given any arbitrary human mind, that mind will only ever conceive of finitely many things (and if we except that this works over infinite time, then that mind is only capable of conceiving finitely many things).  In other words, for each human mind, there exists only finitely many concepts realizable by that mind.  This is not the same as showing that concept-space is finite.  To show that concept-space is finite you need to show that the set of things conceivable by any given mind, summed over every possible minds, is finite.  If there are infinitely many possible minds then you could very well be out of luck there, even if your argument holds over infinite time.

And remember, you can't just say "there will only ever be a finite number of minds" here, because that just demonstrates that the set of things that will ever be conceived is finite, and has little to do with the set of things that could ever be conceived.

And another note:  Even showing that there exist things which can never be conceived (which your argument doesn't attempt.  I just bring it up because many people use an argument like yours to try and prove this) doesn't show that concept-space is finite.  After all, there exist non-integer numbers but that doesn't mean that there are only finitely many integers.

Questions for Theists:
http://silverskeptic.blogspot.com/2011/03/consistent-standards.html

I'm a bit of a lurker. Every now and then I will come out of my cave with a flurry of activity. Then the Ph.D. program calls and I must fall back to the shadows.


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Also, I've realized that I

Also, I've realized that I should change my analogy.

 

There's a difference between "given any list anyone will ever write, that list is finite" (true) and "there are only finitely many listable things" (false).

Questions for Theists:
http://silverskeptic.blogspot.com/2011/03/consistent-standards.html

I'm a bit of a lurker. Every now and then I will come out of my cave with a flurry of activity. Then the Ph.D. program calls and I must fall back to the shadows.


BobSpence
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I was not trying to argue

I was not trying to argue that concept-space itself is finite, but I will maintain that the concept space accessible to human thought is inherently finite. 

 

Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality

"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris

The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me

From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology


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But you didn't show that

But you didn't show that either.

 

Your argument addresses what will be accessed by human thought.  This may very well be different then what can be accessed by human thought.

Questions for Theists:
http://silverskeptic.blogspot.com/2011/03/consistent-standards.html

I'm a bit of a lurker. Every now and then I will come out of my cave with a flurry of activity. Then the Ph.D. program calls and I must fall back to the shadows.