Slavery and Religion

Dmasterman
atheist
Posts: 58
Joined: 2010-01-01
User is offlineOffline
Slavery and Religion

Hey all, I wanted to get a broader spectrum on slavery and it's relation to religion, I was hoping if some people can help me out with this.

 

The main things I want to investigate are:

Were their truths that religion created or at least inspired slavery? I recall that there were claims that early America (or mainly the South) believed the bible told them that slavery of blacks were okay. This theory may have gone back to even before the US was created with British slavery.

 

I've also heard that Islam has had it's share of African slaves as well, but I've never really found too much sources into it.

 

thanks


Wonderist
atheist
Wonderist's picture
Posts: 2479
Joined: 2006-03-19
User is offlineOffline
The Egyptians used their

The Egyptians used their religion and political structure to acquire slaves to build pyramidal tombs for superstitious reasons about the afterlife. Does that count?

I'm not sure when the first slavery happened. It's probably older than religion. But religion sure liked to exploit it whenever it could.

Wonderist on Facebook — Support the idea of wonderism by 'liking' the Wonderism page — or join the open Wonderism group to take part in the discussion!

Gnu Atheism Facebook group — All gnu-friendly RRS members welcome (including Luminon!) — Try something gnu!


Dmasterman
atheist
Posts: 58
Joined: 2010-01-01
User is offlineOffline
natural wrote:The Egyptians

natural wrote:

The Egyptians used their religion and political structure to acquire slaves to build pyramidal tombs for superstitious reasons about the afterlife. Does that count?

I'm not sure when the first slavery happened. It's probably older than religion. But religion sure liked to exploit it whenever it could.

 

yeah it does!

I forgot to think that far.. I guess we should throw in other older cultures too. But I did want to know about the modern ones I listed too.

 

Thanks!


The Specialist
The Specialist's picture
Posts: 5
Joined: 2010-10-19
User is offlineOffline
[Smile, Jesus loves you. 

[

Smile, Jesus loves you.


 


Cpt_pineapple
atheist
Posts: 5492
Joined: 2007-04-12
User is offlineOffline
Didn't the non-religious

Didn't the non-religious founding fathers have slaves?


Answers in Gene...
High Level Donor
Answers in Gene Simmons's picture
Posts: 4214
Joined: 2008-11-11
User is offlineOffline
natural wrote:The Egyptians

natural wrote:

The Egyptians used their religion and political structure to acquire slaves to build pyramidal tombs for superstitious reasons about the afterlife. Does that count?

I'm not sure when the first slavery happened. It's probably older than religion. But religion sure liked to exploit it whenever it could.

 

Well, the code of Hammaurabi mentions slaves dozens of times.  That is likely to be the oldest written record on the matter (or if not really close to it).

 

Also, I am only guessing on your second conjecture but religion and slavery both seem to me to require a certain level of development where people can start developing specialized classes in the work force.  So probably there would be little to none of either found among hunter gatherers.  Thus I am thinking that they probably both seemed to come into being at some point not too long after the development of agriculture.

NoMoreCrazyPeople wrote:
Never ever did I say enything about free, I said "free."

=


Jeffrick
High Level DonorRational VIP!SuperfanGold Member
Jeffrick's picture
Posts: 2446
Joined: 2008-03-25
User is offlineOffline
????????????

The Specialist wrote:

[

Smile, Jesus loves you.


 

 

 

 

                         How is that possible? Jesus/Joshua Bar Yusuf was a fictional charactor, all your wishful thinking will not change that.

 

 

      .

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?


cj
atheistRational VIP!
cj's picture
Posts: 3330
Joined: 2007-01-05
User is offlineOffline
Cpt_pineapple wrote:Didn't

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Didn't the non-religious founding fathers have slaves?

 

Most of them had slaves - except, was it Adams, who was Quaker?  You could run one of those large plantations a lot more profitably with slaves than without.

There is an entire section in the OT where how to treat one's slave is explicated in great detail.  Since the instructions and penalties were listed in the bible, a lot of people figured god thought having slaves was just fine.  Someone else will have to look it up for you or you can go to one of the searchable bible web sites.

It all depends on your definition of slavery, I suppose.  An indentured servant whose pay was so low they would never be able to pay off their indebtedness - slave?  A serf who had to give so much of his goods to the local lord of the manor that he and his children starved - slave?  A person who ran the household, living in what was luxury for the times but not paid - slave?  Stuck in Dilbert land - slave?

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.


Jeffrick
High Level DonorRational VIP!SuperfanGold Member
Jeffrick's picture
Posts: 2446
Joined: 2008-03-25
User is offlineOffline
You bet!!

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Didn't the non-religious founding fathers have slaves?

