Facts about a god?
Offline There doesn't seem to be any actual facts surrounding a rumoured Christian godlike figure.
So, what extraordinary scientific evidence, for such an extraordinary claim, are there?
If there is no scientific evidence, then admit it.
If there is, please cite the peer reviewed, independent scientific tests performed, and the scientific data.
Or, is there just persistent rumours?
The rumours circulating.
1- "He is Spirit (non-material)."
How has this been tested scientifically, to verify/falsify?
2- " He dwells outside of time."
How has this been tested scientifically, to verify/falsify?
3- "God exists"
How has this been tested scientifically, to verify/falsify?
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
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Offline Awesome post. The trouble with science, is that there are a few things that can be proved with the scientific method. All the rest relies on the "best guess"/ hpothesis/theory result that we as a human race can come up with.
Number 1..He is spirit (non-material) I have to relate to what we think we know about the big bang as well as dark matter. (matter and anti-matter) Dark matter being the infinite black that matter (the material universe) is expanding into. When matter comes into contact with the dark matter it is vaporized. Or so far as we can control said effect. (courtesy of CERN) So, I theorize like this. If "God" is immaterial, then it is classified as a great nothingness. We were only blessed with our senses and 3 dimensions, not capable of passing beyond these things. If you have time, take a look at dark matter, it will amaze you. If the church believes that God is immaterial, then we have hit yet another contradiction with religion. Nothing cannot be something at the same time. So in thier own way they negate the existence of their God for us.
Number 2. He dwells outside of time. Haha, a ridiculous concept anyways. Time is a human creation (much like god). It is a form of measurement. No more, no less. Immortal beings would have no sense of time anyways......Please someone correct me if I am wrong, but don't we measure time around the the revolutions of our planet, and lights years by the distance light travels from the sun to the earth....(distance)......My other suggestion, if you can, find stephen hawkings Grand Design. I found it interesting. The universe is expanding, exponentionally, which suggests that there is a centermost point that it expands from, but into what. If everything has a begginging, and therefore an end, then why would God exist outside of the realm of time....Its just plain silly and unexplainable, and fallible, which makes it humanly pathetic. Such things cannot be tested and I feel like I just wasted my "time" writing this.
Number 3. God exists... Hmm. Wow. One heck of a claim. That depends on the sanity of the individual. Some people need to believe no more than a lonely child who creates an imaginary friend and cries when you don't set a plate at the table for that friend. It is real to the child. If God wanted to be a part of our existence, he would be here, not hiding in the shadow of blind faith. This cannot be tested or proven. Rendering it pointelss in logical terms.
A theist does not feel the need to speculate or theorize about God. They knowingly choose to believe that which cannot be proven, so no amount of logic pointing in every different direction will change a mind that stuck in etherial cement. It is fear based. It's surprising that the fear of the unknown can have enough power over someone to make them believe they have figured out the secret of the Universe. Much like arguing with a drunk person, utterly pointelss.
Thank you for posting this and I hope others can add to it and correct anything i am ignorant to, which is alot.
After coming into contact with a religious man I always feel I must wash my hands.
Friedrich Nietzsche
. The truth is we call it Dark Matter to symbolize how little we understand about it, not for the fact that it is black, or light absent (which it would be if theories are correct). If the theories are correct, the universe has a shit load more dark matter then currently detectable matter, and we literally are swimming in it right now as we speak (type). Number 2. I'm too drunk to touch this one and be nice about it. Lol, I would be as subtle as redneF, but not as nice. I like your closing paragraph, quite fitting considering I'm inebriated... I agree with your that no amount of logic would convince any theist, because in order to be a theist you need to reject logic at some level.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
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Offline mrOriginal wrote:Keep in mind I've had about three glasses of wine at this point, so I'm farrrrr from sober. If I've misread your post, I apologize in advance. Number 1. "When matter comes into contact with the dark matter it is vaporized.". Actually, that's as far from the truth as I am from sober. Gene would enlighten us with a scientific explanation but here's the layman's two cents. You're thinking about anti-matter I believe, dark matter is theorized to be composed of WIMPs (Weakly Interactive Massive Particles Awesome post. The trouble with science, is that there are a few things that can be proved with the scientific method. All the rest relies on the "best guess"/ hpothesis/theory result that we as a human race can come up with.
Number 1..He is spirit (non-material) I have to relate to what we think we know about the big bang as well as dark matter. (matter and anti-matter) Dark matter being the infinite black that matter (the material universe) is expanding into. When matter comes into contact with the dark matter it is vaporized. Or so far as we can control said effect. (courtesy of CERN) So, I theorize like this. If "God" is immaterial, then it is classified as a great nothingness. We were only blessed with our senses and 3 dimensions, not capable of passing beyond these things. If you have time, take a look at dark matter, it will amaze you. If the church believes that God is immaterial, then we have hit yet another contradiction with religion. Nothing cannot be something at the same time. So in thier own way they negate the existence of their God for us.
Number 2. He dwells outside of time. Haha, a ridiculous concept anyways. Time is a human creation (much like god). It is a form of measurement. No more, no less. Immortal beings would have no sense of time anyways......Please someone correct me if I am wrong, but don't we measure time around the the revolutions of our planet, and lights years by the distance light travels from the sun to the earth....(distance)......My other suggestion, if you can, find stephen hawkings Grand Design. I found it interesting. The universe is expanding, exponentionally, which suggests that there is a centermost point that it expands from, but into what. If everything has a begginging, and therefore an end, then why would God exist outside of the realm of time....Its just plain silly and unexplainable, and fallible, which makes it humanly pathetic. Such things cannot be tested and I feel like I just wasted my "time" writing this.
Number 3. God exists... Hmm. Wow. One heck of a claim. That depends on the sanity of the individual. Some people need to believe no more than a lonely child who creates an imaginary friend and cries when you don't set a plate at the table for that friend. It is real to the child. If God wanted to be a part of our existence, he would be here, not hiding in the shadow of blind faith. This cannot be tested or proven. Rendering it pointelss in logical terms.
A theist does not feel the need to speculate or theorize about God. They knowingly choose to believe that which cannot be proven, so no amount of logic pointing in every different direction will change a mind that stuck in etherial cement. It is fear based. It's surprising that the fear of the unknown can have enough power over someone to make them believe they have figured out the secret of the Universe. Much like arguing with a drunk person, utterly pointelss.
Thank you for posting this and I hope others can add to it and correct anything i am ignorant to, which is alot.
After coming into contact with a religious man I always feel I must wash my hands.
Friedrich Nietzsche
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
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Offline A god exists pretty much in any way they can make it seem plausible, at least in their own head.
See what I did there ><
You can't see him so he must be invisible. The sky and clouds are not a ceiling and the hubble has not located him so he must live outside space. He has "always" existed and will always exist so he must ignore "time" (which makes absolutely no sense because as we know time is merely a measurement of motion which would make him an unmoving object lol).
Faith is the word but next to that snugged up closely "lie's" the want.
"By simple common sense I don't believe in god, in none."-Charlie Chaplin
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Offline There doesn't seem to be any actual facts surrounding a rumoured Christian godlike figure.
So, what extraordinary scientific evidence, for such an extraordinary claim, are there?
If there is no scientific evidence, then admit it.
If there is, please cite the peer reviewed, independent scientific tests performed, and the scientific data.
Or, is there just persistent rumours?
The rumours circulating.
1- "He is Spirit (non-material)."
How has this been tested scientifically, to verify/falsify?
2- " He dwells outside of time."
How has this been tested scientifically, to verify/falsify?
3- "God exists"
How has this been tested scientifically, to verify/falsify?
He exists outside of time:
KHRONOS (or Chronus) was the Protogenos (primeval god) of time, a divinity who emerged self-formed at the beginning of creation in the Orphic cosmogonies. Khronos was imagined as an incorporeal god, serpentine in form, with three heads--that of a man, a bull, and a lion. He and his consort, serpentine Ananke (Inevitability), circled the primal world-egg in their coils and split it apart to form the ordered universe of earth, sea and sky. Khronos and Ananke continued to circle the cosmos after creation-their passage driving the circling of heaven and the eternal passage of time.
The figure of Khronos was essentially a cosmological doubling of the Titan Kronos (also "Father Time". The Orphics occasionally combined Khronos with their creator-god Phanes, and identified him with Ophion. His equivalent in the Phoenician cosmogony was probably Olam (Eternal Time), or Oulomos, as his name appears in Greek transcriptions.
Khronos was represented in Greco-Roman mosaic as Aion, "eternity" personified. He stands against the sky holding a wheel inscribed with the signs of the zodiac. Beneath his feet Gaia (Mother Earth) is usually seen reclining. The poet Nonnus describes Aion as an old man with long white hair and beard. Mosaics, however, present a youthful figure.
Some Greek Philosophers associated a term called Logos (Word) reason as the Aion or first form of creation. The New Testamnet gospel of John uses this idea as it was refined by Hellenistic Jewish philosophy (see Philo of Alexanderia ) Jesus became the Logos ...source of time through which god creates. The form or image of god... the infinite regrerss.
God Exists. God does not exist if he exists. Why because the idea of god as prior to time means that he may be being but not existent. The logos is the objectification, form or representative of god. So if god is real he does not exist since existence is relative and big guy god is absolute. God would be outside of time. So god does not exist. Is he real? If he is spirit and he breathed his spirit into us and you can believe this primitive anthropology. Then the very air is evidence of god.
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
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Offline That's awesome TG.
Fuck I love this place! It's totally pimp! 
Isn't it great that terrorists can't fly planes into knowledge?
Or that Christians can't burn the internet at the stake?
I guess theists are going to learn that evolution by natural selection, is how species evolves by the most adaptable to the changing environment flourish.
Errr....or should I say, that's how atheists will learn about how extinct theists became part of the fossil record, and proved Darwin was correct...
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
- Login to post comments
Offline That's awesome TG.
Fuck I love this place! It's totally pimp!
Isn't it great that terrorists can't fly planes into knowledge?
Or that Christians can't burn the internet at the stake?
I guess theists are going to learn that evolution by natural selection, is how species evolves by the most adaptable to the changing environment flourish.
Errr....or should I say, that's how atheists will learn about how extinct theists became part of the fossil record, and proved Darwin was correct...
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
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Offline The FACT that Science actually cannot prove ANYTHING with total certainty is NOT "a problem with the scientific method".
It is a fact about reality and our mind's finite ability to apprehend it. This fact is actually a problem for any non-empirically-based, non-scientific, knowledge claims.
The STRENGTH of the scientific method is that it explicitly acknowledges this and incorporates as many principles as possible - repeatability, peer review, requirement for as many independent verifications as possible, falsifiability where relevant, rigorous experimental and observational testing, etc - to establish what degree of confidence we can assign to any idea, any theory. And that it continually keeps the current consensus as to the confidence associated with any idea in mind in any theorizing or analysis involving the particular idea/theory. Even a researcher or theorist on 'the fringe' must still keep in mind his honest personal assessment of that finite certainty associated with each idea or theory.
Any proposition that cannot be subject to that sort of examination, does not warrant being treated as more than speculation, a possibility.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Offline Any proposition that cannot be subject to that sort of examination, does not warrant being treated as more than speculation, a possibility.
The irony is that intellectual honesty of science is used against it by ignoramuses, and even more ironic still, is that scientific method, which is as certain as we can get at this point in time, is replaced with complete fabrications. An outsider would be amused by the idiocy of it all.
In other words, they point to a 99.99999% certain statement, and say " HA, you can't know 100%, therefore you must be wrong". Conversely, they hold as fact something that has a probability of .00001% or less and call it fact. No wonder casinos are doing so well, people are really bad at math.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
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I guess I set the bar, a little too high...
I'll answer this from remembering back when I was a theist, and how I look at it now.
The whole thing, "God exists", "God dwells outside of time/space", and "God is spirit" all point to the same thing. If God is supposed to dwell outside of space and time, in spirit form only, there is no way to verify or falsify it. However, that being simply does not exist in the same universe I do, as it is outside of space and time which are the fabric of this universe.
It's designed to not lend itself to being proved true or false by science or objective observation. In the process though, it's made itself irrelevant since it by definition does not exist in this universe. I don't believe that there is any scientific evidence, hypotheses, theories, or anything outside of pure science fiction that beings or objects from one universe can interact from those residing in another.
This God as postulated cannot exist.
Beth
How's my proselytizing? Call 1-800-FANATIC
Beth
Welcome, BethK!
Ya, it's an intellectually lazy way to theorize.
Hit upon a stumbling block?
No problem, we'll just remove that constraint, by tagging an 'un', in front of it.
Need more power? Add a 'mega', or 'super duper' in front of it.
Problem solved.
Let's pat ourselves on the back, and cut out for lunch. This thinking crap makes us thirsty...
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
Awesome post. The trouble with science, is that there are a few things that can be proved with the scientific method. All the rest relies on the "best guess"/ hpothesis/theory result that we as a human race can come up with.
Number 1..He is spirit (non-material) I have to relate to what we think we know about the big bang as well as dark matter. (matter and anti-matter) Dark matter being the infinite black that matter (the material universe) is expanding into. When matter comes into contact with the dark matter it is vaporized. Or so far as we can control said effect. (courtesy of CERN) So, I theorize like this. If "God" is immaterial, then it is classified as a great nothingness. We were only blessed with our senses and 3 dimensions, not capable of passing beyond these things. If you have time, take a look at dark matter, it will amaze you. If the church believes that God is immaterial, then we have hit yet another contradiction with religion. Nothing cannot be something at the same time. So in thier own way they negate the existence of their God for us.
Number 2. He dwells outside of time. Haha, a ridiculous concept anyways. Time is a human creation (much like god). It is a form of measurement. No more, no less. Immortal beings would have no sense of time anyways......Please someone correct me if I am wrong, but don't we measure time around the the revolutions of our planet, and lights years by the distance light travels from the sun to the earth....(distance)......My other suggestion, if you can, find stephen hawkings Grand Design. I found it interesting. The universe is expanding, exponentionally, which suggests that there is a centermost point that it expands from, but into what. If everything has a begginging, and therefore an end, then why would God exist outside of the realm of time....Its just plain silly and unexplainable, and fallible, which makes it humanly pathetic. Such things cannot be tested and I feel like I just wasted my "time" writing this.
Number 3. God exists... Hmm. Wow. One heck of a claim. That depends on the sanity of the individual. Some people need to believe no more than a lonely child who creates an imaginary friend and cries when you don't set a plate at the table for that friend. It is real to the child. If God wanted to be a part of our existence, he would be here, not hiding in the shadow of blind faith. This cannot be tested or proven. Rendering it pointelss in logical terms.
A theist does not feel the need to speculate or theorize about God. They knowingly choose to believe that which cannot be proven, so no amount of logic pointing in every different direction will change a mind that stuck in etherial cement. It is fear based. It's surprising that the fear of the unknown can have enough power over someone to make them believe they have figured out the secret of the Universe. Much like arguing with a drunk person, utterly pointelss.
Thank you for posting this and I hope others can add to it and correct anything i am ignorant to, which is alot.
After coming into contact with a religious man I always feel I must wash my hands.Friedrich Nietzsche
"Whoever feels predestined to see and not to believe will find all believers too noisy and pushy: he guards against them."
Friedrich Nietzsche
It's not a problem for scientists.
There are 'forces'.
Still not that much of a problem.
It might not be a 'constraint' to 'forces'.
They might be independant of space/time.
Ya.
See the White Paper titled 'Some dude that apparently goes by the name of Abraham. Oh, ya, that's right, I forgot! You can't cause he ain't been alive for like 2000 something years, But, TRUST ME, he was right!!"
Ya, maybe we're being to harsh......
Not!!!!
Unleash the Fury, Brother!
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris