What is Jean's world view?
Offline I wonder if anyone can explain in plain English what Jean's world view is.
Let's break it down:
1) The bible is literally true.
2) In order do posses real knowledge, you need to arrive at it from God, with the bible as his word.
3) One can only gain knowledge through logic and god?
My question is, where does logic fit in? I mean... if you believe 1 and 2, why do you need logic? Logic is a tool to reason stuff out through questioning, but why is that necessary if you have all the truth in front of you?
I wonder what kind of compartmentalization is required for his kind of thinking?
Jean, feel free to pipe in and break it down in point form what your world view is. Please refrain from using ambiguous terms from either philosophy or theology. Explain it as if we were 10 years old. I think this would serve as a measuring device against the claims that you constantly make.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
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When you are high on the crack called the babble, when rationalists like you and I say "naked assertion" it falls on deaf ears.
His "worldview" is Jesus is an ass kicker and if you don't obey him you will burn in hell. He doesn't mind viewing himself as the property of someone so it is no problem for him to give up his mind to someone. (Not really someone of course, but to a delusion.
Any response you get from him will be the same stuff he's given us before. Just to warn you ahead of time.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I keep asking Jean to show me the logical connection between the 'Image of God" claim in the Bible, which he seems to say is the foundation of his position, and the rest of his world-view, but so far, I haven't seen it. That seems to be the yawning gap in his justification.
Once you decide the Bible is the consistent, inspired word of God, all else follows, including the internal contradictions in his claims.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Hello,
You must fire define what you mean by worldview. Since I assume you have no clue what worldview is, or you'll do what Red did and go to wikipedia (LOL), I will educate you.
A worldview is a web of beliefs which forms the framework of interpretation for ones experience and knowledge.
The reason why I use logic, is because logic is of God. Jesus is the very logic of God (John 1:1). Thus, logic flows from God. It is not dependent entity floating in space somewhere. God Is, thus Logic.
My view regarding God in reference to man and things is purely Biblical. Though my worldview is quite extensive. God is infinte, man is particular, thus for one to connect to knowledge, meaning, purpose, they must be connected, the infinite to the particular by a middle man or mediator.
That mediator was/is Jesus Christ. He is the only mediator between God and Man. The particular and the infinite since Christ Himself was/is particular.
And with one being with Christ, one can know, Be, and understand their purpose. With this understanding, well, one is just lost.
This is quite simplistic and very brief, but I attempted to treat you like you were 10 as you asked.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
Is it possible for god to be in the presence of sin?
Hi,
You must define what you mean by presence for this to be answered.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
The concept of God is illogical to its core.
Once you introduce anything involving infinities, logic is not strictly applicable, unless perhaps addressed via Cantor's ideas.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I can put it in a nutshell for you.
Jean Jean's morals and ethics are, that if he was the only one on a beach, and a man drowned, he would not risk giving him mouth to mouth in order to save his life, because the man could be gay, and the man would die.
Condoms that could prevent suffering and death, are 'morally' wrong.
Women are to be 'pure', and obey men.
Governments should be theocracies, not democracies.
Humans should aspire to be slaves to the Lord God, whether he exists axiomatically, or in actuality.
Man is not to 'question', but obey the words and commands written as the word of the Lord God.
Somehow, in these peoples' minds, these are 'logical'.
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
Hi Bob,
You have to admit, even though we disagree, I've taught you a lot of logic and philosophy since before I came on this board. Come on, admit it.
Anyway, to say that God is absurd since He is infinite in reference to logic means you do not know what logic is. Since Logic must start with a universal in its premise to be valid (there are rare exceptions).
And since all universals are justified by God's infinite nature, it all ties in. especially since logic flows from God's Being.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
Jean, all you have done is show us that there is another variety of God belief which is even more intellectually bankrupt, while simultaneously being more overweeningly arrogant, than we have yet seen. Quite an achievement.
Such displays of strings of fallacies and non-sequiters accompanying a claim of superior understanding of logic is fascinating to see, in the train-wreck sense.
Thank you for being so entertaining.
We are indeed learning more about a particularly extreme form of pathological 'thinking', assuming you are not just a Poe. Still fascinating, in its own way, if you are a Poe.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Basically, "God exists therefore God exists. And if you don't agree with me, you're a democrat."
“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
"God exists because I say so" "I am Borg, you will be assimilated". How does it feel to have scrambled brains Jean?
