Intention of the gospel writers
Offline I would to know what the intentions of the writers of the gospels and epistles were if this stuff wasnt real than why is it written the way it is.
I dont beileve its true but i cant imagine how people could make this stuff up. Are the books we have know the way they were always written and why are they written the way they are like when jesus does miracles and the priests say he is a devil. Obviously it didnt happen so what was the stories purpose.
Also is the story of lazarus a complete fabrication it has to be people dont come back from the dead so who made it up and when.
Im also suspcious of pauls vision that has to be a fabrication to because if he hated christians then why would he have a visoin of jesus obvioulsy he didnt know what he looked like was paul really making this all up with some self serving purpose in mind.
This stuff really frustrates me because i want to know how these stuff can be made up it doesnt happen today anymore.
Ive also read The Evolutionof god and find it really interested but hard to follow.
Basically I want to know what it looked like say when someone was writting the book of exodus for example how could someone write this if it didnt happen and what was the intention.
Also i realize my writing struture is horrible.
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Why not just point out that the the trininty is not in the old testament. That stuff would be foreign to moses,david etc.
Been there, done that.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
The idea that God can change his nature, or has reason to mask his nature then reveal himself to humans in a different way with Jesus, is one of the things that really doesn't make sense to me.
The typical argument is, "Well, you have to understand that God was working with the culture of the time..." Bullshit. He's God, he can do whatever the hell he wants to. If he came down from the mountain and started smiting people who didn't turn the other cheek they would have figured it out pretty darned quick. There is zero theistic reason why God couldn't introduce Jesus the second Eve took a bite of the apple.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
he had to wait until there was a sufficient population to spread exponentially so that they could pass the meme. I sorta mixed William Lane Craig with Dawkins to get that answer. If god is a meme them he can only reveal himself as a meme (or infect others as a meme?).
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
Christians accept both as the SAME God because it is the SAME God not two God's as you propose. The use of El Elyon for God's name indicated that Melchizedek, who used this title 2 times (Gen. 14:18-19) worshiped, served, and represented no Canaanite deity, but the same God whom Abram also called Yahweh El Elyon (v.22) This is confirmed by the added description "Possesor of heaven and earth," being used both by Abram and Melchizedek (vv. 19,22)
The scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit is a divine person, eternal, underived, possessing all the attributes of personality and deity, including intellect, emotions, will, eternality, omnipresence, omniscience, omnipotence, and truthfulness. In all the divine attributes He is coequal and cosubstantial with the Father and the Son just as the Son is coequal and cosubstantial with the Father and the Holy spirit etc. The trinity is three distinct persons who are coequal and are ONE God. There is no scriptural support for your claims of polytheism. My references are from the MacArthur Study Bible.
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
El and Yahweh were merged around the 8th-6th century BCE. Prior to that Yahweh was considered a lesser god to El in the Canaanite pantheon.
http://lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2008/10/28/excerpt-from-yahweh-and-the-gods-and-goddesses-of-canaan-by-john-day/
Christians can't seem to agree on this.
As for the rest, Church tradition may teach a triune god but it's not in Scripture - otherwise you'd have brought some.
Commentary from a study bible does not equal scripture.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Here are some OT verses. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/triunity.html
Here are some NT verses
•Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"
•1 Cor. 12:4-6, "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons."
•2 Cor. 13:14, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."
•Eph. 4:4-7, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift."
•1 Pet. 1:2, "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure."
•Jude 20-21, "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
I can only see one verse that actually helps you, Lee.
Wouldn't the Jews be the people who know what their own book says rather than Christians who have an agenda? It's like if I tell you I thought the movie Kick-Ass was fantastic (it is, by the way) and you tell me that I hated it. Wouldn't I know what I thought better than you?
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Arent some versus added at different times to help this cause?
You gave a link to a Mormon website? The Mormons are a cult they aren't Christians so their doctrine is trash.
It's all throughout scripture lol! Commentary from a study bible does not equal scripture? No duh! Did I say it was Jc?
It's there for a reason!
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
They need to make the site where you can select the page of a topic from the topic selection or at least the top of the page.
Do you believe everything you read?
Maybe the internet is not the place for you, then....
Seriously, why would anyone presume that any one person who wrote anything down was even sane, much less telling the truth?
People have been trying to come up with all sorts of methods of controlling people, since antiquity.