 

 

               Hypocracy in politicians is nothing new to the modern generation.  The Main writers of the U.S. founding documents Jefferson and Monroe were indeed slave owners and probably didn't even see the hypocracy between what they wrote and what they did.

 

 

"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."

VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"

If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?


Beyond Saving
atheist
Beyond Saving's picture
Posts: 5526
Joined: 2007-10-12
User is offlineOffline
Jeffrick wrote:Cpt_pineapple

Jeffrick wrote:

Cpt_pineapple wrote:

Didn't the non-religious founding fathers have slaves?

 

 

               Hypocracy in politicians is nothing new to the modern generation.  The Main writers of the U.S. founding documents Jefferson and Monroe were indeed slave owners and probably didn't even see the hypocracy between what they wrote and what they did.

 

 

Jefferson certainly did recognize the hypocrisy and was against the institution of slavery. However, simply "freeing" slaves wasn't that easy. If you freed a slave, what would they do? How would they live? In a letter to Edward Bancroft he wrote

"As far as I can judge from the experiments which have been made, to give liberty to, or rather to abandon persons whose habits have been formed in slavery is like abandoning children"

 

In a letter to Edward Rutledge he wrote

"I congratulate you, my dear friend, on the law of your State, for suspending the importation of slaves, and for the glory you have justly acquired by endeavoring to prevent it forever. This abomination must have an end. And there is a superior bench reserved in heaven for those who hasten it."

 

In a letter to Thomas Cooper 

"Do not mistake me. I am not advocating slavery. I am not justifying the wrongs we have committed on a foreign people... On the contrary, there is nothing I would not sacrifice to a practicable plan of abolishing every vestige of this moral and political depravity."

 

He also recognized the problems and violence that would occur with abolition,

"It will probably be asked, Why not retain and incorporate the blacks into the State [instead of colonizing them]? Deep rooted prejudices entertained by the whites, ten thousand recollections by the blacks of the injuries they have sustained, new provocations, the real distinctions which nature has made, and many other circumstances will divide us into parties and produce convulsions which will probably never end but in the extermination of the one or the other race."

Looking back at history, we can see that the abolition of slavery did lead to decades of racial violence. It took a Civil War and over a hundred years for blacks to gain any semblance of widespread equality. When the country was young could it have survived such a battle? Clearly not. Slaves were an integral part of the (fragile) economy and the country was still licking its wounds from the Revolutionary War. If the states were unable to stay together the British or even one of the other European powers probably would have taken advantage of the weakness. If you read Jefferson's letters that he wrote both before and after writing the Constitution it is quite clear that he was against slavery but did not see a practical way to abolish it without destroying the young country he worked so hard to create. And as horrible as it is, I believe he was right. I don't think our country would be here today had the slavery issue been forced at the founding. 

 

@ the OP, slavery existed in ancient Greece and also in many hunter-gatherer societies which tended to take slaves (usually women) from groups they conquered in battle. I don't think there is really any correlation between slavery and religion other than popular religions will adjust themselves to fit society. People in the south used the bible to justify slavery just as people now use it against slavery. Christians will make the bible mean whatever they want it to mean and if you read the conflicting words to them you are "taking it out of context" or "you don't understand". Slavery is certainly older than Christianity and may be older than religion or at least organized religion. 

 

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


EXC
atheist
EXC's picture
Posts: 4130
Joined: 2008-01-17
User is offlineOffline
What religion does is play

What religion does is play it both ways on any issue. This way, people can justify any behavior by picking out the appropriate verses and ignoring the rest. They've got an angry, vengeful god that is also loving and forgiving. A big carrot and a big stick.

Before the civil war, there was a huge debate among the religious groups. One side saying slavery was ordained by god they other claiming a loving god does not permit this mistreatment. Each had their verses. It lead to a split in the churches. Each side claiming god was on their side. The ferocity of the war was in large part driven by each side claiming god was on their side.

So if want to hold slaves, one can use religion for that. If you want to claim religion makes slavery immoral, you can claim that too. Religion after all is moral relativism, a moral standard that is whatever is convenient.

Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen


Atheistextremist
atheist
Atheistextremist's picture
Posts: 5134
Joined: 2009-09-17
User is offlineOffline
It's humerous to

 

speculate that god's plan is the acquisition of tens of millions of slaves to run his 24-carat household. An eternity of scrubbing the staircases and wiping god's titanic arse might possibly await.

 

 

"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck


cj
atheistRational VIP!
cj's picture
Posts: 3330
Joined: 2007-01-05
User is offlineOffline
Atheistextremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

speculate that god's plan is the acquisition of tens of millions of slaves to run his 24-carat household. An eternity of scrubbing the staircases and wiping god's titanic arse might possibly await.

 

I am so going to hell.

-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.

"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken

"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.