Christian views on the morality of Slavery in the modern South
Posted on: December 11, 2010 - 10:28pm
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Christian views on the morality of Slavery in the modern South
Hi, guys, I need some help.
I have posted on this forum:
http://forums.timesdaily.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/4771054867
for about four years. My handle there is NotShallowNotslim.
The thread entitled "Fighting Religion" has shocked me. Here's where I need help. Am I out of line in being laid aghast at the contemporary Southern, Christian defense of the morality of slavery? Is that, indeed, the case? Have they done so?
I seem not to be making my point that, in the Bible's lavish discussions of slavery, not ONCE does it condemn the institution.
Have my communication skills deteriorated to that degree, or is something rotten in Alabama?
Thanks for your input.
Rick
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I think you're doing fine and the responses you're seeing are typical.
Try to look at it from a theists point of view. Soo...
1: Jesus/God/Bible are all true. Just a fact. It is central to their dogma and they have faith, even in the faith of reason. Many will publicly say if reality and evidence goes up against what they *believe* to be true, then their belief is what they will trust. So remember that. Also remember that most of them have been literally indoctinated since birth. Most people can't ever shake that kind of influence, no matter what the belief is. You can get kids to believe just about anything, and if a society tolerates that belief it will never stop.
2: Issues like slavery bring up nasty circular logic. Most of these Christians think morality is absolute, full stop, see #1.
2a: If morality is absolute, it doesn't change. If slavery is immoral now, it must have been immoral then. But wait, God didn't say it was immoral and he clearly supports it, which leads to the cognitive dissonance and things like, "Well, slavery back then was different!", etc, which is bullshit and they know it, but they hold two contradictory ideas (God is good but God supports slavery which is clearly immoral) and they aren't willing to evaluate either one so all they have is lame excuses.
3: Or they say morality is just based on whatever God wants, full stop. These are the people who say they would murder their children if they thought God wanted them to.
3a: Most don't like this, because it makes them seem like monsters, however, it is more rational than the above, because if you assume God is just a capricious bastard it cleans up a lot of Biblical based confusion. Many more studied hard core theists will take this approach.
But anyway, look at shit like this: http://www.livingvinechurch.org/ds/q1109/q1109.html <-- The hoops these people have to jump through are insane. I think it is interesting how a common criticism of atheism is it leads to a lack of morality, but clearly theism has the same flaw since it lets things like slavery slide for most of human history with nothing but a shrug. But oh man, if you eat pork you're screwed! God needs to have priorities you know.
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Tl,dr: These conversations are mostly hopeless because of #1. Theism isn't about 'making sense', theism is about belief based on emotion. Emotional response is enshrined as ultimate, cosmic Truth. You can beat people with their own absurdities though, it can't hurt, and if the right people see the discussion before they drink the Kool-Aid of a respective cult it can sway them.
Also, if there is a way to make people feel silly/stupid for the beliefs they hold that might be the best way to make them re-evaluate. Tricky to do though, most feel attacked and bunker up.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Rick,
Thanks for the link. It seems that most of the folks on that forum do not see anything wrong in slavery. ... maybe they should move to Afghanistan or elsewhere ...
This is why I am always scary of people like Glenn Beck - because of their flock.
Mellestad,
thanks for confirming my sanity. Yes, most of your thoughts have occurred to me, and thanks for those that had not.
I've tried to engage them into a philosophical basis for morality. None but the surprisingly large atheist community (for that area) can imagine what I mean.
For your entertainment, almost all of the people on that forum in semi-rural Alabama who make any sense whatever are atheists. But you've seen this. Either it's their only outlet, or things are changing. We're talking about solid Bible Belt here.
I so appreciate your going to the trouble you did. Thanks again, and Happy Holidays! Extra nog in your egg nog this year
Rick
100%,
You can take the Christians' tolerance, and indeed, defense of slavery at face value.
After a fashion, they do live in Afghanistan. Only we call it Talibama. And that's not just the atheists.
I post there, often and stridently, in order to break through the crusty, superstitious smugness of the valiantly pious. OK, valiant my ass. It's easy there. Somewhat less easy for my modest contributions. I love it when I make one of the zombies say "Hmmm". It happens all too rarely.
Thanks for your effort and your comment. Happy Holidays.
Rick
WE CANT HAVE SLAVES ANYMORE? SON OF A BITCH, WHY AM I ALWAYS THE LAST ONE TO KNOW?
(Note to self: Did I think this, or type it?)
What gets me, in all seriousness is how blacks can cling to Christianity after the rotten history of being enslaved and forced to convert(or at least forced to make more workers(babies) that are indoctrinated at birth)
Gays get me too, how you can be part of a religion, much less rethuglican, that despises you is beyond me. Atheists will take you as you are as individuals, religion however, takes you under conditions.
However, it isn't surprising either, for reasons already stated. Religion is a cultural thing and the marketing of the majority can and does even have an influence on the minority. Shedding dogma of any kind, political or religious is a tough nut to crack.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Brian, I'm neither black nor gay, so I can't really say. What I've found is that modern christians STILL believe that slavery was justified, and for absurd reasons. If I were black, I'd be concerned. It's happened before, you know. If slavery was justified once, can it be justified again? Best for the Solstice, Rick
If y'all are interested, see the same forum and find the thread "Dinosaurs Indeed Walked With Man".
Sheesh.
If y'all are interested, see the same forum and find the thread "Dinosaurs Indeed Walked With Man".
Sheesh.
Oh, you want to feel really violated? They've replaced McNabb with Grossman for the Cowturds game.
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!
How can not believing in something that is backed up with no empirical evidence be less scientific than believing in something that not only has no empirical evidence but actually goes against the laws of the universe and in many cases actually contradicts itself? - Ricky Gervais
Not just tolerance for slavery but tolerance for even full blown genocide against those who practiced "unclean" religions or stood in the way of prime real estate.
Maybe God, if he does exist, was quite shrewd regarding religious marketing practices by having his Holy Book in circulation long before the advent of photography. Besides, it might be a hard sale to potential converts to actually have available a lurid photographic record of God's Chosen Ones ( ancient Hebrews ) interacting with their slaves and concubines ... or even better, nice digital images of the Hebrew warriors stripping valuables from their dead victims after they concluded another one of their genocidal campaigns. Killing infants and pregnant women ? Not on camera, please, ....that's just not good tv from a seller's perspective.
Bravo to God for seeing this problem in advance and being so proactive because, as everyone living in the twentieth and twenty first century already knows, published pictures of massacres and other human rights offenses rarely bring much sympathy for the perpetrators no matter what their supposed reasons were.
Good call Big Guy..