Which were the smartest?

redneF
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Which were the smartest?

 

This is a question for the members who have been around here for a while.

Which have been the most intelligent theists (sic) that have debated here?

Because all I seem to see, are extremely passive aggressive pseudo intellectuals, who suffer from extreme hubris, and are just completely out of touch with reality.

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


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Ktulu wrote: Ok, this may be

Ktulu wrote:

Ok, this may be the wine talking, but I think you're making a valid point.  I will keep an open mind.  Where do I begin to give this an actual shot?  Give me a book title, preferably over the internet, and I promise I will attempt it.  Also you may be able to guide me in my attempt to understand where you are coming from.

You seem utterly convinced, and you seem like an intelligent person, there has to be something there.  Maybe I can understand it, or understand where you have gone wrong.

So, assume I'm completely ignorant of your position, what's the first thing I should read?

Edit: drunk mistype/spell

How nice of you. We esotericists typically read books for theory and then obtain our evidence in practice. Most of the books are about psychology, personal development, other dimensions and so on, evidence is not given out freely. But you might give a try to the mentioned Leadbetter's Occult chemistry. Nevermind the archaic language, the actual claim there is, that Leadbetter counted inner particles of atoms of certain elements through clairvoyant vision. This is then compared to actual atomic weight of these elements which was discovered and measured later. There is a mathemathical correlation between the numbers. There is more of possible evidence, but haven't read into it deeply yet.

I might be wrong, the man who wrote it wasn't infallible, in fact, he was a pervert and should have rotten in jail. But a literature bridging physics and esotericism is comparatively rare, so let's make some use of him. 

If you need to get the hang of some terminology, I recommend the introductory book. If we assume you know nothing about my position, you should read this first. If you're in hurry, the first chapter on physical and etheric-physical matter will suffice for now. 

As for the evidence, I can just turn my attention and feel the etheric substance, because it is quite tangible to me. If I feel like wanting a change of evidence on some days, I try to look at some teacher's aura. Teachers are people, who usually sit still in front of white wall, so they're good for practice. Just recently I looked at one. The lowest layer of aura looks like a glow, like a glowing smoke slowly dissipating outwardly, or a very slowed down flame, if you want. It leaves a trace, when the person moves. For untrained eye it has white color, perhaps with hints of violet on the ends. But last time I tried, I saw the aura in distinctly golden color. Of course, I have a great practice in etheric touch, but very little in etheric vision, so I'm grateful for every good observation I can get. 

redneF wrote:

This has been discussed.

If that's the only method you can devise as a method of distinction between reality/not reality, then you have the most unreliable method to try and quantify and qualify anything.

It's just that simple.

An individual's personal 'perception' is wholly inadequate to quantify and 'scale' stimuli, or distinguish between there/not there dichotomies.

This is well known, and understood, scientifically.

If you'd like to debate about it, we can do that 1 on 1, and I will demonstrate how this is a completely, and absolutely accurate model of human inadequacy.

Yes, we could debate it. I still can't comprehend how human senses can be distrusted on the very basic level I mean. For example, your senses are more than adequate to tell, if anyone holds your hand or not. And my senses are more than adequate to tell, if anyone etheric holds my hand or not. If someone grabs your hand, it's such a strong sensation, that you can't help but notice. Any brain scanners attached to your head also can't help but notice that you noticed. 

Usually when we debate that, someone pulls out well-known sensory illusions that occur regularly every time, because our brain is hard-wired for them. If the senses would be as unreliable as you describe, people couldn't drive, walk over street or play darts without regular casualties. 

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Hi Luny[quotemost of the

Hi Luny

[quotemost of the books are about psychology/quote]

A couple things. Psychology, even among secular morons don't realize that psychology is a science. So, in order not to hurt the psychologists feelings, they say, oh well, it's a SOFT SCIENCE. (LOL).

Christian psychology before the acid of modernism came through was good and correctly done. Freud even had little idols by his window that his worshipped, which formed the presuppositional framework of his "work." Jung was always high on LSD. And Skinner, well, he was super psyco. He's that guy who wanted to make Frankenstein.

What esoteric books do you read?

You don't know what you are talking about. Psychology even admits both in the Merck Manual and in their DSM manual that they are to change in accordance to the sensitivity of the culture. This is ad hominem evidence that psychology is nothing more than a tickle machine intended for the ears.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).

A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.

Respectfully,

Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).


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Jean Chauvin wrote:Hi

Jean Chauvin wrote:

Hi Luny

[quotemost of the books are about psychology/quote]

A couple things. Psychology, even among secular morons don't realize that psychology is a science. So, in order not to hurt the psychologists feelings, they say, oh well, it's a SOFT SCIENCE. (LOL).

Christian psychology before the acid of modernism came through was good and correctly done. Freud even had little idols by his window that his worshipped, which formed the presuppositional framework of his "work." Jung was always high on LSD. And Skinner, well, he was super psyco. He's that guy who wanted to make Frankenstein. 

Yes, psychology may become the most important science of upcoming civilization. It takes a damn good psychology to make people develop for their best good and society's. All the glory of physics and technology is useless, when people are not willing to use it for market reasons, or willing to use it as a weapon. It is a soft science, because psychology is still in its infancy. So far it seriously influences the society in definition of how to sell more stuff, how to scare people and how to isolate dangerous crazies. (unless they shield themselves with some religion or ethnicity)

So what is the christian psychology? People are inherently evil and need to feel a lot of fear of God, which will straight them out and they will magically know what to do, if they pray often? 
I like Jung, he was very innovative and progressive. And brave, that's what LSD users need to be. But Freud was coward, he didn't even let anyone use his method on himself. In my opinion he kept seeing everywhere sex and violence, which is our lowest common denominator of humanity and got frightened of his own analysis. So he didn't really discover anything new. His fault was, that he thought this is all that there is to psychology. 
I don't know Skinner, but if he wanted to create an artificial man, like Mary Shelley's scientist Victor Frankenstein, then he was either crazy, or his parents didn't explain him how to make a man or woman through easier and more pleasant method. 

Jean Chauvin wrote:
 What esoteric books do you read? 
 
I have read most of Benjamin Creme's bibliography, he bases a lot of his books on A. A. Bailey, H. P. Blavatsky, H. Roerich and the idea of evolving through incarnations into a Master of wisdom, some of whom influence and inspire all departments of human activities, including politics and science. He's also still alive, so he can comment on lots of contemporary events and relate today's knowledge to older esoteric works.

As for AAB, I've read these so far:
Unfinished Biography
Letters on Occult Meditation (my favorite, understood most of it),
A treatise on white magic or the Path of a disciple (didn't understand most of it at the time),
Esoteric psychology I and II,
Esoteric healing 
I've also read many related materials on esoteric and mundane modern astrology, rays, karma and Reappearance. Plus something from the books of Blavatsky. 
 

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Luminon wrote:I might be

Luminon wrote:

I might be wrong, the man who wrote it wasn't infallible, in fact, he was a pervert and should have rotten in jail. But a literature bridging physics and esotericism is comparatively rare, so let's make some use of him. 

If you need to get the hang of some terminology, I recommend the introductory book. If we assume you know nothing about my position, you should read this first. If you're in hurry, the first chapter on physical and etheric-physical matter will suffice for now. 

I'm going to read those books when I have a bit of time, give me a week or so, and thank you for the information.  Now what can I do to... get in touch with my senses.  I'm not even sure how to ask this without sounding silly, and I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I do want to give this a fair shot.  Is there an exercise I can attempt to enhance my extra sensory perception?  How does one begin? 

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Ktulu wrote:Is there an

Ktulu wrote:

Is there an exercise I can attempt to enhance my extra sensory perception?  How does one begin? 

Transcendental meditation would probably be the best place to start. To try and relax your body, and calm your mind. I've been doing it for decades.

It's a really great discipline to have, regardless of anything spiritual.

Another thing is learning better techniques at breathing, while you're awake. Most people are 'shallow' breathers.

I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."

"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks

" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris


Ktulu
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redneF wrote:Ktulu wrote:Is

redneF wrote:

Ktulu wrote:

Is there an exercise I can attempt to enhance my extra sensory perception?  How does one begin? 

Transcendental meditation would probably be the best place to start. To try and relax your body, and calm your mind. I've been doing it for decades.

It's a really great discipline to have, regardless of anything spiritual.

Another thing is learning better techniques at breathing, while you're awake. Most people are 'shallow' breathers.

I do that at work all the time, I work in a very stressful environment.  I usually just take 5 minutes, stare at a wall and try to think of a dull gray box at first, and than eliminate the box to attempt to think of nothing.  I've been doing it for so long it's second nature now.  I've never attributed anything supernatural to it, it's just how I reduce my stress... I've never felt anything extra... 

Breathing I don't really concentrate on.  Also another quick exercise is to count ten slow drops into a spoon, and drink the contents when finished.  At first I used to think of a little bottle with the label PATIENCE on it.  But I no longer need that.  This stops me from punching stupid people in the face.  Again, nothing extrasensory there.

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Ktulu wrote: I'm going to

Ktulu wrote:

I'm going to read those books when I have a bit of time, give me a week or so, and thank you for the information.  Now what can I do to... get in touch with my senses.  I'm not even sure how to ask this without sounding silly, and I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I do want to give this a fair shot.  Is there an exercise I can attempt to enhance my extra sensory perception?  How does one begin? 

It's nice to see someone reading recommended books, thanks for your time! You're a wonderful skeptic, a neutral one and willing to give things a try, that's how I like them Smiling

There are simple exercises, that work for many. I was born with that and a friend managed to success in a couple months of ocassional evening practice. This is one of sufficient instructions. So I don't know if that's diffcult or not, but I guess it can't be harder than learning to drive a car. Technically, everyone should be capable of this. I think the main factors how well can you control your feelings, imagination, attention, in short, the functions of astral body. (see the introductory book) And secondly, some experience and practice. 

Nevermind the vague "energy" talk. My investigations suggest, that this is actually a method of using your astral body to condense together elements etheric matter from your surroundings. The condensed elements (or a particular combination of them) are these most responsive to astral energy, so they get separated out of the natural etheric matter around. Through an act of attention and visualization, will or desire you give your astral body a vector, that forces surrounding responsive etheric matter to condensate into a desired shape and size. Which is, in your case, between your palms, less or more than 8 inches apart. 

It is possible that there are more kinds of that phenomenon. My etheric matter is somewhat different from what all the  internet guys describe. But it's not a haptic illusion, it's as detailed as grasping a real lump of plasticine or jelly, including the softness, elasticity, wrinkles and general squishyness. This is what you should eventually achieve, don't settle for any vague, inconclusive beginner feelings that might be actually haptic illusion or wishful thinking. The perception can be as real and strong, enough to overshadow the common touch sense. 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.


Ktulu
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Luminon wrote:Ktulu wrote:

Luminon wrote:

Ktulu wrote:

I'm going to read those books when I have a bit of time, give me a week or so, and thank you for the information.  Now what can I do to... get in touch with my senses.  I'm not even sure how to ask this without sounding silly, and I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I do want to give this a fair shot.  Is there an exercise I can attempt to enhance my extra sensory perception?  How does one begin? 

It's nice to see someone reading recommended books, thanks for your time! You're a wonderful skeptic, a neutral one and willing to give things a try, that's how I like them Smiling

There are simple exercises, that work for many. I was born with that and a friend managed to success in a couple months of ocassional evening practice. This is one of sufficient instructions. So I don't know if that's diffcult or not, but I guess it can't be harder than learning to drive a car. Technically, everyone should be capable of this. I think the main factors how well can you control your feelings, imagination, attention, in short, the functions of astral body. (see the introductory book) And secondly, some experience and practice. 

Nevermind the vague "energy" talk. My investigations suggest, that this is actually a method of using your astral body to condense together elements etheric matter from your surroundings. The condensed elements (or a particular combination of them) are these most responsive to astral energy, so they get separated out of the natural etheric matter around. Through an act of attention and visualization, will or desire you give your astral body a vector, that forces surrounding responsive etheric matter to condensate into a desired shape and size. Which is, in your case, between your palms, less or more than 8 inches apart. 

It is possible that there are more kinds of that phenomenon. My etheric matter is somewhat different from what all the  internet guys describe. But it's not a haptic illusion, it's as detailed as grasping a real lump of plasticine or jelly, including the softness, elasticity, wrinkles and general squishyness. This is what you should eventually achieve, don't settle for any vague, inconclusive beginner feelings that might be actually haptic illusion or wishful thinking. The perception can be as real and strong, enough to overshadow the common touch sense. 

I will give this an honest shot.  How long do you think before I should feel something conclusive?  And I wouldn't worry about false positives, remember, I am a skeptic.  Also I do have a healthy amount of imagination and will power, and I use it on regular basis.

"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc


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Ktulu wrote:I will give this

Ktulu wrote:

I will give this an honest shot.  How long do you think before I should feel something conclusive?  And I wouldn't worry about false positives, remember, I am a skeptic.  Also I do have a healthy amount of imagination and will power, and I use it on regular basis.

Nobody can tell, how long will it take for you.  Willpower and imagination are very important for success, but to be aware of it, you need to train your sensitivity. It may be an unusual idea for you to imagine that you concentrate and feel something invisible between your hands. Imagine the energy flowing and concentrating there, that you can compress it and make it solid and tangible. Btw, psipog.net is probably the best resource. Amounts of succesful practitioners there are impressive, unless of course they're all proverbial naked emperors Smiling

I believe it may help to listen to a music that really gets you in a focused and powerful mood, like psychedelic or aggressive music, or something you like and won't disturb you. This should make your energy stronger, thus easier to perceive. On the other hand, a real deep meditation could increase your sensitivity, specially Transmission meditation. I've seen/done both of these myself... 

How long? Nobody knows, except it probably is according to bell curve. For some it works immediately once they really try, for some it takes years of Transmission meditation to feel the energies, and most are somewhere between that. I looked around the web and found somewhere a more relevant information on how long it takes to create a psi-ball, even though people already did it. It seems to be anywhere from 2 minutes, to 10, 15, even 30 minutes of continual focusing. There are some cases like me, who can produce the etheric stuff instantaneously, but it takes some seconds to arrange it into some regular shape. 

For most people, psi-ball disappears quickly. But I think their sensitivity is weak, they do not actually perceive the stuff itself, they can only feel it, when it's charged with energy. A psi-ball gets then harder, warm, tingly, vibrating, even skin-numbing. That does take me such a longer time too, but I usually don't bother. Once the attention drops, energy soon disperses and it drops below their threshold of sensitivity. 

Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.