No but you can reify the heck out of it.

 

 

Let's have a bit of Irish philosophy. Take a plane to JFK and a train to Stamford. I will show you chi. I will take you out for a bunch of beers right after.

Yes.

Yes, of course, but then you're just begging the question i.e. assuming that chi energy exists.

If you don't have evidence, then the belief is unjustified. That is all. If they can't demonstrate their "awareness," then anyone who is "unaware" has just as much reason to believe them as they do for any pseudoscience - none.

I am not.

There are other colors.

Those are both definitively dichotomies.

No, that is not what I'm saying. Strawman.

Regardless of whether there is any truth in it or whether we can know about it, the fact is we don't know about it right now. Ergo, it is simply an unjustified claim, and it is irrational to believe it.

If you don't have evidence, then you're just speculating.

I have no idea what you're talking about. 

i'm in.  well, for the beer anyway.  i don't give a fuck about chi.

(in fact, to show how little i even think of it, i at first thought nmcp made this thread about something happening in chicago.)

Lum,

Chi is a label like Buddhism is. Sam Harris as an irrational affinity to Buddhism and he is a smart guy too. Not knowing how someone does something doe not mean the label is magically the cause, it merely means the person  doing it is not giving out their secret.

Training is what is going on in this. Just like a stunt man cant merely jump off a tall building. Just like an NFL kicker has to train for bad weather and long kicks. Just like even in the ACTING called the WWE the actors are well trained physically.

Humans have a range of physical ability and tolerance, and some can be trained or study and do things others cannot do physically. Not knowing how something is done does not constitute a stupid label being the cause. It merely means YOU don't know the natural reason, be it faked and a trick, or merely a matter of the type of training. Either way, there is no magic to life.

All superstitions are the result of intellectual laziness and merely the fantasy people stick in as a gap answer where answers may lack. There may be things about life we don't know, that is true, but there is no such thing as magic. Never was and never will be.

That sounds good.

Actually, I would be extremely surprised if something like that hasn't already been done. I don't know about any such experiments though.

Yes, but I don't judge the research by modern scientists to be equal to studies by people in various cultures in the past; it's just not the same. "Research" was not rigorous, largely anecdotal, subject to confirmation bias, etc. Hundreds of accounts of personal experiences with chi isn't worth as much as one reliable method of obtaining objective evidence. 

That is somewhat of a problem, but I think you're exaggerating by far. There are currently many scientists around the world working to test ideas that are considered pseudoscience.  

I am interested to a very limited extent. I consider the possibility of any idea, but if it has no evidence yet, why should I be more interested in it than in any other pseudoscience?

Well, we don't need to ask "what if." That is precisely how it works.

We have to experiment and gather evidence to support a claim. I would not reject claims and then oppose conducting tests to evaluate those claims. That is irrational and silly. In fact, if I was in a position to carry out research myself, I would not mind exploring these subjects.

I don't know what do you mean by placebo, it does not fit the description.  This strange perception of mine is inborn with lifetime duration, it can not be possibly an effect of placebo, wishful thinking, indoctrination, delusion and so on. Behind all this there is a puzzled yet normally thinking brain in a very unusual situation, not a deluded brain spicing up an ordinary life situation.
Yes, I've participated on many therapies and meditations, but only for mundane purposes like development of character or as a service. I don't need to gather more woo abilities than I already have. I also don't need any unusual means to relieve stress.

Again, I have diffculty seeing what you mean. My strange perception of chi and similar things has nothing to do with coping mechanisms or relieving stress. It simply coexists as one of things that can receive my attention during the day. And IMHO, if something (the chi) is more responsive to thought than to solid matter, then it is more "magical" than physical.

I relieve stress (if I ever have any) by reading books, listening to weird music, discussing online, and so on. If there is anything I need to keep me balanced and sane, it's an effort to stir my emotionality and pay attention to here and now.

 

You see, even logical ideas may sometimes wait for realization. So much for "if that would be true, science would already know " OK, there were some measurements taken, like this one. I'd love it to have any impact on opinions of local skeptics, but it seems to me there's not much information. I have no idea what is the ULF method (ultralente or ultraslow brain potentials) and it's obviously a 1996's translation from German.

What would such an experiment require? The observations should be taken at great detail, in the beginning to determine at least which brain centers are  active and which aren't. I already thought about functional magnetic resonance imaging. But yesterday in a skeptical podcast I heard that this method isn't reliable, it depends how well you interpret the results. Are there any more modern and better methods than fMRI?

For example, as a comparative activity of brain the people will have to get very busy, so they have no mental capacity left for chi. An ideal thing would be to measure the chi person playing some Tetris or Snake on cell phone. Which is not possible during fMRI, because it would fry the cell phone.

It's not equal, of course. But I believe it would save a lot of time with location of the alleged energetic centers on the body and meridians connecting them. My people currently study a related Theosophic literature and it closely describes a complex system most similar to electric wiring. It describes which centres are connected to which, (and together forming triangles) what kind of energy flows in them and where are the membranes that ihibit the flow of energy for safety reasons.
All I want here is a simple electronic database of such information, projected on 3D model of human body that would be easy to use as an instrument for research and updated according to further needs. Scientists don't have to start searching with nothing.

The impression I get from such accounts is, that people who wrote them were clairvoyant, they could see these things and simply wrote down what they saw. To avoid the mythology and folklore it would be best to use the Tibetyan's books, which is the Theosophic source that I use. He uses modern language, modern terms and if any mythology, then only to explain how ancient cultures called this or that.

I hope so, but I doubt they take care to know their subject of research in depth. I'd rather call them "foragers of evidence". If there is no evidence at the reach of hand, they move on. Many scientists may assume that they search for something that will advance their field somewhat, not something that will turn everything upside down.

But when it comes to investigating the woo, one must search exactly for that, to expect the unexpected. All the esotericism tells people to search for certain new states of matter, of consciousness, for new dimensions, for new forms of basic energies like electricity or fire, for new forms of life, intelligent life, and where all that fits into the esoteric cosmology. The cosmology, that stops right on the border with what the science already found out. Dark matter itself is today the borderland, which both science and esotericism are greatly interested in. Now, the trick is to try to follow what the esotericism proposes (with no evidence given in advance) and see if there is something to discover.

Well, it's usually like people study the mystical arts first and then they get to some evidence. It's like in sports, people first train their muscles and then they overcome records, not in reverse order. Unless someone finds a better way.

The advantage is, that the relevant and usable esotericism is only one, you don't need to learn all woo traditions, only the one which all the woo traditions have in common.

Sure, experiments are necessary. I only say they should be firstly experiments that try to follow the esoteric teaching in all its complexity, not trying to find "natural explanations" which lead nowhere. If something can be explained naturally, it does not yet mean that the natural explanation was really the case. People may be tempted to simplify the things to explain them away.

In case of esotericism, one can not say the answer is superstition, mythology or tradition, that would be the same as Goddidit. The best answer is to document how exactly that tradition or mythology appeared.
For example, there is a weird catholic mythology of Mary the Mother and her eventual ascension to Heaven and marriage with God. This is nothing else but thoroughly disguised description of getting control of human lower material nature (matter depicted as our mother) and human higher spiritual nature (spirit = divine father) that occurs in certain high stage of personal development. Even the crucifixtion itself probably refers to the fact, that there are etheric membranes in head that intersect each other in shape of a cross. Their natural dissolution to give way to spiritual energies is again a moment in high stage of personal development, called "crucifixtion" or "great renunciation".

This sounds like something I've read before. I've heard it's common for mutant powers to manifest during puberty. Have you researched  Xavier Institute for Higher Learning? They can teach you to control your mutant powers for the benefit of all mankind. The X-Men can help you. Luminon is great super hero name by the way.

http://marvel.wikia.com/Xavier%27s_School_for_Gifted_Youngsters

As somewhat of a martial artist, or at least an enthusiast (wish I had more time to train) this stuff has never impressed me too much (in any supernatural power kind of way), they can only do what is humanly possible.  I could break 3-4 pieces of 3/4" pine jumping over 4 people in grade 8 no problem as long as the person holding the wood knew to hold it against the grain.  If that person turns all 4 pieces of wood 90 degrees and holds them with the grain, I'm landing on my butt and the boards are going nowhere.  Concrete is just powder, no grain, it is very susceptible to cracks, that's why in construction they mix rebar with concrete, a concrete foundation alone is useless, it will crack and fall apart.  If they mixed in metal or fibreglass fibres into the concrete these guys would break their hands.  Cool demonstrations though, it certainly takes allot of conditioning and focus, but no chi involved here.  Something that is much more impressive is some martial artists ability to take almost impossible strikes, I certainly cannot do this at this time, I have seen some very impressive demonstrations of this, 4 even 5 punches and kicks at a time, but I can't find the best footage I have seen.  These videos show the discipline, start the first video around 4:30.  Some of the more impressive videos showcasing this ability (power shot to liver, right hook to jaw, high kick to the temple/neck, 5 shots at once) made me wonder what I could possibly do as an opponent to someone like this in the ring or out trained to strike just like with the same moves as the pros they brought in for the demos.    

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB7gnB31NnI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a86cQobU-n4&feature=related

 

Still no chi though, just unbelievable conditioning. 

 

There have been quite a few 'blind' studies where meridians and chi points have been shown to not exist. IOW when 'believers' thought some contact was on a meridian or chi point, there reaction was the same, whether or not it really was on some 'special' position. So it is purely psychological.

 

Meridians are just such a wires or veins for chi, not the main centers. Hell, I'm not aware of my own meridians unless they start hurting. Common people have hardly a chance of recognizing one, just like they're not aware of their normal blood veins. I can normally feel 4 of my main chakras plus the rest if I stir them up, and of course two lesser palm chakras. Don't you want from me to perceive the tiny little points and lines which are the meridians.

Anyway, I had my chi points on meridians tested through surfacial skin resistance and the results correlated with my health state tested a couple of days earlier through blood test. If some scientists can't do such a simple experiment successfully, then what good are they? All they need is to send a few people on blood test and then send them to alternative medicine practitioner proficient with EAV meter (like the one I sometimes visit) and then compare the results. If it worked for me, then it should work for everyone.
Typically, the healer I know tests each meridian point 10 times, every time hitting the same skin resistance in that point, then she writes it down and goes on. It all takes about 10 minutes per person. The results in kiloohms give sense, they show the health state of organs through which a particular meridian goes. It's so simple that even a skeptic should understand it. 70 kiloohms is very good, 50 is average, and lesser than that down to about 35 or less, that's a problem.

 

Well then, this is why the hypothesis says that there are the meridians which pass only through certain organs and their outlets show by skin resistance the health state of these organs. It has to do with nerve and endocrine system. Meridians are intermediaries between these and etheric body which overreaches our physical body a little.
This is why I have seen, that the meridian point resistance reacts on a substance in bottle that I hold at the time. This is another diagnostic method. When the state of organs is measured through resistance on the points, the patient holds the electrodes but also one or more boxes with medicine. The measurements differ according to how is the medicine useful. If a patient has liver problems and then holds something that contains a liver remedy, then the one liver meridian point will get into high resistance values, as long as the patient holds the remedy. Otherwise it does not occur.
This works thanks to the etheric body which interacts with the substance in the box and responds to it accordingly through its meridians. In this way I can get prescribed exactly the remedies I need. Cell and blood analysis would surely give much more information, but it is expensive, it takes a long time and then you have to decide which remedies to use. This procedure just shows an automatic vital response to proper or improper remedy.

This is very simple transparent procedure which lets you see exactly how it works. There is no mystery or magic involved. (except of the phase where she prescribes me the dosage, but that is also explainable) It should work for anyone.

My acupuncturist and EAV diagnostic never had any problems with finding people's meridian points. They found them instantly and got valid results from using these points. Either measurements, or physical changes that can not be placebo - like instant disappearing of allergic reaction. I'd have no idea why this is such a problem.

I don't know. I don't know how they do it, if they feel the points or probably thanks to many years or decades of practice. I also don't know if there are more meridian schemes and how is called the one they use. But I should be able to identify them, simply by pointing at these schemes that have the meridians, points or centers which I feel that they are there or if they hurt or burn me. For example, I often have such a burning feeling of certain points between my toes. This is quite a problem when trying to get asleep in a heated room. But these are surely are certain points recognized by acupuncture or reflexology.

Study

 

Like all these studies right?  Oh, wait...

 

Studies like this tend to show the same thing...this crap actually works, but it is only a placebo effect.  When you *ask* someone if they are better after alternative medicine they say yes.  If you actually test if they are better in a scientific way (blow in the tube, measure flow rate), there is no improvement.

Luminon, there is no systematic study that demonstrates any of that. There is no way to prove, without some fairly invasive probing, or maybe at least an expensive full-body CT scan, that the actual state of any of your internal organs correlates with any such test or external resistance measurement.

And of course  some woo practitioner will instantly 'find' a meridian point.  A valid test would be to pick a point at random and compare, except it would be hard to arrange, since the subject would have to believe the person doing it was  real 'practioner', since a 'real' practioner would almost certainly not participate in such a test.

Although acupuncture itself has been thoroughly proven to be no better than placebo.

 

Nope, I think that blood analysis like anyone can have is sufficient to compare the information, if you add to it some long-term health records of a patient. For example, EAV meter can detect a heart weakness or knee sediments that the patient knows very well. It's really best to keep it simple, efficient and expressive, without getting lost in details. The first study should be to show that it really works, other studies might try to tell how.

I think a real practitioner would have no idea why such thing is necessary, when it doesn't help to diagnose the patient. They just always put the electrode to the same points between people's knuckles on each hand and foot, (about 10 times each time to show the measurement is the same) write the result down to appropriate section of a tablet and then start all over again, this time with patient also holding one or more kind of remedy.

You'd have a lot of explaining to do, but I think if you'd have yourself diagnosed also in standard way plus pay something for the extra time, there should be no problem. Besides, the herbal remedies from Energy company they sell have very high quality, our top sportsmen use them, for example hockey team, and you know how they won the world cup again recently. These drops and capsules kept me healthy in terrible conditions when I worked in car factory. You could only gain on that. I think you could achieve your right to test stuff with a cordial approach of well-meant curiosity, rather than "Hey quack, prove your right for existence!" I think the old lady that diagnoses me would be glad to show her work to some sympathic and nice scientists. But don't expect her old bones to wait for them for hours or be dragged somewhere far away for tests.

Can placebo stop instantly an allergic reaction?