Question for ex-theists
Posted on: February 15, 2011 - 1:40pm
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Question for ex-theists
So, I was giving a wall-o-text life story and I had a thought.
As a kid I believed in and feared my Protestant god, but I can't remember ever feeling much positive emotion towards him. In the other thread I put it as, "I feared God, but I didn't love Him."
How common is this? I was certainly told that I should love God, and told how wonderful Jesus was, etc. but I don't remember feeling it.
I suppose I could just be re-writing my memory of the 'relationship' I had when I was a kid, but I don't think I am...I don't have any reason to do such a thing.
Thoughts?
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
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I am perfectly capable of self-delusion. And therefore, to my best recollection, when I was trying to believe, I was also trying to "love" Jesus and god. It was a struggle.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Funny when I think back on my days of believing I wonder was I really a theist? I mean I read what people here describe as there experiences and how seriously they took it all. I mean I don't remember ever thinking about heaven or hell at all really or how my actions might effect where I would go. I don't remember any of it scaring me or concerning m at all. Frankly I am shocked at how seriously some of you seemed to of taken it all. Sure I "believed" in god, so yeah I guess I was a theist but none of it seemed important at all really.
I cannot say I ever remember loving god either, I more remember god as just like a permanant fixture in a room, you really don't notice it or think about it much. It is just there, that is how I would describe my theist days.
I really don't know how common it is but among atheists I guess you will get quiet a lot of people saying they didnt feel gods love.
Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
No animal shall wear clothes.
No animal shall sleep in a bed.
No animal shall drink alcohol.
No animal shall kill any other animal.
All animals are equal.
I do not think that I ever felt genuine 'love" for god.
I remember thanking him profusely every time a disaster and near miss was averted. I remember thanking him when good things were happening.
But those thankful prayers were always offered as though I were the subservient, worthless, undeserving sinner that had been granted the small gift of grace.
If I had to describe it in words today. I would say it would be like a terrified, abused spouse profusely thanking an abuser for not beating them.
I would give it the same equal feeling that a picked on kid would feel if he was afraid the bullies were going to beat him up in the playground and found out that they were going to let him go.
But I certainly would not equivocate that to love.
My god was always punishing me for my unworthiness and always blessing me when I didn't deserve it. For this, I was supposed to thank him.
To give you one idea of how the people in my parish felt. I have a very distinct memory of a priest that used to end every homily (sermon) with, " Be thankful that we do not get what we deserve in this life and that god is merciful,". I remember the whole congregation always nodding ferverently at that assertion. At the time, it never occurred to me to ask why we were so undeserving of god anyway.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
I can't remember a time that I didn't believe when I was a child. As an adult I find that very difficult to process. It took years to break free of the mold: somewhere along the line my "why"s led to asking the correct questions - I caused my parents great distress when these questions were about Jesus and the Bible, plus of course Ellen G White.
I will let the subject link speak for itself: the SDA church admits that they start the process as early as possible in a child's life. Have a look at the way its done - beautiful pictures for the kids and a complete plan of action from the Sabbath School teacher and parents. Remember that the target audience for these teachings/activities is age 0-2
http://www.gracelink.net/article.php?id=2
What Would Jesus Drive? Well, God preferred an old Plymouth, "God drove Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden in a Fury"; Moses was said to ride a motor bike, "the roar of Moses’ Triumph is heard in the hills", while the apostles would carpool in a Honda, "the apostles were in one Accord".
My relationship with God as a kid was a one way street. I was told that'd he'd hear my prayers and act on them. So that's all I did. I never felt a special connection, and didn't feel any more spiritual when I was having those one way conversations. I was raised believing that God was forgiving and merciful, so I never feared him. I was more fearful of doing things that were wrong according to the Bible. I never read the OT growing up, and the terrible things God did were never mentioned either (obviously).
I know from experience that my Dad and brother are god-fearing. They've told me they're worried about me and want me to go to heaven, but fear that my beliefs will land me in a lake of fire. So I think that many religious people do have a love and a fear for God... I just don't think the majority of them have rationalized it.
More common than you might realize.
It's very prevalent for humans to simultaneously adhere to 2 or more completely incompatible ideas.
It's simply under the category of cognitive dissonance.
One of the most fascinating areas of the study of the cognitive behaviour of humans, is what's known as 'Stockholm Syndrome'.
Human feelings towards a god, could easily be described as the epitome of Stockholm Syndrome.
If you haven't already read extensively about it, I think it would certainly help you in towards a deeper self actualization.
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
That isn't really what I was getting at, to be honest. If I loved God and feared him at the same time, then that would probably be more appropriate.
I'm more curious about how other ex-theists felt at an emotional level, to see if there is any correlation.
I know quite a few ex-theists who feared God, but I'm not sure I know anyone who had that crazy, blank-eyed adoration I've seen in so many people who have been, 'saved'. I certainly never felt that way. I'm curious as to whether feeling that personal affection towards the deity at some point makes you less likely to de-convert.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
The more I read stuff like this the more I agree with Dawkins rightful condemnation of Plato and his absurd idea of "If you just question you will find perfection".
All of us, including me believed in a god because the idea of being protected is appealing. The reality of our finite existence and our unimportance in the universe or it's history is not comforting.
Even as weird as quantum mechanics gets, there is no way it supports myths of the past. Otherwise if we all lean towards "it could happen" merely because we don't have all the answers, then right now in a parallel universe Angolina Jolie is giving me a blow job right now.
It horrifies me more to contemplate a "script writer" who set all of our species up on a horrible home just so we could kiss it's ass. Whatever we don't know about the universe, and there certainly is much, to postulate a god would be to cheapen the awesome reality to comic book status.
In a "perfect world" the Redskins wouldn't suck and Angolina Jolie would.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I definitely had the luuuurve of god going when I was a kid, reading the bible under the blankets by torchlight at boarding school (yeah, I know). It was a flat-out human emotion based on how I felt about my own father but amplified. Not surprisingly, I read the Psalms a lot. At one point when much younger - perhaps 8 or 9 - I asked my preacher Dad how I knew I loved god (this was the doorway to heaven from hell, remember) and described my fuzzy feelings and he assured me this was as it should be.
Alongside wanting to hold god's hand while crossing the road I was also afraid of god but this fear really only weighed in as I got older and began to doubt. Of course doubt means going to hell so as I backslid my relationship with god became more fraught. Every so often I'd repent of a range of crimes ranging from wanking over Penthouse Forum to drinking beer, smoking dope in my mate's blueprinted SS Torana and craving a new motorbike. I'd then beg god to take me back out of fear, primarily.
As my personal morality developed in my 20s and 30s I ceased to look at god as a teddy bear and thought of him more and more as a monstrous thing. By the time I was 40 (I reached the age of reason later than most) god was a titanic arsehole and everything in the bible a blatent forgery, assertion or myth.
I think it's fair to say my rejection of god tracks my inner growth as a person. God is either good or he is not. He forgives or not. He is merciful or he is not. Just or not. There came a point where I was grown up enough to see that relentlessly contradictory biblical doctrine was schizophrenic at best and by my subjective definition, generally a base and evil attempt by churchmen seize power.
I've since come to hate the concept of god and to dislike the people who embrace it for a complete paucity of character and a total lack of moral courage. There may be no god. There may be no hell. But theists believe there is and they are just fine with that...
When I was young I was told christianity was the hard and winding path overgrown with brambles while the masses took the wide road to gehenna. My father even had little tracts depicting the masses falling off the wide road into the lake of fire. It's clear to me now that godlessness is the far harder path.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Interesting. That is exactly what I was looking for. Probably not much correlation then, I just happened to not have (or not remember anyway) a particularly positive relationship with my deity.
So, AE, would it be fair to say you see your old self with significant contempt? Or do you cut your past self more slack than you give to current believers?
I don't (usually) feel much anger towards most theistic believers, rather I feel sadness and pity, because I feel they are at the mercy of an incorrect meme rather than having a personal character flaw.
I do realize in light of my belief in materialism such emotional distinctions are arbitrary, either way.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
for having been deceived by this bumf as a child. I have to admit to having argued with atheists as an agnostic in my 30s - my arguments were essentially first cause, the anthropic principle and arguments of complexity that I would not accept now. I can recall one such argument and the chap's confusion over his inability to talk a group of agnostics and half baked theists out of our peculiar positions. It's a feeling I am now familiar with.
I do feel anger that I was programmed to self hate and self judge and to fear the universe instead of stretching out to it. We've talked about this before but I get chills over the idea of the true nature of life, the strangeness of it and the rightness of organic materialism. It's a shame we won't be around when a theory of carbon-based life is compiled.
Theists condemn this position as devoid of meaning, of morality, of direction. They talk about the pointlessness of self-organisation based on not yet understood molecular parameters. Philosophers all the way back to Plato decry the atomic material and laud the unknowable immaterial. I cannot understand such reservations over a search for the best knowable physical truth.
P.S. Yeah - if I argued now with my old 25yo self I would cut my former ideas to shreds in the blink of an eye. I'd mock, rend, yowl and stomp with abandon.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
I also don't remember harboring much positive emotion for god in my theist days.
I went to a parochial preschool and elementary school for awhile. And we were taught all the "jesus loves you" songs, but I don't remember it sinking in that much. Then in first grade, during Bible story time, our teacher read the creation story to us, which I had heard many times before, but had always thought was a fairytale. Then, she said that this was actually how the world was created! And I panicked. I knew vaguely about the concept of evolution, and I thought, "this story cannot possibly be true! what about the monkeys?!" But then I remembered that you could go to hell for doubting god, so I quickly tried to put it out of my mind. And that was how much of my childhood went, from a religious standpoint - always having doubts, but trying to cast them out of my head, for fear of going to hell. So no, I don't think there was much love there; it was mostly fear.
I remember feeling relieved when I transferred to public school for the start of third grade, because I wouldn't have to think about the "god stuff" so much anymore. But that ended when I switched to a Christian private school in the 7th grade. At first, I realized I was an atheist, because I didn't believe any of that stuff. But then in 8th grade, I started studying the Bible more, and started worrying about what would happen if I was wrong. (I didn't know about Pascal's Wager back then, of course.) So I became religious again, and then went through confirmation classes in order to become confirmed in the church. Basically, a whole lotta brainwashing was going on. I wanted to love god; but I had a hard time with understanding someone that allowed pain and suffering in the world. Plus, I was now certain that I wanted to go into science, and I was having a hard time fitting god into all of that. So again, I was just fearful of going to hell if I thought about this stuff too much.
Then I became anorexic, and then bulimic. My senior year of high school was simply miserable. I became very depressed. And I would spend hours every day praying, and highlighting melancholy psalms in my Bible, and crying. I absolutely hated God, because he had the power to cure me of my misery, and he did nothing. (Eventually, at the urging of my high school counselor, my parents staged an intervention and forced me into therapy. It took a lot of hard work to turn things around, but it was my hard work - not god's.)
So basically, my relationship with god was characterized by fear and hate. I can only remember a few fleeting instances of feeling love.
And it's funny to think of the personal effort that goes into those momentary feelings of love, too. And the why of the love. You love god because he died despite your personal vileness. Everything about this 'love' is tainted and poisoned by self loathing.
Meantime, loving an undefined concept demands the application of an anthro figurine in the starring role. You can scarcely love the reification of a mental concept after all. The natural thing for a human to do is to apply a template that allows a projection of love, and that's inevitably some sort of personality, a suitable and entirely subjective divine 'person'.
It's such a strained and unlikely business. The more I think about it, the sillier it sounds.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
If I think back about the subject truthfully, I really never did believe in the Anglican God of my parents and grandparents. Anglicanism seems to me more of a culture than a religion. It was more about tradition than belief.
My family background is Irish which would presuppose Catholicism. Not in southern Ontario, Canada. In the mid 19th century Irish immigrants of Catholic origin arrived in the U.S. while the Anglicans would migrate to Canada because of it's association with the crown. Because of this my ancestors were fiercely anti-catholic which again had more to do with allegiance to the British Crown than mere belief in a God.
I can still remember my grandfather complaining about the Fenians. For anyone not familiar the Fenians they were a militant organization of Irish Catholics bent on overtaking Canada from northern U.S. bases. If they were successful the hope was that they could force the British from Ireland as well. In the mid 19th century when my great-great grandparents arrived Fenian raids from Northern New York, Pennsylvania, and Ohio into Upper Canada (Ontario) were common. This, as you can imagine, solidified an us and them mentality not unlike Northern Ireland. Anti-Catholicism and monarchism were as important, if not more, than any certainties of God.
As an aside it's somewhat incongruous that Canada became a country (loosely) in 1867 with an act that bound the mostly British Upper Canada with the predominately French Catholic Lower Canada. To be fair the French had been defeated by the British at Quebec City in the 18th century during the French and Indian war and the populace had agreed to be ruled by the crown ever after. The English assumed their culture would assimilate in the decades to come but as we know now nothing of the sort occurred. If anything the Quebecois culture has only strengthened to the point of attempting through democratic processes to become a separate country.
The point is I live in Kingston Ontario and on any given day I can board no more than two ferries and be in The United States within two hours, less than one if I take the bridge 25 miles away. The proximity of the Fenians and later and more importantly the Americans has had a profound influence on my ancestors chosen religion and the way in which they would practice it. It was always as an alternative, meaning, we weren't Americans or Catholics we were Loyalists.
How does this relate to Mellestad's original question? Well, what I am trying to convey is the depth at which religion is entrenched in my family as a culture as opposed to an actual all or nothing belief. I had expressed my disbelief in a God as young as eleven to my parents without serious repercussions of any kind. Again their worries were sided on the cultural (my grandfather had disowned one of his five daughters who married an Irish Catholic, the shame, reconciled thankfully before he died) rather than religious.
What this allowed me was complete freedom of choice within the confines what we Canadians thought was staunch allegiance to the British Crown. As long as we were loyal Canadians i.e. British subjects our personal beliefs were thankfully off limits. Canadian Prime Ministers are never asked what their religion is, if any, and any reporter who asked such a question would be in such a world of shit that self immolation would be the easy way out.
So to answer your question, Mellestad, no. I never had a fear or love of God. I think I believed in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny longer than I did God and they were much more fun.
Understanding that there is no purpose in the Universe frees us all to find one.
i definitely loved god and never feared him at all. even though i considered myself mainstream baptist, i never could quite talk myself into believing hell existed. that was probably due to the very early (and entirely benign and pressure-free, i assure you) influence of my jehovah's witness grandmother. incidentally, i could never quite talk myself into believing in the trinity either.
i have to say, that love of "god" has never disappeared--it's only my perception of the loved object that constantly evolves. i was very much prone to quiet ecstasies as a theist, and i'm still prone to quiet ecstasies.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Involve a measure of yowling these days. When younger I did have moments of delight when sailing, riding a motorcycle, being outside on cool, sunny days. Not so much now, sadly.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck