Comebacks from miracle proponents
Posted on: February 1, 2011 - 4:38pm
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Comebacks from miracle proponents
So, you hear very often theists talking about miracles, prophecies, etc.
As an atheist debater, the easiest way to get around this is to point out that no-one ever seems to be miraculously healed when it comes to missing limbs, or diseases/injuries with 100% fatality rates.
Has anyone ever heard any decent, or even almost decent theistic responses to this?
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
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The only response I have ever gotten is an endless list of so called "miracles" and a "well how do you explain x" and if you actually go through the effort to learn about the "miracle" you quickly discover that nothing can be verified. Funny how in the age of technology, none of these miracles happen in front of a camera, at least not without significant editing.
My ex always bought into all of the miracles. Especially any of them that were supposedly witnessed by children. She made the claim "Children wouldn't make that up." Then I had an in depth discussion with my four year old niece about how she saw Santa Clause and Rudolph at her house and asked my ex how she couldn't believe in Santa Clause because my niece would never make that up. It still took several years for her to get over the irrational belief in miracles.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=448956
There is a thread in which Catholics respond. The general idea is that either:
1: These miracles have happened, just not recently
2: God doesn't like to violate natural law
3: Amputees are not actually damaged in a way that God is interested in healing since they can live with their injury and are typically not life shortening
One and two are silly for what I hope are obvious reasons, but three is interesting in that it does deal with the specific case of living amputees who are already healed in an adequate way (Well, adequate for a naked assertion).
So, if you presupposed that God only heals injuries that are life shortening, it would work. However, I'm certain there are plenty of 'verified' miracles of non-life threatening injuries being magicked, so that is out.
In general though I think it misses the point. The argument we make isn't "God doesn't heal amputees, therefore God doesn't exist" rather it is about miracle claims in general, and amputation being an injury that you can't fake easily. The implication isn't that God isn't real, but that 'miracles' aren't miraculous, and to show that by listing things that are not currently possible to heal and show those things are never accomplished via miracle.
In general then, the response to #3 would be to point out that amputation is just an example. If the believer does not feel amputation meets the necessary requirements for God's attention, then we can come up with other problems that are life shortening, even if they might not be so externally dramatic. AIDS, for example, or certain cancers/poisons, etc.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Eh, it's always something that's not a miracle at all and actually happens all the time and is only claimed to be a miracle because people don't understand it (e.g. cancer going into remission, near death experience) or something that never actually never happened or was faked in some way and, for some reason, is never verifiable (e.g. person that just shattered both of their legs the day before getting up and running, baby with high fever on the verge of death suddenly being cured when a guy touched them). If it sounds like the latter, just ask for evidence.
Edit: A very good magician, like the ones that perform in Las Vegas, could make it look like an amputee regained a limb. The Catholic Church should hire one, lol.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
By the way, that forum is hilarious. "Can I have my rosary blessed by more than one priest?" "How can I get exorcism training" "Can I use a picture of Jesus as my avatar?"
I'm always surprised at what 'reasonable' people find reasonable.
I thought of posting, but apparantly there is a temporary ban on atheism and evolution threads, that has been in place since 2009 lol. Looks like it is only enforced when an atheist starts a thread though.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/criss_angel.htm
Everyone knows that Criss Angel is the Antichrist. And all those other "illusionists" in Vegas are his minions.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
ROFL, I was just reading that thread you linked to, I love this one.
See, it is the amputees fault. Stupid amputees don't ask to grow their leg back. And apparently this genius has never heard of prosthetic limbs. Stupid atheist doctors thinking they can take gods place and replace limbs. Obviously, it is much cheaper to simply ask god.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Reading that thread........I wonder if I should go over to get myself banned. Maybe one confused person who's starting to have doubts about their religion will read my post before it gets deleted.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
I don't know about all amputations but a leg amputation can increase your odds of dying from cardiovascular diseases.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Lol, I already joined. I see Ktulu joined too, we have back to back posts in the introduction thread
I'm going to try and play nice though, and not debate too much. Honestly, there are some level headed posters there and I might be able to use them as a resource for what Catholics think. It looks like I'd be banned pretty quickly if I started real debate.
Lots of info though, tons of posts. 1.5 million in apologetics.
*Edit: Actually, I just sent a PM to a kid who was questioning God, saying he should come ask on this site if he wants an alternate viewpoint. I might just do that. At some point I'll be reported and banned, but it might be a more efficient use of effort than just posting some stuff and being IP-blocked.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
He responded by saying he checked it out, but it was too hostile towards theists for him to participate. I can understand that, lol.
Edit: From the thread in question. This stuff breaks my heart. The "answer" is to destroy yourself. "Remember, when you begin to doubt, everything that goes wrong is your fault because you had the nerve to trust your own abilities."
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Recognizing that you wouldn't be happy in heaven while your family burns in hell shows pride? Seems like a strange definition of pride.
Btw, I joined. See you in theistland.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Crap, do you really live in Seattle?
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
There are people who suggest, that these events are products of a technology, employed to create signs. These signs are highly symbolical and appeal to all faiths - and none. They are meant to create an atmosphere of hope and expectancy. Every greater religion expects an arrival of a divine teacher, who will provide further revelation. The idea is, that the Teacher is one person, known to many religions under many names. In this case, he and people similar to him create the signs and miracles to prepare their way.
I have to say, this works best for the world's majority in poorer countries, of which we know very little here. We cynical and educated people form a world minority that is not so much impressed by these signs, so it may be diffcult for us to understand them. However, things like a long sentence glorifying Allah naturally appearing in structure of on multiple eggshells, that impresses Muslims. Catholics are impressed by statue that emanates healing tears, even though its removal from pedestal by curious journalists showed nothing. Buddhists are impressed by a statue weeping true pearls. Hindus are impressed by statues that make milk disappear.
And so these peoples are being prepared on the arrival of the Teacher. I say Teacher and mean educator in the broadest sense, not leader or judge.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
Not quite, actually. 20 minute drive.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Is that something you've heard a more traditional theist say, or just something you're saying they *might* say?
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
The fallacy of a 'miracle' begins at the onset that only mysterious events that have positive final outcomes, are characterized as being 'divine'.
There's also the assertion (false positive) that there is no conceivable natural algorithm possible to account for the final outcome, of said 'miracle'.
They simply reject any and all possible explanations, in order to acheive their confirmation bias (false positive), because their intention was only to assert, not to discover the reality.
This defines their assertion of a god as a miracle as well.
It's an infantile game that they never grow out of.
That about covers the entire topic of 'miracles'.
You can't fix stupid.
The End
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
I went and did it, I joined that there forum of good 'ole catholic folk.
see what happens. I don't usually have any 'miracle' related conversations with anyone in real life so this should prove interesting.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
This guy's style is very like MoM - pretty funny.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
I think I'm going to join as a guy who is questioning his own faith. The way I play it at school and the church
And also because this isn't a site that makes doubters atheists, really... (We might want to make a site like that, that isn't really aggressive).
I'll ask questions as if I was really asking them, and then when they respond ask a question like it's actually a question whereas it's really a debate.
And I'll try to get the doubters to doubt more.
But I won't send them here, because they will see this thread
Traditional theists don't see the big picture. I had an information that even John Paul II expected that Jesus will come for his fold and all these millions of Hindus will have some prophesized guy of their own. They see the world through religion, that divides. They don't see the world through what unites us all in our common trouble. Which is why they are unable to recognize scripturally their prophesized Teacher, because he will not arrive as a religional leader. He can not be so stupid as to assume leadership of one religion and have the other religions plus atheists turn against him. As a teacher (and probably economy and politics expert) he will teach everything that people ask. Humanity is today quite different, more educated, less superstitious, we don't need religional saviors anymore, but teachers.
Currently I had again borrowed the book from Wayne Peterson, Extraordinary Times, Extraordinary Beings. He surely was from a catholic. He says "Blessed Mother" as many times, as only real catholic would. But his book describes no visit in a church for worship during his career.
Btw, if there was last time any doubt about his work in Peace Corps, U. S. Foreign Service then he has photographs in his book that document these stages of his life. Then there's his 17 years as a director of Fulbright Scholarship program, for which I'd like to find some evidence as well.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
... its late and been a long day: perfect opportunity to troll their forum...
will post occasionally - I am the non-English speaking woman there, not able to conceive
[warning, ovaries WILL be involved!]
What Would Jesus Drive? Well, God preferred an old Plymouth, "God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden in a Fury"; Moses was said to ride a motor bike, "the roar of Moses’ Triumph is heard in the hills", while the apostles would carpool in a Honda, "the apostles were in one Accord".
Be careful not to commit any mortal sins.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
I seem to remember a Roman Catholic guy who posted quite a bit on this forum actually being interviewed, I think by Reggie Finlay, the Infidel Guy, being asked about this, and trying to claim there was some miracle which did involve growing back some external part of the body, I think it was something to do with the eye. It was quite a stretch, of course. It might have implied re-growing the cornea, I seem to remember.
If that's their best response...
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
there are those faith healers that lengthen a leg making the healee's legs equal. But its all rotation of the hips. But some are duped.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
I'm so doing this......Done! I joined up and posted un the name "faithIStuff."
Heres' my opener, I'm trying to keep it simple, and talk as though I'm a standard simpleton theist at first. I'm still waiting for my sentence to be approved my the modes and then it will be available for viewing, I'll post the link. We'll see how long I can keep this up.
Hi guys,
My name is Gene, I'm 26, I was raised a Christian, and I have been a Christian all my life. As I grow older, I'm finding it harder and harder to have faith in gods existence and his good intentions. I've prayed humbly to god hundreds if not thousands of times to reveal himself to me, or to atleast make his presence known, the way others have described such feelings and experiences. I turn to the bible, but I have problems with alote of what is said and taught in scripture. I want to have faith, but it is becoming very difficult for me.
Looking for wisdom
Thanks
And Joined myself. I figured that I would keep the bio short and close enough to real that I don't have to worry about the details all that much.
=
Shit, I can't get over some of this stuff!
In a thread about being interrogated by an atheist: "The best thing you can do is to be stubborn."
In another thread the consensus of why religion is declining in Europe seems to be that those louts have it too good, but that will change soon and they'll come flocking to Jesus. Which is fine, until you realize they are salivating for ruin and woe to drive people to the church.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Jeanna Giese has been studied and chronicled for nearly three years as a one-of-a-kind case:
She survived rabies without vaccination a 100% fatality rate event.
Even though doctors put her in a coma and gave her a bunch of drugs it has been tried on 10 people worldwide with no success.
Her record still stands, that I am aware of.
Wait....doctors put her in a coma and pumped her full of an experimental drug, but God gets the praise? Ouch. Anyway:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=jeanna-giese-rabies-survivor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee_protocol
So, in five minutes if research I've found that five people out of 25 have been saved by the same experimental treatment she received. Might be more now, those articles are not current.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Apparently God doesn't care about 20 out of 25 people.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Bada Bing.
Leave it to an atheist for 5 minutes, to debunk what could easily have eternally remained a 'miracle' to theists.
Another theist pwned.
When will they ever learn?
Oh, ya. That's right. I forgot.
Learning is not their strong suit. That's why all the repetition.
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
This is an incredibly important point. It can't be emphasized enough. Skepticism needs to happen even when we're the ones pushing a theory. Our own biases are the things we should be the most skeptical about. Since we are human and we fail, that is why we use science so other people can attempt to attack our own theories to help us figure out if they are viable.
This isn't even a theism issue, plenty of atheists are just as bad at this. The difference is theism is *built on* this type of thinking and part of that is making sure we're aware of our own mental traps. As Red pointed out, if you want a miracle you can find one easily, just as long as you aren't willing to look past the surface.
Hell, there are tons of non-theism issues I *wish* were true. The latest berry that fixes all your problems, some new weight loss thing that will change your life, get rich quick schemes, some engineering 'breakthrough' that is going to make energy free, ghosts, aliens...those are all things I *wish* were true. I'd love it if they were. But when wishes and evidence clash, I choose evidence.
This kind of crap is why we have to be teaching kids how to think, not what to think. This comes up again and again, and it is just as true now.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
The initial statements was "no-one ever seems to be miraculously healed when it comes to missing limbs, or diseases/injuries with 100% fatality rates"
I did mention the fact that medication was used but the Milwaukee protocol to differing degrees has been used a dozen times,
but Giese is the sole survivor. Exactly why she lived—and everyone else died ??? It is simply the anomaly that was asked for.
How to think, not what to think is found in type of responces given to the facts. Medicine and science can not take the credit because they can not repoduce the study, God can not be given the credit because no physical presence of God was seen. No side can claim responsability.
How you respond to what happened answers the statement of how you think and not how to think
I just found two articles that said the treatment has been used at least 25 times, and out of those 5 have survived. Those were the links I posted.
This is an experimental therapy that has saved multiple lives. It is something actively being researched. The girl, "Giese" was the first subject of the treatment who survived, but there have been others since. The treatment has a low success rate. It was not a miracle.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Here is a more technical article from the CDC. Interesting reading, the girl was very close to dying. They speculate that the bat might have also had a non-standard variant of the rabies virus, but were not able to confirm because the body of the bat was not recoverable.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5350a1.htm
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Lol, if 5 people survived, then it's no longer a 100% fatality rate, is it?
God of the Gaps fail.
Even if it was only one person, the fact that they did an experimental treatment on her completely demolishes any supernatural causality claim, not to mention that mentioning God in a single medical case at all utterly fails Occam's Razor.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
CDC December 24, 2004
"case is unique because the patient received no rabies prophylaxis either before or after illness onset. Historically, the mortality rate among previously unvaccinated rabies patients has been 100% (2).The five previous patients who survived were either previously vaccinated (3) or received some form of PEP before the onset of illness (4--7).
However, the particular benefits of the regimen received by this patient remain to be determined."
I do not take probably, maybe and might as truths. Journal of NeuroVirology told physicians to exercise "caution" in using the treatment, because it is too expensive and lacks " a clear scientific rationale."
If you do not want to accept the girl's life as an anomaly than don’t, complain to CDC for there inability to properly tag the studiy.
Dude, they induced a coma and pumped her full of vaccine, this was in 2004. They did the same thing with minor variations 25 times in the next six years and it saved five other people...I'm seriously at a loss here, are you just ignoring what I'm saying?
This is like saying the first person saved from Polio using penicillin was a miracle, because before that there was no cure.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
So finding an even partially successful treatment for what has up to that time been 100% fatal proves divine intervention???
Maybe the idea for the new treatment technique was inserted in someone's brain by God? Why did he wait till now? Why did he create the problem in the first place?
Every time someone finds a way to do something for the first time means God helped them do it??
Have you no concept of progress, more things becoming possible to us as more things are discovered, of ideas feeding of other ideas?
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Demonstrating an anomaly does not help your case in the slightest. The first treatment of any disease that ever existed was an "anomaly."
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Actually he is right, it was God's fault. Really, how many people do you know don't get vaccinated, get bit by a bat and don't go to the doctor immediately. The only person stupid enough to do all of that would have to be someone who thought praying to god would fix everything. So when the girl practically dies and doctors are forced to try an experimental treatment as a last ditch effort and it works. Yet still the theist gives credit to god rather than the brilliant doctors who came up with the idea. If anything it was faith in god that nearly killed this poor girl.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
And sister Mary Catherine welcomer has assigned (or as she put it "recomended" ) that I check out a series of over 600 hours of recorded RCIA conversations. I am supposed to just listen to the stuff that interests me and see where I go from there.
Somehow, I think that I am not going to even try that.
=
Truly, Satan has struck another blow.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
That is true, but even if this was some anomaly, it doesn't matter for another reason.
I don't know if anyone has had any Medical/Biological training, but our bodies are not identical to each other.
Read the label of any drug or better yet, read the full package insert (which actually details the clinical trials that determine the drug's effectiveness), not everyone responds to a drug the same way (side effects) and not only that, but some people have no response at all. In science class you have pretty drawings and cartoons, but in reality, our bodies driven by the chaotic world of inter/intramolecular forces.
Putting 'X' into the human body can have any number of results from nothing, to a cure, to death and anything inbetween.
I really hope you have the moral integrity to acknowledge when you are incorrect. Try it out, it doesn't hurt.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
"Miracles by the very definition are meaningless. Only what can happen, does happen" - Dr. Manhattan
www.RichWoodsBlog.com
This definition is meaningless. Does circular logic say anything to Dr. Manhattan?
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
This is getting at the definition of a miracle as something that is impossible. For example, if a person starts floating, aha it's a miracle! But since it is happening, it's not impossible and therefore not a miracle.
How would you define a miracle Luminon?
OK Luminon, that was a cultural mistake. You do not know Dr. Manhattan. Let me clue you in.
Dr Manhattan is a comic book superhero.
He used to be a regular human and a nuclear scientist. At some point, he accidentally got locked into a room where an experiment was happening. His atoms were scattered to the universe. However, his awareness remained.
A few weeks later, he managed to rebuild his body from energy fields. Now he is a being with all of his memories but he is also omnipotent. Kind of a hard role to fill.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If he wants to have a talk with you on Mars, the you will find yourself on Mars. You do not have to worry about the lethal atmosphere. It is fine for you for the time being. If you try to walk away from him, then you may walk past the bubble of safe space that he provided. The you are fucked until he moves the bubble to where you are.
=
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.