More Good Than Harm?
Offline I wrote the title that way on purpose, because I wanted to just throw this concept out there....
As I read posts from (most) theists... and especially the ones who earn troll badges...and when I listen to intellectually ill-equipped arguments from people like Kirk Cameron... or even equally fact challenged dolts out and about... I have been wondering...
Are they actually doing the world a favor by exposing the silliness of theology? Are they making our case from the opposite end?
I remember a fundy at work, who was such an insufferable ass-socket that he probably turned more people away from the concept of god, than I could have.
Despite, evangelic chistians being more "hell fire and brimstone" than ever before, Atheist ranks keep growing... do you think there is any correlation, Or am I just being overly optomistic?
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You bet your sweet wife swap it is true. Or according to Penn Jillette " Read the bible, we need more atheists in this world and nothing will get you there faster then reading the bible."
The more confident and vocal we atheists are in public the more [far more] the so-so believers will THINK; believe me nothing will kill off the belief faster then THINKING!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you listen to any preacher then diagram their speaches you will notice the base line of ALL preaching comes down to this. " Don' t THINK I will think for you. Now here is what to THINK."
note]; keep up your good works on Tuesdays at 7:00 to 9:00 PM, UNLEARN or else!
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
That is interesting - I just heard a comment on an Atheist podcast from Utah, "Irreligiosophy", that apparently some Christians are warning others that trying to convert Mormons by pointing out the absurdities of their beliefs seems to have been turning more people to atheism, since once they see the absurdities of Mormonism, they see so many similar aspects of Christianity that they give up on all religion.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
LOL, that is funny Bob.
Rich, I think your dead on.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Of course the more theists that speak out trying to prove their views on god and on science, especially those opposed to science and common sense, the more people see how ridiculous most religious claims are. In this day and age of information, you can figure out who is speaking truthfully and who is speaking out of their ass. Just like how Ray and kirk got pwned regarding their who banana debacle, people are looking into the claims of theists to find that it's pretty empty claims they are making in regards to areas of social importance. Just like the catholic church and it's stance on condoms and of course on various other topics ranging from artificial insemination and stem cell research to social problems, theists tend to try to argue that an invisible deity really is against this stuff. People see thru this, especially younger people now. Information is available for us to examine and determine for ourselves if its right or wrong, true or false.
These days, I have seen more and more people that have drifted away from the trappings of more traditional religion and are seemingly replacing it with New Age nonsense.
Granted, while the New Ager, Goddess Praying, Be at one with Nature, Feel your aura flow type people are nowhere near as condemning as their more traditionalist counterparts, they are still as annoying. Granted, one thing about the more New Ager approach is the fact that it is more open to the idea of doing your own thing. Truth to be told, I often think of these type of theists as people who are on the verge of Atheism, but are just too afraid to give it up. So, they have replaced the hellfire and brimstone god with a incense/candle burning mother nature figure that just loves them all of the time. They generally tend to postulate that they are "RECLAIMING" the Earth that the Ancient Gods have. Funny part about that, is they conveniently leave out all of the more bloodthirsty acts of the older gods in their current system. In New Ager terms, goddess/ancient god are just feel good deities that want us to learn and grow.
Now, these New Ager types are usually pretty good at saying "Live and Let Live" unless you do not accept their nonsense. Then they get an attitude like any other Bible Thumping Theist.
Hehehe, just for laughs, here is a video of Richard Dawkins debunking Deepak Chopra :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-FaXD_igv4
One thing that does make me angry about the emergence of the feel/good New Age type movement, is all the charlatans and the frauds that are out to make a buck off of the hopes of desperate people that need to believe in something.
I think humanity would be so much better if people would jettison all this wishful hoping for superstition to be real.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
I don't think there is any evidence that people are turning to atheism. I know that exciting poll said there were some 15% non-religious folk in the country (or did they actually say atheist?) but that doesn't do anything to make me feel better. It's not a *bad* sign for sure, but it is a stretch to take comfort that we're moving in a good direction.
I disagree entirely that stupid preachers turn people away from religiosity. I would like to think that it is true but people buy it hook line and sinker. People really are that dumb and we see evidence of this a hundred times a day. The human species needs that crap imo, we are just broken.
The absence of a tradition of hate and violence can go a long way to make someone less of a crazy jerk.
Yea, but we're talking specifically about apologetics right? I wouldn't be surprised if students of apologetics had a greater likely-hood of leaving their religion than the average Sunday worshipper...it really does put people in situations of sever cognitive dissonance. On the other hand, for the same reason, it probably militarizes belief.
I dunno. I doubt there is any empirical data out there about it...the people best able to collect that data probably wouldn't want to know.
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On your greater point, I think there is statistical evidence that western cultures are turning away from religion, or at least some parts. If you took American and Western Europe sans immigration I think the numbers would be very telling.
Certainly religion has liberalized, which is a step in the right direction. Not sure if I'm hopeful in the long run though, especially with fundamentalist Islam...it depends on whether or not those cultures assimilate.
Either way, I doubt it will change *that* much in our lifetimes, either way. But I bet it is far easier to be an atheist in America now than it was 100 years ago.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
A point I will be gleefully wrong about should that be the case.
Hiya Marcus...
It was my understanding that if Atheism were a religion, that it would be the fastest growing in America... But perhaPS my source was uncredible... I have certainly been wrong about things I was more sure of than this.
But as far as the "doing more good than harm" thing... I didn't mean to imply that "Every"... or even "Most" Fundies turn more people away than they convert... I was simply asking if anyone else has ever experienced instances where this dynamic occurs... and I used Kirk Cameron as an example, because IMHO... Atheism couldn't have a better spokesperson than this delusional dullard....
I would imagine that geography has a lot to do with it... Here in NY/NJ... I dont experience persecution for being either an Atheist, or because my wife and I are swingers... But I know that elsewhere, people do experience that.
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
Rick,
Look for Bryan vs. Scopes trial. What you say was demonstrated to be true many years ago. However, as El Rashbo said (if I'm not mistaken), "stupid people gathering in large groups are dangerous". This means, that maybe much harder to dechristianize stupid people. At least not by using other stupid people.
100%
Your reference point would be Tennessee vs. Scopes, or the Scopes Monkey trial I believe. William Jennings Bryant andClarence Darrow were the opposing lawyers. The movie " Inheirate the Wind" is based on all the fun.
Jim
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
Reasonable clarification.
I've never seen it but I'd be surprised if it didn't happen at least on occassion. However, it seems to me that when surrounded by our peers - if they are all nodding, odds are we are going to do the same.