Free Will is Fantasy
Offline FREE WILL IS FANTASY
There is no such thing as free will. This is a pagan notion from Greek Philosopher that has crept into the church. Christianity does not consistently believe in Free Will.
Logically speaking, to have free will denotes a negative that you are free FROM a given something or someone. Thus logically this would mean that you are free from God.
Since God is sovereign, this means that He has every control over ALL His creation. To denote that you are free from God would logically mean that God is NOT sovereign.
Many Christians not trained in logic commit this huge error and logical fallacy. Those who hate God on here, do not hate God via their own free will. They hate God because they were born to hate God.
They are filthy scum that God created as an example of His justice. They will all be destroyed.
Thus Free Will is false via reality of all. To say that you have free will simply is another pathetic attempt at hating God. But in reality, you are simply storing up the wrath of God that is soon to come your way.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
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Listen, I don't care what your beliefs are.
You, sir, are a complete fruitcake.
You are a theistic version of redneF.
It's simply amazing that you and Jean worship the same God.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Says the complete fruitcake!
Like I've said in the past, in regards to these two in fact, theism sure seems to makes for strange bedfellows!
"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism
QFT
ciarin.com
Oh jeez.....
“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”
I think it makes perfect sense. That's what happens when you base your beliefs on metaphysics.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Me, too. It took them forever to stop responding to another troll, Mind_over_matter. And I hope I don't start that particular nut case up again just by mentioning his name. I feel reluctant to comment because I don't want to get into it with you-know-who. And I don't find him amusing at all. Instead I want to kick his ass somewhere so far away he can't find us again. Makes me glad to think if there is a hell that is where I'm going. I won't have to spend eternity with christians. If god/s/dess existed, I would thank her/him/it/them for the option.
Problem is, without jerk trolls around, we all talk to each other which is worse than being married to each other.
Are you hitting the "Recent Posts" link? It is on the left and it helps a lot. When I first got on, I didn't see it because of the way I size my browser window.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Haha! I think you're right, we need out-group targets for our simmering cauldron of atheist rage lest we turn on each other like rabid cannibals.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
Meh, I have an odd sense of humour...
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
Unlike all these theist's who claim that we all follow the "atheistic worldview", we are such a mosaic of voices that there will be a lot of debates and disagreements. I personally think that it's a strength, not a weakness, and one of the reasons I like the atmosphere... but I like good discussions and debates so I may not be the most unbiased voice there!
"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!
I disagree with you 100% and the only reason I'm not threatening to come over to your house and beat you up is I'm already scheduled to brutalize a nun later today.
-------------
But yea, I agree with you. Although...honestly, I think it is more about moderation style than anything else. If you take the average theist forum and get the mods to go on a vacation it would get just nasty very quickly. People are people.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
By the way, if you ever want to chat with Mind_over_Matter, he's on forums.catholic.org. You know you want to.
Everything makes more sense now that I've stopped believing.
yes
ciarin.com
Hello,
A couple of things were said that are absurd. I will help you.
First of all, to say that I am a theist is misleading and false. It's very general. I am specifically a Christian theist. Mr. Metaphysics, who knows what he is. If he's a Roman Catholic, then he's going to purgatory FOREVER. (LOL).
Also, why metaphysics? The Greek word Meta with the genitive is WITH, and with the accusative it's After. The genitive case has it with the creepy witches like that Clarin girl (she hates me because I know more about the occult then she does, and I'm a Christian.
The meta via the accusative denotes the metaphysics in philosophy via reality.
So which Meta are you theist? Are you meta with the genitive or the accusative.
Also, are you a pagan Roman Catholic?
Look, that Witch Clarin is also a theist. LOL, just lump all together, thus making a categorical fallacy. Either Mr. Meta is a very wimpy/weak Christian (baby Christian) or he's a pagan on his way to hell with the rest of ya.
Anyway, to say i'm a troll becaues you disagree with me is a fallacy. You know this. Also, to say I'm fundamental POE is a classificational fallacy (this fallacy is most popular lately). Fundamentalist of the early 20th century, yes, but not of the 21st century. The word has changed and now fundalmentailst technically speaking are Amish and Quakers and the such.
For those really interested, there was a 2 volume (or 4 volume) little set of books put out called the fundamentals. It is in contrast with a recent book called fundamentalism which traces the evolution of the term.
But none of you will listen or understand, and continue to say absurd things. That's okay, you're atheists.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
You notice where I hang around ........
I'm just a monogamous kind of gal.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Is that before or after the public abortathon, remember you promised to be there, bring your own coat hanger.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
That guy is a cut and paste moron. He's in the same category as that Elija truth guy.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6S9OidmNZM
Jean, a few words on how to read English text.
A Christian theist is still a Theist.
Many words have multiple meanings, which we have to distinguish from the context.
It is true that this is messy, makes it too easy to misunderstand, but it is what we have to grasp if we are to communicate with each other.
It is due to the fact that language is an evolved construct, just like life itself, and, just like our physical bodies, has many less-that-ideal features. Natural, evolved, structures are inevitably 'just good enough' to work in the context, the environment, they have to 'survive' in.
The actual meaning of a word, its usage, is NOT defined by its structure.
This seems to be just another aspect of the very 'anal-retentive' nature of your psychology - that you consider knowledge is only knowledge if it is 100% certain, that words are only 'valid' words if they have one precise meaning, that the Bible has to be entirely true or entirely false, and so on.
Clarin does appear to believe in some supernatural ideas, but if they are theistic, it is a very, very different form from yours, which is in turn very different from other many other Theists.
You do seem to have difficulty understanding and coping with the untidy complexity that is reality.
==========
We are not saying you are a Troll because we disagree with you.
Only a small proportion of Theists who come on here are considered to be Trolls, even though we fundamentally disagree with all of them. That is a fact. You are committing yet another of the non-sequiters and fallacies your posts are littered with, but it is one of the more clearly refutable ones.
===========
I will confess to having some psychological 'compulsions' of my own, such as finding it difficult to resist responding to people who I see gratuitously attacking reason and a rational approach to understanding reality. Even when there is more than a suspicion that they are 'yanking my chain'. It is still a violation of my ideal of an honest 'search for the Truth'.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
^^^ This.
The other aspect to Jean Jean, that is most archetypal of theism, is the flagrant double standards towards adherence to belief /faith/knowledge/understanding/behaviour.
It is the inalienable right of individuals to not be committed to some 'institutionalized' thinking/behaviour, that they have staunch objections to.
Atheists are not a homogenous group. They are a heterogeneous set of 'non theists'.
To them, 'non theists' are radicals.
Theism invented the crude and rudimentary:
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
Yeah, he insists on putting everyone and everything in tidy, unambiguous categories.
His pathological reaction to 'empiricism' and 'probability', and quantifying and managingnuncertainty, is all part of this pattern.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Hi Bob,
You're like my mother-in law. I say one thing, and then later she repeats what I say like it was her idea or she came up with it.
Technically speaking, via logic, there is only ONE God who is living and true. Thus all other so called gods are false gods (not really gods).
So technically speaking, any other theist that does not believe in the one true God of the Bible is also a atheist. Your god is yourself and ego.
Colloqually speaking, you could say theist/atheist in broad on specific non technical language. But if we were to be technical, Witches, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, and Buddhism are all forms of atheism.
I speak in technical language at times for further clarity.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3)
A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
It's time to challenge this absurd claim of witches are on this board:
A picture is worth a thousand words. You want to know who won the costume baLL ?? These two won it; these two did.
Of course, logically, there could be zero or an infinite number of 'Gods', assuming they were logically consistent.
Gods don't 'live'.
Still waiting for you to show how you logically derive that statement about God.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I've only recently become aware of these infantile fallacious methods of 'argumentation'.
The basis' of which always seem to boil down to 'it simply cannot be (x)!'
The 'establishment' of 'it simply cannot be (x)', is the grounds for something that is 'not (x)'.
Without having absolute evidence or even good reason, to assert that it 'it simply cannot be (x)'.
It's completely, and utterly undisciplined and infantile.
"Surely, you jest" is what it boils down to. It's an attack on the emotions.
We've seen this exemplified ad nauseum with the "The odds of that occurring are blah, blah, blah"....."Surely that is proof that it it simply could not be (x)"
This way, they 'misdirect' and unjustly shift the burden of proof away from them, by mockery and derision, without actually doing any intellectual 'heavy lifting'.
They don't actually have to produce anything.
Science does NOT work that way.
If it did, we'd still think the earth was flat, the sun revolved around the earth, and that what goes up, must come down.
They lost the battle centuries ago.
But suckers are born every minute, and if they get them young enough, they can shape their 'minds' virtually anyway they want, and it's up to the 'nature' of the individual, and natural selection, as to whether they will become emotionally strong enough, and educate themselves enough, to break free from the 'psychological' and 'emotional' attacks from theistic dogma, and family and social pressures thrust upon them.
I'm most thankful for being born and raised in complete shelter from theism and theists, and exposed to science from such and early age.
Nothing is more powerful than reality.
Nothing is more powerful at uncovering reality than science.
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
Technically, you are bold faced lying.
And you know it.
Or, suffer from Arrested Development; emotionally, mentally, or both.
There is ZERO reason to assume that there are not any number of gods (sic), and there is ZERO reason to assume that any gods that could have created anything, were:
1- Not a natural product of our universe, but a 'byproduct' of another 'realm', that created them, who in turn created us.
2- Part of some realm, but did not actually create the universe, or us, and is simply claiming ownership.
There is ZERO reason to assume that reality 'began' at all.
There is ZERO reason to assume that reality was not due to a 'chain' of events, or 'accidents', in the purest sense of the word 'accidents'.
There is ZERO reason to assume that 'life' did not emerge by purely 'natural' events.
So, go flying fuck yourself, about knowing anything for certain...
You don't even have the fundamental understandings of science, geometry, particle physics, chemistry, biology, let alone thermodynamic systems, stochastic processes, stoichiometric processes, complex systems, et al, to even comprehend how ignorant you really, really, really are, on simple naturally occurring phenomena.
You simply do not.
You would be inventing and revolutionizing things that would be winning you Nobel Prizes, if you were.
You would not be desperately trying to prove your intellectual superiority to a group with individuals who know you are full of shit and can demostrate it, every time you open your insecure, claptrap.
BTW, Jean Jean, 'logical' people, do not have to continue to assert that they are 'logical'.
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
Hello,
It amazed me how so many atheists agree with me regarding freewill. They are forced to represent the notion that they are in their absurdity by no will of their own, but God's.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
Agreeing that there is no free will is not the same as agreeing with the existence of your magic man.
It simply means that free will is incompatible with your God. Just as your God is incompatible with reality.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
BUT even within his claim of "free will" the contradiction of being tortured forever is a false choice, if we go by his model. It is a contradiction.
It is a stalker/abusive spouse/mugger mentality,
"Obey me and stay, and I wont hurt you"
"Leave me, and I will follow you and beat the shit out of you"
"Give me your wallet, and I'll let you live"
"Don't give me your wallet and I will shoot you"
I don't see how that constitutes any moral "free will". That is simply "might makes right" which hardly can be called moral.
Fido here has already given up his mind as merely being the property of an authority figure. His problem is that while authority exists in REAL human societies, moral authority is not abusive and can only be moral when consented to.
Unlike his fictional god character, under Bush Jr, for example, Bush could not have me arrested or murdered for not voting for him, nor could Bush keep his power forever.
There is nothing moral about the claim that humans are merely property and the only "choice" they have is to "obey or else".
And to Jean, how does it feel to be property Fido?
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Hah, I don't believe in free will either, Jean. Don't you feel loved?
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
We do have a 'will' of our own, it is an expression of our personal preferences and urges, ie it is 'determined' by those things, among many others. Which in turn based on our entire life experience combined with our inherire
Pure 'free will', ie not based on our pre-existing states, such as our own emotional desires and all those related things, is an empty concept.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I always had a thing for girls who like to cosplay Final Fantasy characters. Female, of course. A girl dressed like Cloud would be a turn-off.
I am fairly sure that Jean is simply a Poe, he comes on to mess with us, you'll notice that it's on April Fools day that he gets particularly active. I would also point out that a lot of his posts would fit just as well on an article on Landover Baptists website. I could be wrong, but I think Jean is just messing with us.
somebody call the poe poe
TGBaker
Wasn't Servetius burned for his non-trinity stance? What science was he condemned for?
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whip cream."--Frank Zappa
http://atheisticgod.blogspot.com/ Books on atheism