Putting the fear of a god into them, is old hat.
It was around way before 0 B.C.
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
Obviously Mt 28:19 which I expected but how would you get trinity from that or the gospel of Matthew as a whole? You could see it being used much later as a proof text... the only one that has all the right words together. The early disciples baptized simply in the name of Jesus Christ whereupon the wet person received the holy spirit. This is a late and Jewish focused gospel so it is understandable that God the father is first then the son and then holy spirit which is received by the baptism initiation.
This verse is really a defeater:
2Cor13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
So in that verse we have "God" "Christ" and the "holy Spirit". Only one being in the verse is "God" and it's the father alone not like the later trinitarian formulas...in the name of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. I guess what i was really looking for was some teaching about the trinity in scripture but you won't find it Lee or else give us some of that there learnin'
Oh by the way:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/triunity.html
is trash. Elohim is plural but with singular pronouns referring to it. In such cases some interpete it to be a majestic plural as when the king say We have made a decision referring to himself.
The Mormon stuff was much better:
El and Yahweh were merged around the 8th-6th century BCE. Prior to that Yahweh was considered a lesser god to El in the Canaanite pantheon.
http://lehislibrary.wordpress.com/2008/10/28/excerpt-from-yahweh-and-the-gods-and-goddesses-of-canaan-by-john-day/
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
As has been said (but bears repeating) the Matthew verse helps my cause, Lee. Same with one of the Corinthians verse you cited . They invoke all three gods separately. That wouldn't need to happen if they were united, would it? Why ask for three separate blessings?
The one I meant was 1 Cor. 12 where some monotheism accidentally slipped in. The only way that Matthew is a Jewish focused gospel is in its anti-Semitism. But that is expected if the author is a Greek convert to Pauline Christianity.
I linked to a Mormon site - that does not make the author of the book being cited a Mormon. Do you have a dispute with his scholarship on the Old Testament? Or are you happy with your dodge? Actually Lee, Mormons worship Jesus as a God just as you do - is your doctrine trash as well?
Quoting you by accident TG - I meant to hit "reply"
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
No problem:
John 10 is interesting
31 The Jews again brought stones to throw at him; 32 And seeing this, Jesus said: “I have done before your eyes many good actions, inspired by the Father; for which of them would you stone me?” 33 “It is not for any good action that we would stone you,” answered the Jews, “but for blasphemy; and because you, who are only a man, make yourself out to be God.”
34 “Are there not,” replied Jesus, “these words in your law: ‘I said “Ye are gods”‘? 35 If those to whom God’s word were addressed were said to be ‘gods’—and scripture cannot be set aside—36 Do you say of one whom the Father has consecrated and sent as his messenger to the world: ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said ‘I am the Son of God’?”
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
Thats good but I was thinking more along the lines of not knowing how they were composed or understanding evoultion. What would be a good contradiction from the book that would be irrefutable and not just a number type o?
The part in genesis where it says "Let us make man in our image" what is the understanding of this, its not the holy trinity because the concept had not been invented and god wouldnt be talking to himself. What proior beliefs does this come from?
Also doesnt the part where it says the wages of sin is death doesnt that show that hell wasnt always apart of the theology doesnt that mean that anytime jesus meantioned it was written after that part. Its so confusing that they say the epistles where written after the gospels if this were true wouldnt the goes[els be more consistent with the epistles, the only thing that makes since to me is they were written seperate from each other but this doesnt make since either?
See post 134 and 147
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
Why do you say "they" started calling it trinatarism. The people of the old testament died out way before jesus and these ideas would be against there agenda and beliefs. I am not saying you dont know that but I think if atheists pointed this out to christians more it would make them think.
Also when you use the quote function does it notify the person you quoted cause I know some forums do?
Sorry - I should have used "the early church fathers" instead of "they". Thanks for that.
I don't know on the other question - maybe one has to be subscribed to that thread to get notification.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
The idea of trinity was not found in the original manuscripts of the New Testament. The pronouns that refer to the holy spirit were neuter meaning it not HE. By the fourth century copies of the Greek started showing some of the pronouns changes to the masculine, He. Even in the gospel of John the Paraclete (Advocate) is referred to by neuter pronouns and is itself a neuter noun . Jesus in early Christology was presented as adopted like the earliest gospel of mark. He is baptised by John the Baptist for the remission of sin and the holy spirit comes down into (Greek pronoun eis) him. Even Paul reflects in places an adoptionistic concept as when he says jesus was appointed as Christ by the resurrection. The gospel of John uses typical Logos philosophy (Stoic or Helenistic Jewish ) to have the Christ as the first born of creation the tool or agency through which god creates (i.e word, reason) It is the gospel of John's language that starts the idea that jesus was a god or God. It took until the 4th century to iron all of the various conflicting theology and christology out at the Council of Nicaea. So you see a gradual evolutionary elevating of a teacher to God by his followers. If jesus existed he would be pissed about it and his daddy too.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
Your right, the term Trinity is never specifically used nor the doctrine explicitly explained in Scripture, it is nevertheless implicitly stated. The doctrine of the triunity was developed by the church council to defend against heresy.
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
At last you admit it - it was never in the Bible and was made up by the Church. Never mind the fact that the "heretics" they were fighting were pulling their evidence from the Bible as well.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Orthodoxy is a group who have more weapons or power so they can killed you. Heretic probably the person with the correct understanding killed by a consensus.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
In fact Arianism was more accurate in its interpretation of scripture than the version of trinitarian that won out. In Church politics truth is not the factor if it is a minority (as it usually is ) what is correct is by majority and power.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
Thanks Jc for staying true to form. Distorting the truth!
For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:20
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
Distorting the truth by telling it? That's a neat trick.
This from the one who says that trinitarianism is throughout the Bible when it is not to be found (implicitly or explicitly)?
Which lie are you going to stick to, Lee? I really wish you'd quit confirming my belief that Christianity is a dishonest religion.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
Oh my...
Not evidence that the scriptures show clear examples of the game of 'telephone'?
That would be bad...
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
Trying not to read into your comment...bad as in that some bad-ass guitar playing or bad as in that sucks the big one? In trying to reconstruct the historical Rednef's ipsissima verba one should always start with the facetious hermeneutic. There are indications that his followers took an undue reverence to some of his best lines and missed the depth if not mystical import of his pronouncements.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
It all depnds on what the priests of redneF need at the time.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
Yes, that's exactly what I meant.
By jove, you've got it!
Hey, I'm jess tryin' to keep it real, and that my 'meanin' has feelin'.
I is feelin' you is seeing my bad, and rollin' with dat.
You is baaaaad yo self, mutha.
Yo, yo, yo!
Spread the word, Daddy O!
Tell it like it is!
Gimme some skin, Brothu!
You da man! Dog!
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
Not sure.
Lord redneF, do we take the groupies seriously or not?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
They are the yang, to our yin.
Like PB & J.
It works.
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
Must resist.............
Oh, the squishy sounds of love.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Hey, since the theist left we have to make up something.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Can someone tell me what was giong on in history when the bible was being written like japan, china, russia, america, ireland etc.
Do we have absolute proof that the creation in genesis contradicts the historical record. I am still trying to get over my simplistic way of viewing the world and thinking we all came from the middle east also are my descedents from the middle east or someone where else, I far back as I can tell my moms side is french on her moms side and dads side is irish and my dads mom sides is french, so giong from there?
Google is your friend.
YouTube is your friend.
Wikipedia is also your friend.
There's volumes of stuff on ancient civilizations, and prehistoric man.
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
i am not very good at compiling info so it would be nice if someone could simplify it.
Well, the Babylonians were brewing beer during the time that some Christians claim the universe was being created. (about 6k years ago).
No one seemed to have told the Egyptians about the global flood that was happening while they were busy building the Pyramids.
Just some examples ex tempore
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
How bout the fact that plants and herbs were made before the sun on the third day according to Genesis? The sun was supposedly created on the 4th day. Isn't that historical proof enough?
11
Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so.
12
The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
13
And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.
14
And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years,
15
and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so.
16
God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
17
God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth,
18
to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
19
And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day
Really this thread is about the Gospel writers though.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
have you ever encountered a christian that believes the flood happened millions of years ago. There reasoning is that the bible doesnt say how long the time was between noah and the first historical biblical fugure.
No but I do know some that claim it wasn't global.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
thats really funny but i can see a christian saying magic. Maybe if I understood when we first learned that plants needed sunlight it would show me that they didnt understand this at the time.
I should have called this thread intention of the bible writers.
How would you show this persons poor reasoning?
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism