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What is the Holy Spirit?
Posted on: February 20, 2011 - 12:22am
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What is the Holy Spirit?
What do we think this entity actually is? Were christians talking about basic human conscience without realising it?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
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Christ, I don't know. I've tried to dig into this before but the Christians can't even agree on what the hell it all means. The best thing is watching the Jews and the Christians fight about whether or not the Old Testament books talk about the trinity or not.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Christians don't know. How could they, when Holy Spirit is in Bible used for two quite different things.
Firstly, it is that spiritual entity which overshadowed (possessed) Jesus 3 years before his death (during baptism) and made him something like super-Jesus.
Secondly, it is a third principle of the divine trinity. Christianity is very vague on this. If we take the trinity from Hinduism, then the first one is Shiva the destroyer (equivalent of Father, or the bad policeman), Vishnu the preserver (equivalent of Son, or the good policeman) and Brahma the creator (equivalent of Holy Spirit). It seems to me that Hindus pray a lot to Vishnu if they need a loving and compassionate god to help them, their property and family. Those who pray to Shiva are usually saddhu potheads (monks) who have not much of property or family.
Brahma, or Holy Spirit is a little different, he's supposed to be the intelligent and active one in the trinity, who makes all the countless variety in the world. I think [url=http://www.youtube.com/user/DarkMatter2525]DM2525 from Youtube[/url] has figured it out pretty well, in his videos, Jeffrey the HS is the clever one of the three.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
Exactly, but you've seen Christians debate before, they don't care, lol. You'd think the Jews would know what their own book says, but the Christians seem to think they know better than the people who wrote the damned thing.
The ancient Jews weren't technically polytheistic, they were more like henotheists...they believed in more than one God, but they thought there tribal god was way better than the other gods of the day and that was the only god they worshipped. Well, mostly, sometimes they worshipped other gods, but they weren't supposed to, on pain of death from the ruling class.
Anyone who wants to 'understand' the trinity just needs to go to a theist forum and ask, 'What's the trinity?'. Total shit-storm. They eat each other alive because they can't agree, then they all say they agree anyway even though they can't agree, lol. They 'agree' by saying something cryptic that doesn't mean anything, then nodding sagely.
Sort of reminds me of the metaphysics talk with Mr. Metaphysics right now and philosophy in general. They all seem so certain but they can't even agree amongst themselves, but they still think their methods are good at discerning truth.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Never really was sure what "filled with the Holy Ghost" was supposed to mean.
However, I like this quote :
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Sounds like a good theme opener for a Jerry Springer show.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
The same way that perople generally believe a person has a spirit Judaism thought that god had a spirit. As a person's spirit is not as separate person from himself neither was god's.
"In the Tanakh, the word ruach generally means wind, breath, mind, spirit. In a living creature (nephesh chayah), the ruach is the breath, whether of animals (Gen 7:15; Psa 104:25, 29) or mankind (Isa 42:5; Ezek 37:5). God is the creator of ruach: "The ruach of God (from God) is in my nostrils" (Job 27:3). In God's hand is the ruach of all mankind (Job 12:10; Isa 42:5). In mankind, ruach further denotes the principle of life that possesses reason, will, and conscience. The ruach imparts the divine image to man, and constitutes the animating dynamic which results in man's nephesh as the subject of personal life.
When applied to God, the word Ruach indicates creative activity (Gen 1:2) and active power (Isa 40:13). The Spirit of God also works in providence (Job 33:4; Psa 104:30), in redemption (Ezek 11:19; Ezek 36:26-27), in upholding and guiding his chosen ones (Neh 9:20; Psa 143:10; Hag 2:5), and in the empowering of the Messiah (Isa 11:2; Isa 42:1; Isa 61:1).
In short, as the ruach is to the created nephesh, so the Ruach Elohim is to God Himself, part of God and identified with God. Ruach may be understood as the Author of the animating dynamic of the created order, the underlying Principle of creation, and the One that imparts the nephesh to the entire universe."
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Spirit_of_God/spirit_of_god.html
As Greek philosophy influenced the Hellenistic world of Judaism the stoic idea of Logos, Spirit and Wisdom influenced the interpretation of scripture. If you look at Proverbs 8 you will see that wisdom ( like the wisdom anyone else would have ) is presented as a consort of god ( poetically). With Greek influence and that of Philo of Alexandria wisdom, spirit and logos were seen as the first creation of god whereby he created. Wisdom here was literally viewed as the wife of god by Jews on the Island of Elephantine, Egypt where a temple was erected. If you compare this passage with the first section of the Gospel of John you will see where the idea of Logos ( the Word ) was seen as the firstborn of all creation and then applied to Jesus Christ as pre-existent.
22 “The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.
24 When there were no watery depths, I was given birth,
when there were no springs overflowing with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the world or its fields
or any of the dust of the earth.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was constantly at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. 9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. 14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. No one has seen God at any time ; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
As man has a spirit so has god. I Corinthians 2:
11 For what man knows the things of a man (how can man know or think and understand and perceive and have consciousness of "self"
except (through) the spirit of the man which is "IN" him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. :12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might know the (spiritual) things that have been freely given to us by God.
God gives his spirit to the initiated christian at baptism Act 2:28 etc.; The Church later developed the trinity and so it became a person. Spirit (ruach) is feminine in Hebrew and neuter ( a thing) in the New Testament Greek.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
So the implication being there was some localized material being that this spirit was a part of?
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Let me explain the doctrine of the Trinity:
God the Father is convenience.
God the Son is convenience.
God the Holy Spirit is convenience.
All three are one in the same, convenience.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Kinda looks that way don't it? Its sot of like consciousness it is a property of your mind. Spirit is a property of a person or I guess a god according to the Abrahamic tradition. It really was associated with breath (ruach in Hebrew means breath and so spirit also in the Greek pneuma means breath and so spirit ). No breath no life.Ya gotta remember that you're dealing with a period of time when the sophisticated Greeks believe that air was purified fire and water condensed air and earth some altered water. Some believed it in different combinations. Air was something else you could feel it but not see it. For some philosophers of that period God emitted fire as creation and so forth. ther were just 4 elements earth, air, fire and water. But god could be thought of as spirit and those who worshipped him had to do so in spirit. Paul used a term psychyos ( psychical or non fleshy body) in distinction from pneuma. In I Corinthians 15 that is the type of body the resurrected have a sort of metamorphosis from the physical.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
An attempt to disprove that you can't suck and blow, at the same time.
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
Wow I repent and believe now. Thank you. I owe you my salvation
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
I'd be keen to hear what believers feel is the Holy Spirit - they obviously must think/feel something about this entity...but what?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
I'm sure Mr. M would enlighten us
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"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
Meh....just buy me a lap dance...
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
He would tell us that if he feels that the entity exists, then logically it provides evidence that it must exist. After all, since the feeling of the holy spirit is limitless, any attempts by atheists to disprove the holy spirit would fail because it is necessary that the holy spirit be unlimited in order to be the holy spirit and to try and say that the holy spirit is not there would be to try and place a limit upon the holy spirit. You see Holy Ghost + Imagination+ delusion +schizophrenic= Necessary that the holy spirit must exist, but logically that can only be if it is unlimited, to say otherwise is illogical.
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“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
redneF, I've actually seen that graphic in several churches. Except that it's done in mosaic and it's in Latin.
I'm sure my father preached this same sermon at Riverbend christian camp in 1976, after which there were shouts of joy and the righteous burnouts of 2 dozen pale green Hillman Imps.
http://www.riverbend.org.nz/site/cpage.asp?cpage_id=13113&sec_id=166
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Mr M. was actually alright up to the point where he started attacking Bob personally. Up to that point I liked the guy, I thought he was self deluded, but I could sympathize because when I was younger I used to be an agnostic based on much the same logic he is employing. Too bad he turned out to be an asshole that turns to ad hominem attacks. People like him fascinate me because they obviously posses the mental capacity to rationalize themselves out of the delusion, but choose not to... It's refreshing in a way from your everyday theist, but ultimately it all comes down to emotion it seems.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
It can't be easy arguing with the Medusa head of an RRS gang, what with RedNef providing the stormtroopers and Bob the tactical bombing. What got me; and others too, obviously; was that his argument, as Harley points out, relied on its own internal veracity in the absence of all coherent proof. You could only accept such an argument if you wanted or needed to.
I still have no idea how he defeated atheism so resoundingly without using any arguments at all. In fact it was this profound revelation in Verse 43, Chapter 9 of his posts that very nearly convinced me of the power of god right there on the spot.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
I think the whole thing with Mr. Metaphysics demonstrated that you can construct an argument that can be logically valid and therefore give a Good House Keeping seal of approval as rationally sound, Then you can reverse it and it makes the opposite claim rational since the logical structure is valid. Which means to say that we were spinning our wheels on the same old ruts in the road that philosophy has made for 2600 years. You get nowhere on that road really. Hopefully no one got a flat tire. You have to find a different ballpark ( say science or history) to play that game in to actually have a winner. Lions 7, Christians 0.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
Well, those arguments don't.
In reality.
They never did.
That's why they never graduated from 'assumption based argument', to 'reality'.
Philosophers were 'wannabe' experts (pseudo scientists), who instead of modeling experiements in 'reality' would model them in their 'minds', and output 'anecdotal' evidence.
Basically like an IOU (for a demonstration).
They are not, the final verdict, of reality.
That's why science ignores their dogma.
History has many examples of where their 'predictions' built on their assumptions (logic) failed.
Their predictions of B, are based on their beliefs surrounding A. If there are no dissimilarities that can be found between the 2, they assume that laws surrounding A, encompass both A and B, and that they share a universal law.
Do that enough times, with enough dissimilar things, and it becomes intuitive, and a powerfully compelling theory.
But, it's never actual absolute proof that it's compatible with reality.
One of the best examples of a philosophical 'logic' that fell flat on it's face, was "What goes up, must come down"
That was entirely logical, to assume that, that is how all of reality worked.
But, that didn't turn out so well....
The argument is a strawman, to begin with.
It struggles with time/space, fundamentally. And 'arbitrarily' decides that there can be no infinite regress in the physical world, or 'perpetual loops', or feedback, or regenerative systems.
Because there are none to be 'found' to exist. Sound like a familiar argument?....
Basically, it boils down to, a 'we' vs 'them'.
'Because we don't see any evidence to support those theories, we say it is not logical, we say it is not rational, we reject those theories, and this is how we say it is'.
'So it is said, so it shall be!!"
WTF are 'we', Kemosabe?
Need they be reminded of the logic of the "What goes up, must come down" verdict?
And why do they (we) have the monopoly on being able to use that argument, and 'them' (us) don't?
Double standard?
Some are more equal than others?
They're not discriminating, are they?
Noooooooo.......they have 'objective morals'....
They're the 'good guys'.
They play for 'god's team'.
Atheists are on the wrong team, they can't win! We cannot let them win!
They can't be allowed to be right!
It's the antithesis to being 'open minded' when you put rigid constraints on things you can only imagine.
It's not 'practical', or 'useful' to limit our imagination to what we 'imagine' reality to be.
It boils down to hubris.
Philosophers are pussies.
Knowledge is power.
They do not want to admit that they do not know. They once had the monopoly on 'knowledge' and 'understanding'.
Then science came along, and didn't 'know any better', and discovered that what goes up, can keep going up.........maybe to infinity?
What do you know?
Their (flat earth, virgin mary, thunder is the gods being angry) 'logic' and 'reasoning' was incorrect.
Incompatible with 'reality'.
It wasn't the first time the 'flat earthers' were wrong, and it won't be the last.
This 'god' thing is their "Great White Hope'.
It could easily be their 'Swan Song'.
Tomorrow we could be visited by aliens, who tell us that we were planted here as Homosapiens 100,000 yrs ago, by them.
So much for 'god making man in his own image', and for him having a 'plan' for us...
I'd love to get some popcorn, and watch them rush the Vatican...
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
I'm with you - I'd love some alien mob to turn up and cause the godly to gasp in horror as their eternal lives fell apart.
Still - I think the movie Contact was right when it filled the desert around the large array with nutjobs after the discovery of the signal from Vega. The god people would re-interpret any changing reality to suit. Satan would be testing them with false prophets and signs.
I just wish we could create life in a lab and the recipe could be revealed with a whole generation of kids reading archie comics with abiogenesis kits advertised on them instead of sea monkeys.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
My fear is that the alien group would come as friendlies. The Christians would interpret them as fallen angels or devils and go to war with them and that would be it for all of us with a click or push of a button.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism