Is there a moral equivalence between Islamic patriarchy and the treatment of women in the West in regards to dress code?

ragdish
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Is there a moral equivalence between Islamic patriarchy and the treatment of women in the West in regards to dress code?

 

Are either of these women oppressed if they made the choice to wear their individual garb? Absolutely not. But the dichotomy is clear to me. In totalitarian Islamic theocracies, women are forced to wear the burqa and in the Western secular world, a woman can wear the scantilly clad bikini or whatever the hell she wants. And yet certain feminists (as in this article  http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2009/07/09/from-bikinis-burqas-feminist-politics-clothing&nbspEye-wink argue that rather than being critical of oppressive roots of the burqa, instead we should be critical of all patriarchical norms that shape different styles of dress including the bikini. Granted, I do not support the burqa ban in France but I don't support the notion that western women ultimately have no choice. I don't buy the argument that western women are coercively conditioned from birth to conform to a hypersexualized, objectifying, patriarchical standard of attire. I don't buy that western women are devoid of agency in how they groom but are mindless automatons bathed in a sea of patriarchy that ultimately commands them to dress like Kim Kardashian.

Mind you, women are constantly bombarded by beauty imagery and no doubt this has negative consequences:

 

But so do fast food ads and virtually any other meme in the media. And the Burger King ads do not invade the minds of helpless vegetarians and transform them into carnivores. And similarly in a free society, a women clad in a burqa continues to do so and is not coerced into wearing a bikini. I agree that no choice is made in a vacuum and decisions are shaped by the prevailing culture for the better or worse for women. Democracies are never perfect. But I completely disagree that this is the same as women forcibly subjected to the  cultural rules of totalitarian Islamic ideology. 


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The burqa presents an image

The burqa presents an image of modesty: 'I am covered from head to toe, no sex here, go away.'

The bikini presents an image of a sex offering: 'Look at me, I'm hot, you know you want it, come and get it.'

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


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Me Personally

Me personally, I think a woman or a man, should be allowed to do with their bodies, whatever they please and convey whatever image that they want to convey.

 

I agree with Ragdish.

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 I agree with Ragdish as

 I agree with Ragdish as well and would add to it that you should be allowed to wear nothing if you want to. It is absolutely ridiculous how upset people get at nudity and extremely sexist that I can walk around topless but if my GF does she is breaking the law. Whatever your mother might have told you, looking at boobs doesn't make you go blind.

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote: I

Beyond Saving wrote:

 I agree with Ragdish as well and would add to it that you should be allowed to wear nothing if you want to. It is absolutely ridiculous how upset people get at nudity and extremely sexist that I can walk around topless but if my GF does she is breaking the law. Whatever your mother might have told you, looking at boobs doesn't make you go blind.

I always heard it was masturbating that made you go blind...looking a boobs can cause it too???

Choosing clothing or, none, isn't that simple...especially with a species of animal that is fixated on sex.

Appropriateness and safety need to be considered as well...and sometimes, there needs to be laws in place to ensure these issues are considered.

I wouldn't want to go to a nude gyno and I wouldn't want to spray pesticide without wearing the proper protective clothing.

Some people instinctively know what is appropriate and others don't.

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


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Sandycane wrote:Beyond

Sandycane wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

 I agree with Ragdish as well and would add to it that you should be allowed to wear nothing if you want to. It is absolutely ridiculous how upset people get at nudity and extremely sexist that I can walk around topless but if my GF does she is breaking the law. Whatever your mother might have told you, looking at boobs doesn't make you go blind.

I always heard it was masturbating that made you go blind...looking a boobs can cause it too???

Choosing clothing or, none, isn't that simple...especially with a species of animal that is fixated on sex.

Appropriateness and safety need to be considered as well...and sometimes, there needs to be laws in place to ensure these issues are considered.

I wouldn't want to go to a nude gyno and I wouldn't want to spray pesticide without wearing the proper protective clothing.

Some people instinctively know what is appropriate and others don't.

Looking at boobs can cause masturbation.

 

Now appropriateness and safety: How do you define what is appropriate and why is your definition better than someone else's? (Sound like another thread? 

With safety, I assume you mean like if I am driving and see some cute girl with her boobs out causing me to crash into the car in front of me. Half of the reason we are obsessed with nudity is because it is taboo. If it wasn't a rare sight we wouldn't be as obsessed with it. I've been to nudist colonies and after enough time a nude woman isn't any more distracting than an attractive woman in sexy clothes.

I wouldn't spray pesticide in a t-shirt either but that doesn't mean we should ban t-shirts. I'm not saying everyone should be forced to walk around nude, just that you should have that option without being thrown in jail for the night. If you don't want to fine. But why do you care if someone else wants to? I imagine most businesses would have some kind of dress code for their employees appropriate to their business and the image they want to project just like they do now. And many businesses might have a dress code for their customers just like some businesses on a beech have "No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service" signs or some upscale restaurants require formal dressing. So why do we need laws?

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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Beyond Saving wrote:Looking

Beyond Saving wrote:

Looking at boobs can cause masturbation.

Now appropriateness and safety: How do you define what is appropriate and why is your definition better than someone else's? (Sound like another thread? 

With safety, I assume you mean like if I am driving and see some cute girl with her boobs out causing me to crash into the car in front of me. Half of the reason we are obsessed with nudity is because it is taboo. If it wasn't a rare sight we wouldn't be as obsessed with it. I've been to nudist colonies and after enough time a nude woman isn't any more distracting than an attractive woman in sexy clothes.

I wouldn't spray pesticide in a t-shirt either but that doesn't mean we should ban t-shirts. I'm not saying everyone should be forced to walk around nude, just that you should have that option without being thrown in jail for the night. If you don't want to fine. But why do you care if someone else wants to? I imagine most businesses would have some kind of dress code for their employees appropriate to their business and the image they want to project just like they do now. And many businesses might have a dress code for their customers just like some businesses on a beech have "No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service" signs or some upscale restaurants require formal dressing. So why do we need laws?

  Because:
Quote:

Looking at boobs can cause masturbation.

 Now, if we are talking about instituting a specific dress code for a specific race, nationality or, gender - as they do in the Middle East -  I am opposed to that. But, I think certain laws concerning public nudity need to be in place.

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


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Beyond Saving wrote: I

Beyond Saving wrote:

 I agree with Ragdish as well and would add to it that you should be allowed to wear nothing if you want to. It is absolutely ridiculous how upset people get at nudity and extremely sexist that I can walk around topless but if my GF does she is breaking the law. Whatever your mother might have told you, looking at boobs doesn't make you go blind.

Sorry Beyond... I do NOT wish to see your moobs.

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Kapkao wrote:Sorry Beyond...

Kapkao wrote:

Sorry Beyond... I do NOT wish to see your moobs.

Exactly! I was going to say something similar but, didn't want to offend anyone... some people NEED  to wear clothes!

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


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Sandycane wrote:Kapkao

Sandycane wrote:

Kapkao wrote:

Sorry Beyond... I do NOT wish to see your moobs.

Exactly! I was going to say something similar but, didn't want to offend anyone... some people NEED  to wear clothes!

Don't ever worry about offending me. It is a really hard thing to do.

 

And yes, some people should not be naked. Some people should not wear spandex. And some people should not be seen in public. That doesn't mean we should pass a law. I would rather see an attractive person naked than an ugly person clothed. Maybe we should just pass a law that says ugly people have to wear burkas and everyone else can wear whatever they want.

 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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I agree with Beyond Saving

I agree with Beyond Saving on that one. I have noticed, during the time that I was in Europe, that their attitude towards sex and nudity did not seem to have the Puritan type of hint, that seems pretty pervasive here in the States. Now that's just my own opinion and I could be wrong. But, does nudity and sex somehow self-destruct society ? Me personally, I don't think so.

Having said that, I personally never walk around without my shirt on nor do I ever wear shorts. Not because I am a dude that has an opinion about modesty, but because T-shirts, jeans and boots are what I feel comfortable in. I wouldn't expect everyone else to dress exactly like me and think of them as somehow indecent if they did not.

I personally do not see where anyone in Western Society is FORCING women to dress provocatively, unlike the more fundamentalist Islamic countries where burkas have to be worn by law. Now granted, women may choose to wear their burkas in more free society where it is their right to do so and if that is their free will, then I don't think I have a right to tell them to do otherwise, even though I feel that the sexual repression of Islam is very insane.

The issue of the original post seemed to be, was our society somehow FORCING some sort of sexuality upon women by trends and fads ? I personally do not see the comparison to trends and fads and Islamic law.

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Beyond Saving wrote:Don't

Beyond Saving wrote:

Don't ever worry about offending me. It is a really hard thing to do.

And yes, some people should not be naked. Some people should not wear spandex. And some people should not be seen in public. That doesn't mean we should pass a law. I would rather see an attractive person naked than an ugly person clothed. Maybe we should just pass a law that says ugly people have to wear burkas and everyone else can wear whatever they want.

That won't work: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


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Sandycane wrote:Beyond

Sandycane wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

Don't ever worry about offending me. It is a really hard thing to do.

And yes, some people should not be naked. Some people should not wear spandex. And some people should not be seen in public. That doesn't mean we should pass a law. I would rather see an attractive person naked than an ugly person clothed. Maybe we should just pass a law that says ugly people have to wear burkas and everyone else can wear whatever they want.

That won't work: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Well obviously such a law would be filed under "Beyond Savings Brand Totalitarian Moral Law" so I would be the sole judge of who is attractive and who is ugly. 

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X


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It's an expression of where

It's an expression of where the power lies in society. In Islamic cultures, power comes from religious opression. In western cultures, power comes from the almighty dollar and sex sells. Males that run these power structures hijack female sexuality to maintain their power.

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EXC wrote:It's an expression

EXC wrote:

It's an expression of where the power lies in society. In Islamic cultures, power comes from religious opression. In western cultures, power comes from the almighty dollar and sex sells. Males that run these power structures hijack female sexuality to maintain their power.

Good point.

I think the main difference between Mid Eastern dress code and that of the US is that they present a sexless appearance and we promote sex.

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But I must point out

Sandycane wrote:

EXC wrote:

It's an expression of where the power lies in society. In Islamic cultures, power comes from religious opression. In western cultures, power comes from the almighty dollar and sex sells. Males that run these power structures hijack female sexuality to maintain their power.

Good point.

I think the main difference between Mid Eastern dress code and that of the US is that they present a sexless appearance and we promote sex.

 

But I  still see a major difference between an actual law that forces severe retributions for the way that the women in the Middle East dress and our own culture. Outside of office dress codes at work (which do not seem to promote sex, in my opinion) no one is telling women how to dress. There doesn't seem to be actual laws that demand that women must dress provocatively as it is dictated by a "Holy" book. There are women in the U.S. that choose to dress very conservatively. Their are certain Christian religious groups, like the Pentecostals, where the women  always wear dresses and always keep their hair tied back, without makeup. These particular people live and interact in American society, without being told that they must dress in a risque style. Women may choose to wear their burkas, here in the US. But in the Middle East, women can NOT choose to dress provocatively.

However, if women actually choose to dress provocatively, or if they choose to wear their burkas, I don't see the issue. I have an issue with the Islamic countries, that do not give people the power of choice, I see a problem with the theocracies, that do not allow for anyone to step outside of their absolutist dogmas. But, so far as I know, we in the US are supposed to have the freedom of religion and the freedom from religion. Whatever lifestyle that people may choose is up to them and them alone.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

But I  still see a major difference between an actual law that forces severe retributions for the way that the women in the Middle East dress and our own culture. Outside of office dress codes at work (which do not seem to promote sex, in my opinion) no one is telling women how to dress. There doesn't seem to be actual laws that demand that women must dress provocatively as it is dictated by a "Holy" book. There are women in the U.S. that choose to dress very conservatively. Their are certain Christian religious groups, like the Pentecostals, where the women  always wear dresses and always keep their hair tied back, without makeup. These particular people live and interact in American society, without being told that they must dress in a risque style. Women may choose to wear their burkas, here in the US. But in the Middle East, women can NOT choose to dress provocatively.

However, if women actually choose to dress provocatively, or if they choose to wear their burkas, I don't see the issue. I have an issue with the Islamic countries, that do not give people the power of choice, I see a problem with the theocracies, that do not allow for anyone to step outside of their absolutist dogmas. But, so far as I know, we in the US are supposed to have the freedom of religion and the freedom from religion. Whatever lifestyle that people may choose is up to them and them alone.

Agreed. However, the clothes you 'decide' to buy are the options the fashion designers and store buyers have offered you... unless you know how to sew.

Then you are not obligated to wear this years current styles/uniforms.

'Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.' A. Einstein


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If safety is an issue,

If safety is an issue, billboards on highways should be banned first - since they are specifically designed to attract the attention of the people on the highway...

And if nudity was more commonly seen, it would be less distracting.

Even where I live, where I do see burqas from time to time, I find them more distracting that women displaying quite a lot of skin, because they still seem strange to me.

It strikes me as particularly bizarre to see dress like that during our summer, with temperatures into the 90's, often with high humidity, in amongst other women exposing quite a lot of skin in typical summer clothes.

Altho in many cases, as far as I can tell, many of the women I do see in burqas, should arguably keep wearing them, to hide some rather less than attractive bodies.

I should mention that I live in Brisbane, Australia, and have at least one new housing estate close to where I live where quite a number of immigrants/refugees seem to have settled.

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Agree Bob

BobSpence1 wrote:

If safety is an issue, billboards on highways should be banned first - since they are specifically designed to attract the attention of the people on the highway...

And if nudity was more commonly seen, it would be less distracting.

Even where I live, where I do see burqas from time to time, I find them more distracting that women displaying quite a lot of skin, because they still seem strange to me.

It strikes me as particularly bizarre to see dress like that during our summer, with temperatures into the 90's, often with high humidity, in amongst other women exposing quite a lot of skin in typical summer clothes.

Altho in many cases, as far as I can tell, many of the women I do see in burqas, should arguably keep wearing them, to hide some rather less than attractive bodies.

I should mention that I live in Brisbane, Australia, and have at least one new housing estate close to where I live where quite a number of immigrants/refugees seem to have settled.

 

I agree Bob. If nudity and sexuality were more commonly displayed, I think people would find less of an issue with it.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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True enough but

Sandycane wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

But I  still see a major difference between an actual law that forces severe retributions for the way that the women in the Middle East dress and our own culture. Outside of office dress codes at work (which do not seem to promote sex, in my opinion) no one is telling women how to dress. There doesn't seem to be actual laws that demand that women must dress provocatively as it is dictated by a "Holy" book. There are women in the U.S. that choose to dress very conservatively. Their are certain Christian religious groups, like the Pentecostals, where the women  always wear dresses and always keep their hair tied back, without makeup. These particular people live and interact in American society, without being told that they must dress in a risque style. Women may choose to wear their burkas, here in the US. But in the Middle East, women can NOT choose to dress provocatively.

However, if women actually choose to dress provocatively, or if they choose to wear their burkas, I don't see the issue. I have an issue with the Islamic countries, that do not give people the power of choice, I see a problem with the theocracies, that do not allow for anyone to step outside of their absolutist dogmas. But, so far as I know, we in the US are supposed to have the freedom of religion and the freedom from religion. Whatever lifestyle that people may choose is up to them and them alone.

Agreed. However, the clothes you 'decide' to buy are the options the fashion designers and store buyers have offered you... unless you know how to sew.

Then you are not obligated to wear this years current styles/uniforms.

 

Yes, but couldn't it be said that everything that EVERYONE wears, displays some sort of image or notion that they may want to convey ? Or, perhaps, the issue of comfort might come into play.

Take me for example. I am guy, that always dresses in all black, wears biker boots and jeans and t-shirts with certain metal bands advertised on them. I have long hair and a beard. Granted, alot of people may perceive me a certain way (comically enough, when they talk to me, I often am told "Your more intelligent than you appear" and I am never sure how to take that) but I dress the way that I do because of comfort and partly because of style. Is sexuality a prime motive for that ? I don't necessarily think so, but could be wrong. Did society somehow impose that particular look upon me, many many years ago, when I began to dress that way ? Hmm, that is something that I would have to think about before giving a definite answer to.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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You know

Sandycane wrote:

The burqa presents an image of modesty: 'I am covered from head to toe, no sex here, go away.'

The bikini presents an image of a sex offering: 'Look at me, I'm hot, you know you want it, come and get it.'

 

It's pretty obvious the human body, while it's relatively young at any rate, is designed to attract the strong attention of the opposite sex for the reason of procreation.

No doubt when we lived in family groups and caught up once a year for a big shindig/orgy in a cave overlooking the great rift valley this worked fine. Now we live in cities of millions and it's harder to handle.

I'm not sure the bikini is a direct offering of sex. It's also an expression of sexual power. Those who think women are simply victims of male lust are mistaken.  Men and women leverage the power they have, whatever that power might be.

In any case, much is cultural . In parts of Europe being topless on the beach is normal for women and no one makes a shred of fuss. Girls from 1-60yo are topless and paying attention to it is considered being vulgar.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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EXC wrote:It's an expression

EXC wrote:

It's an expression of where the power lies in society. In Islamic cultures, power comes from religious opression. In western cultures, power comes from the almighty dollar and sex sells. Males that run these power structures hijack female sexuality to maintain their power.

I really don't think that the wealthy woman below is really a hapless victim to a male hijacked capitalist power structure. She is merely exploiting her looks to take advantage of a capitalist power structure wherein sex does indeed sell. It is up to you to decide whether she is self-empowered or self-objectified. In contrast to an Islamic society, she is not being coerced by a law to dress this way.

And this very talented actress can freely break away from her sex selling image and don a totally asexual attire:

Salma Hayek plays the bearded lady.

Yep, that's Salma Hayek as a bearded lady. An image that most men won't pay top dollar to masturbate to but nonetheless, a freedom that is only granted in a secular democratic society that does not have oppressive laws towards women.

BTW I'd still fantasize about fucking Salma Hayek if she is a bearded lady. But that's just me.

 


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Right on Atheist Extremist

Atheistextremist wrote:

Sandycane wrote:

The burqa presents an image of modesty: 'I am covered from head to toe, no sex here, go away.'

The bikini presents an image of a sex offering: 'Look at me, I'm hot, you know you want it, come and get it.'

 

It's pretty obvious the human body, while it's relatively young at any rate, is designed to attract the strong attention of the opposite sex for the reason of procreation.

No doubt when we lived in family groups and caught up once a year for a big shindig/orgy in a cave overlooking the great rift valley this worked fine. Now we live in cities of millions and it's harder to handle.

I'm not sure the bikini is a direct offering of sex. It's also an expression of sexual power. Those who think women are simply victims of male lust are mistaken.  Men and women leverage the power they have, whatever that power might be.

In any case, much is cultural . In parts of Europe being topless on the beach is normal for women and no one makes a shred of fuss. Girls from 1-60yo are topless and paying attention to it is considered being vulgar.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Excellent points Atheist Extremist ! I agree.

“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno


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harleysportster

harleysportster wrote:

Sandycane wrote:

harleysportster wrote:

But I  still see a major difference between an actual law that forces severe retributions for the way that the women in the Middle East dress and our own culture. Outside of office dress codes at work (which do not seem to promote sex, in my opinion) no one is telling women how to dress. There doesn't seem to be actual laws that demand that women must dress provocatively as it is dictated by a "Holy" book. There are women in the U.S. that choose to dress very conservatively. Their are certain Christian religious groups, like the Pentecostals, where the women  always wear dresses and always keep their hair tied back, without makeup. These particular people live and interact in American society, without being told that they must dress in a risque style. Women may choose to wear their burkas, here in the US. But in the Middle East, women can NOT choose to dress provocatively.

However, if women actually choose to dress provocatively, or if they choose to wear their burkas, I don't see the issue. I have an issue with the Islamic countries, that do not give people the power of choice, I see a problem with the theocracies, that do not allow for anyone to step outside of their absolutist dogmas. But, so far as I know, we in the US are supposed to have the freedom of religion and the freedom from religion. Whatever lifestyle that people may choose is up to them and them alone.

Agreed. However, the clothes you 'decide' to buy are the options the fashion designers and store buyers have offered you... unless you know how to sew.

Then you are not obligated to wear this years current styles/uniforms.

 

Yes, but couldn't it be said that everything that EVERYONE wears, displays some sort of image or notion that they may want to convey ? Or, perhaps, the issue of comfort might come into play.

Take me for example. I am guy, that always dresses in all black, wears biker boots and jeans and t-shirts with certain metal bands advertised on them. I have long hair and a beard. Granted, alot of people may perceive me a certain way (comically enough, when they talk to me, I often am told "Your more intelligent than you appear" and I am never sure how to take that) but I dress the way that I do because of comfort and partly because of style. Is sexuality a prime motive for that ? I don't necessarily think so, but could be wrong. Did society somehow impose that particular look upon me, many many years ago, when I began to dress that way ? Hmm, that is something that I would have to think about before giving a definite answer to.

 

I think it is impossible to separate the way you dress from your social groups. We dress in certain attire to fit in with our various social cliques. If you hang out with bikers you are probably going to dress like a biker. If you show up in a biker bar as a male wearing a pink tutu, well your endeavor to fit in with the group might not work out so well.

I think once dressing habits are established they are very difficult for people to change simply because it is more comfortable (and easier) to stay with the familiar. My dressing habits were formed when I worked with and hung out with lawyers, I continue to wear business casual on a day to day basis because it is pretty much what I have always worn even though my current job does not require it. It is easier for me to give my ex a couple hundred bucks to go get me new clothes once a year and she knows what brands and sizes to get and I don't have to shop or try things on. 

So I don't think it was society as a whole that imposed your dress code so much as the social cliques you chose.

And Sandycane exactly what style of clothes can you not buy in America? I've seen everything from burkhas, to clothes made from garbage bags, to the good old American Daisy Dukes (my favorite).  

If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X