Ask a Muslim apostate!
Offline I am an atheist who used to practice Shi'a Islam, however was born into a Sunni Muslim family and had become Shi'a a few years after I had become a practicing Muslim. The reason I am creating this topic is a few members actually said they would be interested in learning more about Islam from me.
I'm going to state one thing off the bat: Islam is not nearly as wonderful as Muslims think, however, Islam is not nearly as bad as many atheists think either. My life as a Muslim had both negative and positive aspects, the most unforgivably negative was me being denied of the truth and intellectual honesty. The positive included being part of a historical cosmopolitan culture, and being given an anthropological sociological lens for understanding a Middle Eastern history that was undoubtedly influenced by Islam. Islamic culture (which isn't necessarily the Islam of Muhammad) encouraged me to read and study, even it was eventually at its own expense.
There are parts of the anti-Islamic narrative that I would describe as exaggerative, focusing on more fringe parts of Islamic ideology. Islam, like all faiths, is a self-contradicting system that contains many counteracting elements. And Islam was not just a religion founded by Muhammad; it was built upon by the community afterward, and that building is as important as what Muhammad laid the foundations for. This is because the sources of charismatic and legalistic authority in Islam are very complex.
Because of what I said before, I imagine that unlike Christianity, and more like Judaism, Islam will become a cultural identity rather than a religious one. Politically speaking, however, I think political Islam is the single largest threat to secular humanism the world has yet to face.
Anywho, ask me anything! I'll answer to the best of my ability.
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Where are you from?
Born and raised in California. My father was born in Pakistan, and my mother in South Africa.
But don't let that fool you. There is something a tad cultic about the more religious folk in the Muslim expatriate communities, sometimes even in excess to the ones in the Middle East. Needless to say, one girl who I had a mutah (temporary marriage) with had a brother with links to Hezbullah, and one of my own cousins was part of the Sunni terrorist organization Sipah-e Sahaba, although he was born and raised in Pakistan. I was more than familiar with local Muslims talking about restoring the caliphate, and how shariah law would solve the world's problems. But, these tended to be a minority, albeit a vocal one.
I don't like monotheism and tend to dislike islam to a high degree. Being raised in a fairly violent fundamentalist environment, the dogma and the animosity of global muslim dialogue tends to catapult me back to an extremely angry place. When some one tells me my birth is a sin for which I deserve to be tortured and die, I react badly.
The death to apostates thing with islam and the obvious lack of respect for other religions and atheists in the middle east really inflames me, too. It's obvious that there I would be the enemy and I wonder why my country makes welcome people who say they hate our way of life. Additionally, muslim over reaction to perceived slights is hardly inspiring. And the Caliphate - well. If the entire world is to descend into civil war a la the middle east, then fine but I can't see anybody winning.
Having got the negatives out of the way what I'm interested in is whether you think there's actually a genuine moderate islamic position - a position that sees the koran in context, that questions the prophet openly and that resents the extreme messages that seem inherent to the doctrine and the fundamentalists that exploit it. And finally - in the long term can we live together with muslims or not?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
No, Islam is like Judaism before the destruction of the Second Temple. Moderate Islam is essentially contradictory, because it either tries to avoid or explain away its own historical sources. Islamic mystical and spiritual movements, such as Sufism or Irfan, cannot completely counteract shariah, and even if they could (some have successfully done so on a small level), they have to deal with historical issues of the early Muslim community. For example, there is no strong historical source that Muhammad himself executed anyone for apostasy, and many Muslims today will tell you that the historical context of apostasy was different than it is today. However, the Muslims after him, the Sahaba (Muhammad's companions) as followed by the Sunnis, and the Ahl al-Bayt (Muhammad's family) as followed by Shi'a, both enforced apostasy laws.
In the longterm, yes, we can and will live with Muslims. Islam is facing a terrible intellectual collapse from within right now, in particular after the golden age of postcolonial Muslim thinkers, and how their ideas failed. Muhammad Iqbal's ideas failed Pakistan, Khomeini's ideas failed Iran, and Qutb's ideas will fail Egypt. Many Muslims, both in the Middle East and the West, are openly questioning Islamic positions on the place of women, minority religions, theocracy, and even sexual mores. This, however, I do not believe will lead to a moderate Islam, like at first glance it seems to be. Unlike Protestant Christianity, which lacks a centralized cultural system, and like historical Judaism which is both a cultural identity and violent medieval faith, Islam is not a religion where vague and open theology can explain away issues. For example, a gay Christian may be able to successfully argue that Paul's statement, "All fall short of the glory of God," explains her or his inability to coalesce with heterosexual norms. That, however, will not work in traditional Judaism and Islam. And what happens when those two faiths are put under that pressure? Individuals begin to treat it as a cultural tradition, and no longer as a valid source for morals. Muslims will increasingly become agnostic and atheistic, however, they will not feel comfortable I imagine abandoning the title of 'Muslim', although some certainly will.
The Qur'an is not a particularly inspiring piece of literature. However, other literature of Islam, such as the works of Rumi (the Afghan Sufi poet who is one of the bestselling poets in the United States) will keep individuals with wanting to identify with Islam, and wanting to reinterpret the faith in the light of new values, such as secular humanism. Muslims will, perhaps more than cultural Jews, be forced to deny the existence of god in order not to grapple with why Muhammad was not sent by Him, but they will want to maintain their heritage.
However, just to play devil's advocate, Islam's hold may not be as strong as some see as well. There have been many individuals living in the Islamic world who openly rejected Islam, and their literature (and its continuing popularity) does show strong discontent with the faith and its values. Examples include Hafez, widely considered the greatest Persian poet after Rumi, who openly in his poems talked about how alcoholic humility triumphed mullah arrogance, Abu Nuwas, the lavishly homosexual Arab poet, and Ghalib, the Urdu poet who had affairs with Hindu women, and also was quite the alcoholic. Muslims in modern times have been so embarrassed over those three, that they've tried to paint them as somewhat pious Muslims speaking in metaphor, or accidentally victims of the corrupt courts of the caliph. It is a huge source of shame for Arab, Persian, and South Asian Muslims that their finest poets and thinkers were at times virulently and violently against Islamic values. One popular obscene poem describing homosexual love was, for example, reinterpreted by the clergy to mean a Muslim man's love for Muhammad.
Even less do many Muslims admit that the famous Spanish Muslim theologian, Averroes, helped lay down the foundations of modern European secularism, by stating that philosophy and religion were two different realms, and that philosophy could go places religion could not, and that religion's main tool was for the morals of the masses.
I wish I could foresee how things would go better, but I guess I can't. But, I do know that the Middle East has its seed for secular humanistic revolution. The Middle East, little do many Westerners know, has had its Thomas Paine, and has had its Voltaire. It is only a matter of time before Muslims rediscover them and realize their heritage extends beyond Islam, and that they too have contributed to secular humanism and the celebration of humanity.
It is great to have you here. I know there ARE plenty in the Islamic community and around the world who are not as back woods as what the media portrays. I DO think that most of the Muslim nations are far to politically influenced by Islam, but that doesn't make every Muslim a terrorist.
I will say this though, I have no problem saying "fuck Allah" or "fuck Jesus" WHEN the person(as an individual) claiming that god uses that god as a form of threat to me.
If all they are doing is saying "I have this really rad deity I think can help you out". I'll still debate them and call their invisible deity claim silly, AS A CLAIM. Outside the issue of religion, if you are law abiding and nice to me, I can be your friend and like you, even if I don't like everything you claim.
It would be nice if more people like you came out. It would also be nice if even Muslims who don't use physical threats of violence would come down hard verbally in the east on those who do.
Whenever I hear a believer (insert god claim here) SHOUTS, "Don't pick on my daddy", I get the image of a midget standing spread eagle in front of the Terminator shouting "DONT HIT MY ALL POWERFUL GOD, YOU MIGHT HURT HIIM"
I don't fear fictional beings, but I certainly fear the fans who act like childish schoolyard bullies.
Anywho, Allah chocolate bar.
Welcome.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Welcome to the forum, the ex-Muslim atheists are underrepresented in this forum. I have a closet atheist friend that comes from a Muslim family. Religion is a very awkward subject with him, and he has recently gotten married to a girl "back home" to please his father. I also work with a number of Muslims that do not seem to be practicing, but if asked will say they are indeed religious.
Islam is a different type of religion in my experience, and the way you have explained it does make more sense. I also grew up in a strong cultural eastern european society and can relate to some of socialistic/nationalistic values that were instilled in me at a young age. Values that place more moral value on loyalty than correctness, the fact that you have to defend your compatriots even if they are wrong. It's a strong gang like mentally, very alluring and welcoming, and in my case at least, completely devoid of religion.
Since I am quite light skinned, and I have virtually no accent in English, I usually get engaged with the odd bigoted comment by acquaintances. Things like immigration, terrorism and racist crap that dumb bigots spew on occasion when they think no minority is listening. I'm over getting offended to the point where I pity them for their ignorance.
How do you react when faced with outward bigotry? Also what is your view on openly anti-Islamic atheists such as Harris?
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
I'm glad you mentioned the Eastern European parallel. Outside of Judaism and Islam, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches often found in that part of Europe are also very similiar. And the struggles of those who leave them are very much the same.
Embarrassing as it is now, part of what held me from listening to the New Atheists was their severe anti-Islamic rhetoric. And, it's not necessarily the anti-Islamic views either; it's I felt, that when it came to Islam, their simplificaiton of the issues initially came off to me as intellectual dishonesty, and many of their elementary attacks at Islam made me think in other areas they could not offer much better. But, I always kept trying to listen to them, and I eventually heard what they had to say, and much of it made sense. I had always "felt" like an atheist, even in the pinnacle of my religious practice, when I tutoured other Muslims on the doctrines, laws, and apologetics of the faith. That is something I can't quite explain right now, I suppose.
What do I think of them? I think they are great thinkers and students of the Enlightenment along the lines of Jefferson and Paine, but I also think, no matter how intelligent one is, it is tempting to summarize a situation for the ease of grappling it. Harris, Dawkins, and Hitchens are right in highlighting the essential anti-humanistic tendencies in Islam, and I do not blame them for that at all. But, although what they say is true, the message they convey is not a suitable summary of the truth. Does that make sense?
Of the many things I've learned from leaving Islam, it is that one should never simplify things. One should never think of the world, and its people, as something easy to label. I know many atheists who I would describe as theists, and many theists who I would describe as atheists. One's self-explanation is not analogous with what one often is. One, I think, should be minimalist in what one says. One should state the facts about Islam, without necessarily trying into build to a hasty and definite conclusion. Yes, Muhammad did horrible things, but Muhammad is not really the progenitor of contemporary Islam. Muhammad, clever in some ways, I imagine would be terribly confused if he heard today the sheer complexities of Islamic theology, law, and mysticism. He was not a philosopher, nor a mystic, nor would he have done well as either. However, his followers, and later teachers of the faith, were philosophers and mystics, and did syncretize Islam into a much more charismatic faith. The Islam of Muhammad died with Muhammad. The Islam afterwards was one plagued with a lack of understanding, and I imagine all faiths after the death of their respective founders are the same. Islam outgrew itself quickly, and sooner than it knew, it had to deal with Greek texts on rationality (being translated into Arabic at such a rate that our only copies of these works are sometimes in Arabic alone), Indo-Persian mysticism, and ironically the fact that the Qur'an simplified the doctrines of Christianity and Judaism excessively so. For example, although modern Muslims state the religious texts of Jews and Christians are corrupt, the doctrine of tahreef (corruption) actually was understood by some early Muslims to be limited to doctrine. That, if Jews and Christians read their religious books correctly, they would have little to no differences with Muslims. As Jews and Christians came underneath Muslim rule, this increasingly proved untrue.
Let's state the irrefutable facts about the nonexistence of Allah, about the moral shortcomings of Muhammad, and about the fallibility of the Qur'an. However, to state Islam is a penultimate threat to all human civilization fails to take into consideration that Islam, no more than any other religious faith, seems to know what it is. The hundreds of sects, ranging from conservative to liberal, the historical oddities, and the numerous internal contradictions means it is something today, and can be something else tomorrow. The Islam of yesterday produced some of the most benevolent governments in that historical age of the world, yet the Islam of today has produced more religious violence than any other theological position this century. To think one could live at much more ease in the historical Islamic Middle East as a homosexual atheist than one could live in Christian Europe is surprising to think about, but in all its obscurantism, proves true.
Part of, what I think is the New Hegelian materialist perspective most atheists ascribe to today, including myself to a degree, is to refute Plato's idea of the ideal. Things, more often than not, escape concrete definition. And there is no heavenly perfection of it, either. There is no concrete definition of Islam or Muslims, than there is for any other faith. But as historical materialists, what we can do is see what is being perpetuated today, and fight that with the rhetoric of today. We see that the leading agents of terrorism are Muslim, and they are undoubtedly inspired by Islamic faith. Therefore, we challenge religious falsehood on those terms, not on overarching terms of a concrete Islamic entity we can throw whatever adjectives we want at.
And as Brian says, good to have you here. It's disappointing to hear that there's not a fluffy islam hidden in the texts but I guess if there was we'd be aware of it already. Perhaps humanity will prevail.
I'd like to hope so though sometimes it seems any sort of meaningful connection is impossible. Like christianity, islam framework seems to depend on conflict against perceived evil, regardless of moral inconsistencies.
On the poetry side of things I rather like Omar Khayyam. I'm surprised he did not get the chop given the honesty of his verse, something that must have been evident in his teachings and his general talk.
Who do you see as the islamic world's Thomas Paine? And what do you think is a realistic way forward from here - should atheists seek a dialogue with muslims in the manner you're attempting to institute online?
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
I think that what needs to happen in the world, with ALL issues, religious our not, is to stop viewing the world as a script, a utopia. Dawkins was right in blasting Plato's "If you just look for it, you can find perfection". Which I think has been a cluster fuck for humanity since. Islam is merely suffering from utopia thinking in the east more than the rest of the world.
I thing the age of utopias needs to die and be replaced with the reality of individuals and life being a range, Islam is still way behind the rest of pluralistic societies. But places like Egypt are a sign that the old ways may be losing their grip.
I DO warn believers and atheists who rightfully condemn Islam's fundies that it wasn't that long ago that Christianity was as barbaric and bloody as the modern tribalism we still see in the east today. It is because of secularism and in spite of Christianity that the west became civil. If the west scrapped it's secular laws protecting pluralism, you would see Christianity backslide back into the same gang mentality Islam has today.
ALL the god/s of Abraham are geared to tribal gang mentalities. The motif of "chosen people" is a strong utopia that humans don't want to let go of. It is because some in the past decided to put common law and not common sect or dogma, in spite of the tribal churches of the dark ages, that we crawled out of our bloody past.
There is no sect of the god/s of Abraham that promote pluralism. There are only religious people who accept pluralism because they water down their tribal books in spite of what the books say.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I love Omar Khayyam too! He was my first avatar on here.
I really, really, struggle with what as atheists we must do. How will history look back upon us? Will we be looked upon as early abolitionists, whose views seemed radical at the time, but eventually won out and became the moral standard? Or will we be seen like the early communists, who had accurate criticism of capitalism and whose ideas eventually did moderate capitalism, but were too inherently extreme to become a banner standard?
For example on my Facebook, inspired by another atheist friend of mine, I decided for the first 25 days of Christmas to post inspirational atheist quotes daily. And, get this, when I posted my intention to do so, I was lambasted by a fellow atheist for my radicalism. Was he right to do so, did I really fuck up? Have I become too extreme? Yet, ironically enough, the Muslims on my profile instead of telling me to shut up, actually wanted to have dialogue and debate. I can't quite decide if maybe I am being rude, or maybe atheists have internalized the taboo regarding our beliefs. But, just like it's a bit annoying when people constantly post religious status updates, maybe my atheist ones had the same effect.
This is bound to change, but my current view is that secular humanism produces atheists, although these atheists will always masquerade as Christians or Muslims, and may or may not knowingly realize their own atheism. As soon as a person reads their holy book and interprets in a way that conforms to secular humanism, they have disbelieved in the god of Jesus or Muhammad and have become atheists, even if they don't realize that.
Arguing for secular humanism with many devout Muslims is pointless; they will simply point out that it contradicts God's desire for the world. But my personal experiences have shown that most mainstream Muslims really don't care or want to focus on the minutae of what is and isn't theologically acceptable. They know they want secular humanism, because for the most part, it makes sense to them. They live in an increasingly globalized world, and they can't understand why their sisters or mothers should have less rights, or why their Christian or Jewish online friends should be subjected to dhimmitude. The argument of passion is what destroyed religious bigotry, because it is much harder to demonize someone you know.
My father told me once that by the time he came to the United States, he was familiar with mainly Jews and Hindus as villains in Pakistani media. But when he actually met an Indian Hindu for the first time he was shocked; the Indian Hindu shared his language, his culture, his mores, and looked almost just like him. Later on, his best friend became a Russian Jew. He could no longer easily demonize groups of people he knew and loved as individuals. And if that doesn't say enough about Muslims today, when I began to become more religious than him, he did everything he could to stop me. But when I came out as an atheist, he fully supported me. He said that at least the irreligious do not ascribe to blind fanaticism, and do not discriminate against others mindlessly. This is a man who prays five times a day and fasts in Ramadan.
Things aren't easy to describe, if that last paragraph gets anything across.