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I meant the way you view the world, and how you justify certain claims that you make based on the way you view the world. You may be over thinking this ( or not thinking enough ). You were also discussing the atheist worldview without definition. I would only need to define your worldview if I attached a label to it, as you did earlier. In my OP I'm actually asking everyone to define your world view. I'm not sure why you're confused.
ok... that sounds as good a definition as any, thank you for educating me. I would add that it is mostly based on biases. Some of which are obtained via indoctrination.
How can you verify that information independently of the bible?... you're saying you believe that everything in the bible is true, because the bible says it is true. You're saying you use logic derived from a logical circular fallacy to form a logical circular fallacy.
Ok, thank you... you broke that down nicely... I guess it follows 'logically' from your previous fallacy. If you base your 'world view' on a logical fallacy, you can arrive at all kinds of erroneous conclusions. Case and point.
Actually that sounded more as if it came from an eight year old, rather then be INTENDED for a ten year old, but yes it was brief and simplistic and serve it's purpose well I think. I just wanted it all down in one post without the religious mambo jumbo.
Thank you for clarifying it for us, I wanted to see what it was based on.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
Yay!
Jean doesn't know Greek either! I'm beginning to wonder if there is anything he does know.
"Logos" does not mean "logic".
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Ok, so Jean thinks 'logos' refers to logic, rather than 'the Word' in the passage he referred to.
If something is infinite, then it is not accessible or knowable, and therefore not useful in any reasoning.
We can reason about infinities, as did Cantor, but they screw up any quantitive reasoning, since if A is infinite, A + A = A, and A * A = A, etc.
Once an infinity gets in to an argument, it becomes possible to 'prove' contradictions, just as with the closely related problem of dividing by zero.
2 x 0 = 0;
4 x 0 = 0;
Therefore,
2 x 0 = 4 x 0
Remove the common factor of zero, and we have
2 = 4
So logical arguments about the real world cannot incorporate any infinities, let alone be based on any assumptions involving infinities, apart from assumptions that there are no infinities involved.
This explains how Jean can go from simple claims in the bIble, like 'man is made in the image of god', to 'logically conclude the craziest things. He just multiplies each side of the 'equation' he wishes to prove by the God factor, and hey presto,
Black x God = White x God, therefore Black = White.
What a brilliant idea.
===========
Thank you Jean, you are very useful as an example to demonstrate how one fallacious assumption can invalidate an entire argument.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Of course some slick retard will come in and try and 'hahahaha, that doesn't rebuke what I claimed' , or 'hahahaha I win this debate' BS.
But, what Bob points out is correct, and factual.
Why does a bear shit in the woods? Because he can shit anywhere he wants to.
He's pretty 'unlimited' (but not completely unlimited) in where he can shit. You can't predict where he's going to shit, because he's pretty unlimited. There's an infinite (sic) number of possible places and times he can shit, in reality.
So, there's a pile of shit. What are we going to conclude? That a creator of shit created it?
Fair enough. Because shit is not unprecedented, we know that it does not occur supernaturally, but naturally.
But how does that parallel the universe? Well, it doesn't. We don't know much about universes, or whether they were not necessarily always existing, in some shape or fashion.
Back to the pile of shit...
So, we know there's shit. But how do we know how many things are capable of creating shit? Without complete knowledge of reality, we can't know anything for sure, and have ZERO reason to conduct our lives as if 1 unpredictable bear created that pile of shit, even given those constraints.
Ergo, there may/may not be some dude in the sky. But, even if we saw evidence of 1, that would not prove that the dude created the universe. It would not even be sufficient reason to conclude that the dude was even a catalyst, or impetus for our universe.
A universe might be something that occupies reality, and is not interconnected to the dude's being there, at all.
IOW, no reason to speculate beyond necessity. It's often not practical to do so.
Unless you have an agenda...
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
Hi Brian,
You are now getting it. That's what I've been saying all along. As a particular, you cannot know infinities. Mathematicians, make this claim at times. But you can know of infinities via geometry since it is deductive only in the realm of it's axioms.
However, for one to know SOME of the infinite, the infinite must become a particular and reveal things in the particular. This was done via Jesus Christ and His Word.
Logos means:
Word
Logic (it's the stem root of logic)
Reason
argument
etc.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
"Logos" originally referred to "word," "speech," "account," or "reason". It has been extended, or perhaps refined, to mean "reasoned discourse".
So it still refers to "word" or "words" ( discourse ), with the strong connotation of reasoned discourse.
That would certainly strongly imply that logic was employed in the kind of discourse referred to.
But it does NOT purely refer to Logic, defined as "reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity" - that is a subset of "logos".
Of course the word "logic" is clearly derived from "logos", but it does not refer to exactly the same thing - it has a narrower definition.
For someone who has argued that words should be precisely defined, you are being inconsistent (again).
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Here is your logic Fido.
You'd have a zit on your forehead and look in the mirror. Instead of popping the zit or putting medication on it you'd shoot the mirror and blame the mirror.
That is how you use logic Fido.
How does it feel to be property Fido?
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
All methods of discourse.
Big fucking deal.
All notions of discourse, are open to notions of discourse.
Of course.
Horses for courses...
What was your point again?
Oh, ya, you don't have a point.
You just like going in circles...
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
Hi,
You guys are dummer then my mother-in law. Guys who have no clue what Greek is, trying to tell me what Greek is. Uh, could you past the absudity please, it needs a lot of salt.
Logos, just looks at the word. It's Greek, not English. Logos via word ALSO means logic. Many english words we get from Greek (and Latin).
Like the study of antropology. Anthropos is MAN in Greek.
And topology, this is land.
You guys are like a monkey teaching a victim of drowning how to do CPR on the spot. (LOL).
Just like with you being wrong with everything else, you're wrong with logos. I've been studying Koine Greek for over 20 years.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
The Greek word for "logic" is λογική.
You are confusing it with the Ancient Greek word λόγος (logos, “speech, oration, discourse, quote, story, study, ratio, word, calculation, reason”)
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
We arn't the ones who believe in magical a super hero with a magic wand seeking to swoop humanity off the train tracks.
You are nothing but a a Dungeons and Dragons fan on crack.
How does it feel to be property Fido?
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Hi Bob,
You don't know what you are talking about. John 1:1 has the word LOGOS, the stem/root word. But yes, there are carry overs within the 4 categories of Greek (classical, koine, ecclesiastical, modern). In fact, language carries over within other languages.
There are two types of language categories, indo europeans, and semetic. Thus once again, you are clueless, But keep denying it. Even when you know I'm right, you will never admit it.
On this issue, you're wrong!!!.
But there are other meanings for Logos, but I am saying that LOGIC is one possible meaning, and the meaning is determined by the context.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
A Rational Christian of Intelligence (rare)with a valid and sound justification for my epistemology and a logical refutation for those with logical fallacies and false worldviews upon their normative of thinking in retrospect to objective normative(s). This is only understood via the imago dei in which we all are.
Respectfully,
Jean Chauvin (Jude 3).
Jean,
LOGOS is indeed the stem, the root word of Logic. But it is NOT the word "Logic", in any language.
The reason why other words are derived from a 'stem' is to capture a different but related meaning.
What we see as 'logic' was referred to in the time of Plato and Socrates as "dialectic" reasoning.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
Hegel did the meta-analysis of modern 'Logic', which is the the pursuit of absolute knowledge and comprehensive understanding of phenomena, via the process of 'dialectic' discourse between ideas.
The conclusion is that 'Logic' is a 'work in progress', and that it 'unfolds', or 'evolves' with the addition of new ideas and information.
The methodology is simple.
Start with a thesis.
The thesis gives rise to an antithesis, that has an equal claim to validity/workability.
What often occurs is a synthesis of these claims, which becomes the next thesis, and so the process 'renews'.
When a thesis that is falsifiable, is demonstrably immune to falsification, such that it must be compatible with any and all other existing constants of our set of reality, it becomes adopted as a universal absolute, and is then termed as 'universal law'.
As such, 'universal laws' are not absolutely immune to falsification, as it would be antithetical to the pursuit of 'absolute' understanding of the behaviour of our set of reality.
A determination of an 'assertion' by 'insertion' of a non falsifiable phenomena as a universal absolute is the most intelectually dishonest, and antithetical, self destructive and self deluded action an individual, or group can make, and one that is counter and incompatible to accurate and comprehensive understanding of our set of reality.
As such, we see hundreds of millions, if not billions of individuals (skeptics) who reject these 'arbitrary' and 'lesser' methods of meta-analysis of our set of reality.
Interestingly, we see the 'rise' in skeptics (skepticism) directly proportional to the rise in education, science and technologies, information, and dialectic.
Even without complete and accurate data at our disposal, it is 'logical' to model and predict that 'skepticism' will eventually completely engulf the population, and render 'theism' a complete 'anomaly' among humans, and directly associated with mental illness.
No matter if one's 'Mama wears army boots', or 'Plays with dolls'; "Que sera sera"
Religion is currently experiencing a 'push back' that it will eventually no longer be able to overcome.
Welcome to the New Age, you fucking dinosaur, Jean Jean.
The Information Age
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
Your god owns you. You are a slave. You cannot leave him. If you do he will kill you. You like being a slave. You like being the property of another being.
How does it feel to be property Fido?
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog