Yet another blasphemer
Offline Good time of the day you are reading this,
My name is Harmen Prins, a Dutch one. A couple of months ago I told my parents I didn't believe for a couple of years (actually my sister forced me to tell it, or lie to my parents), but I hadn't dared telling anyone because I thought I'd be like, hated or something. Anyway, now they told pretty much everybody I know, and a lot of people started to talk to me about it, and I had to arm myself with knowledge.
My first doubts weren't really rational or anything, I just had a feeling something was wrong. So initially my unbelief was based on a belief, which turned out to be right, when I combined them with facts.
I have a lot of discussion with my mother, but they don't really go well, because I give like a hundred objections to why the Bible is fake, and then she does this God of the Gaps thing, and doesn't understand she rationalizing it. She also told my school, and luckily I am allowed to make some sort of a club for agnostics and atheists.
There's quite a lot I still want to tell you, but I think my post would become to long, I think I can tell you guys those things another time 
Yours sincerely,
Harmen
P.S. I deny the holy spirit
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Greetings, denizen of the low countries. Welcome to the forum. Have fun and stuff.
Let us know how the club works out.
I would also like to hear how your atheist club is coming along. I am in Canada myself, near Toronto. Don't be afraid of long posts meny here do that a lot.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
Indeed, as Jeffrick says, feel free to tell us your thoughts, your journey. I think providing a place for people to do that is a very important function of this forum.
We have more than enough Theists posting long and tedious rants and lists of 'reasons' why we are deluded, going to hell, whatever.
It is always a great relief to hear from someone new who can identify with us, rather than abuse and condemn us.
Welcome, from the other side of the world, Brisbane, in Australia.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
That describes the years of my journey from religion to just general new-age god belief to Atheism very nicely.
It was so wonderful to find out that scientific facts and good old logic refuted all of the things that I could not accept when my faith turned to total doubt.
I think you'll enjoy it on here.
As far as information goes, this site has TONS. You'll never have to worry about debating any nonsensical Theists semantic rubbish again.
Welcome aboard.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Well, since you are so curious I'll share what I have so far:
First, I found another class mate of mine, who is also an atheist (I don't know how I knew he was an atheist, really, it must have been some spiritual connection or something). He told his parents as well. We talked with our mentor about it, and she asked what we wanted to do with our club. We said we wanted to be some sort of a haven for people who doubt faith, and that, at least, people wouldn't just act as if everybody was 100% certain, but would discuss their doubts. She (my mentor) agreed that people shouldn't assume everybody was 100% certain, when discussing religion in class.
Then I went to discuss with other class mates, and I found two that called themselves agnostics (I didn't tell them that isn't a separate group from atheists and theists, that would only annoy them). Now we are free from school for christmas, so I don't see most of them until next Monday.
Besides my atheist club I am also fighting my biology teacher who used most of the creationist fallacies to tell us that evolution failed. I didn't know he was lying to us, at the time. He gave me a 5/10 in stead of my usual 7/10 for the test on evolution because he said he didn't understand most of my reasoning (I tried to explain the 2nd law of thermodynamics fallacy, which he ignored, then he gave me no points because I hadn't told him why it debunks evolution). After some debate he eventually said that he had a different view because he had a different background (namely religion) from me (namely naturalism) and thus interpreted the evidence differently.
He also used the arsenic bacteria as a reason why science sucks, because it changes all the time. When he said that, I didn't know it actually meant the chances of aliens (which he believes don't exist) existing were higher, in stead of evolution being wrong or anything.
.....You saying there are biology teachers peddling creationism..in Holland ?
Christ on a bike, I'm depressed now.
Your biology teacher should be reported to the school board, because that person is not teaching biology. Is there an adult atheist group in your town? Tell them, they would jump all over the teacher and the school board.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
I just read some text on the history of Dutch schooling. In 1801 the first law told schools not to teach religion, but then in 1848 they allowed any school to teach whatever they wanted. It was the first victory for religion in what was called the schoolstrijd (school struggle). It ended with special schools (that is, where they teach religion) getting as much money as normal schools (where they omit superstition).
My god, I never knew this had happened. We have to do something about this 0.0
Link to the english wiki on special schools
You sound young. If you are still living at home, do not make a big deal out of it, only address it if they seem open to it. Stay in school, stay out of trouble, get the best grades you can, and when you leave home, you wont have to worry about anyone holding your atheism over your head. Your parents love you regardless, or I would hope they do regardless.
BUT, that's not it. Being an atheist requires deep deep deep thought and education.
If you are not aware of the following I'd research these terms, and read the following books.
TERMS
1. Infinite regress-the problem with starting with complexity
2. Occham's Razor- Out of many postulated claims to answer a problem, the one with the least baggage is the most likely answer.
EXAMPLES:
When a car wont start, the mechanic DOES NOT, tear apart the entire engine as a starting point. He'll check the battery cable, then the battery, then move up to the next least complicated.
OR
Out of these two given claims which makes more sense and is most likely to be true?
(1.) God/s are real?
or
(2.) People make them up and falsely believe them to be fact?
THOSE are examples of Ocham's Razor.
3. Fallacy of Pascal's wager- It is the problem with "better believe to be safe, than sorry" . BUT what if you have picked the wrong god, or that there is no god at all? To make that type of bet, you would have to bet on every god being true. Which nobody does in reality.
4.Not really a term, but my personal take on the concept of a "G" or "g" god or deity or "entity" or "spirit".
Thoughts require a material process to manifest. Just like running is not a thing, but require legs to do.
I have never seen any credible evidence of an invisible brain, with no brain, no cerebellum, no location, that has magical super powers out to save a "chosen people". Not by any name.
BOOKS TO READ,
1. The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins
2. God The Failed Hypotheses, Victor Stinger
3. God Is Not Great, Christopher Hitchens
4. 1984, George Orwell, Not about atheism, but the dangers of fascism
5. Infidel, Ayaan Hersi Ali- about her escape from Islam
6. Letter to a Christian Nation, Sam Harris
7. 2000 Years of Disbelief, James Haught- A book of quotes from famous historical people from ancient history to more modern times. Not all of them are atheists, but most certainly valued questioning and valued human dignity.
Thomas Jefferson's quotes are in that book. He was a deist, not an atheist.
Celebrity Atheists is a good website to check out more modern atheists not mentioned in the book above.
Other websites for atheists to check out
www.infidelguy.com
www.atheistforums.com
www.freethinkingteens.com
Thats just for starters.
Don't be an atheist to be a "rebel". It is about reason and healthy skepticism and a high regard for scientific method. It isn't about being different or being a "bad boy". It is merely a label that describes your position on the existence of a god, nothing more.
And whatever disagreements you have with your parents, don't think you need to battle them, you'll be old enough one day that you can be on your own. Until then, get along with them the best you can and love them as much as they love you, even if they don't understand.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Teaching religion and trying to squeeze it into biology are two different things. I go to a catholic school (in belgium) , which I guess would qualify as a "special school", but if anyone in our biology class would bring up creationism, literally everyone would be laughing their ass right off, including the teacher.
Special school or not, your bio guy is way, way out of line.
I know quite a lot already about the evolution versus design war. So I already know about Occam's Razor, but I have never heard the term infinite regress (or is that the Who made God? question? I'll look it up).
I am also acquainted with the fallacies in Pascal's Wager.
I just ordered The God Delusion two days ago, along with one other book on religion.
Rebelling is definitely not my intention: I have been doubting religion for three or four years (since I was about 14). At first I didn't feel God's existence, so I became a deist, because I couldn't explain the beginning of the world, and because I was used to assume God. I didn't even dare tell anyone I doubted (except a few very trusted people), so I doubt I was being rebellious.
I'll see if I can get more information on this, and try contacting someone who knows more than I do about schooling in Holland. Thanks for your suggestion.
One more thing I wanted to say: How do you guys get so certain? I mean, I know that a number of creationists are liars and everything, but when I read www.godandscience.org I am already starting to think that they have a couple of good points, and they aren't just basing their view purely on religious bias.
It's easy to come up with "a couple of good points" when there's no biologist around to explain where they went wrong. Is there a thread on their forum where they discuss their arguments with someone qualified to know what they're talking about ?
I'm guessing there isn't.
As for why I'm so certain, well, it's never really been an issue. All the christians and muslims I know think creationism is an american fad, and a silly one at that. The few creationists I've seen turn up here get schooled pretty quickly and decisively. In fact, they're so easily dispatched, I often wonder what the problem is.
And I'm no biologist, but creationism doesn't even make sense as a concept. These people claim their god is beyond human comprehension, but they're 100% sure that evolution isn't the way it works ? It stops making sense right there.
How do we get so certain?
Think about it. Do you really think thoughts come from a non material origin? That would be like a human running with no legs. Much less magical and invisible.
And mixing God and science is nothing but back peddling. It is retro fitting modern science to prop up an invisible friend in the sky. However elaborate the argument, always remember that no deity ever in human history has ever been universally dissected, tested and falsified in a peer reviewed neutral setting.
Again, if you are employing Occam's Razor then your choices are.
1. God/s deities, super natural are real?
OR
2. People make them up and believe in them even though they don't exist?
I forgot who said it, and I am paraphrasing, "Unless you can conduct an experiment on WHATEVER, you have nothing but imagination."
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
The 'God hypothesis' is a total fail, IMHO.
It provides no ultimate explanation for anything, let alone an explanation for why there would be a God in the first place.
If intelligence, as per God, can just exist, then we don't need God to explain it.
Since any plausible explanation involves explaining complex things in terms of simpler things (otherwise we hit the bad infinite regress thing), and we can trace a path through the animal kingdom of progressively increasing complexity, and self-awareness and intelligence, there is no reason whatever to assume a Creator to 'explain' it all.
Simpler things giving rise to more complex things may imply an infinite regress, but a convergent one. Just like the sum of an infinite number of quantities, each half the size of the one before, is merely twice the size of the first one, so not a problem. Even if each is only 1% smaller than the previous, the total is still only 100.
And when you bring in considerations of morality, God is worse than a fail, it brings in a problem, the problem of evil, which simply doesn't arise in a reality without such a critter.
So you have to be batshit crazy to take the idea of God seriously if you actually think it about with an informed mind.
Doesn't mean we understand everything, just that God is a very poorly thought-out, primitive proposition.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Let me add,
Stringing big words together and mixing them with scientific terms and formulas, does not make ANY GOD by any name real.
Even if we take their "formula" at face value, their starting point has not been established.
EXAMPLE:
Snarfwidget=1+1=2 so therefore my snarfwidget exists.
Here is what they are actually doing
Snarfwidget<= elaborate pseudo science<= Therefore my snarfwidget exists.
I have seen Muslims on oither sites post pictures of red gas clouds of galaxies claiming that it proved the verse taliking about the sky's turning "blood red".
I have seen Muslims argue about verses talking about mountains moving proving that the Muhammed knew about plate technonics.
And I spent three days in one post with a Christian years back refuting all his alleged "scientific" evidence.
Saying that the sky is blue, doesn't mean you know why it is blue in scientific terms.
Keep this in mind.
The believer(insert religion here) would not buy their same argument if another person of another religion were using that same argument. They have an agenda in "My god is the one true god(insert god name here).
So even if they bring up things like thermodynamics, it does not nor ever will constitute justifying magic. If thermodynamics were all it took to claim "anything can happen", then Anjolina Jolie is sucking my dick right now.
They do not have "good points", they have vivid and elaborate imaginations and ARE very intelligent in coming up with ways to make it sound good.
But what they dont have, the most important thing, a way to conduct a universal experiment on their alleged god and have the data replicated and falsified by outside independent sources.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
If your from the Netherlands start with your own history. From Spinoza to Ayaan Hirsi Ali the list of Rationalist and Athiests is rich.
Understanding that there is no purpose in the Universe frees us all to find one.
Ah, I see. Thanks for the explanation(s). The problem is, of course, that we can't convince them of the fact that they're just bullshitting.
I will, thanks for the suggestion.