Why can't they just leave me alone?
Offline So I just got home from my trip and as soon as I get back I discover that several poker websites were shutdown on Friday by the FBI. As many of you know, playing poker is a passion of mine- I play virtually every day. Why do people feel this need to protect me from myself? Why does anyone give a rats ass if I win or lose a bunch of money playing online poker? All I want out of life is for people to leave me the fuck alone to do as I desire as long as I am not hurting anyone else. Is that too much to ask? Canada or Australia is looking better and better. At this rate Russia is going to have more freedoms than we have. Maybe I should move.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
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That's why I used to belong to the Libertarian Party. They are against what are described as "victimless" crimes. Unfortunately, even after being around the political scene since 1971 they are mostly ineffectual.
Sorry about them f**king with with your hobby.
Because it's time and money you're not giving to them.
Here in the land of the free, a man should be a slave to work, corporations, the tax code and 'familiy values' of religion.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Actually they were getting some of the money. I did pay taxes on all of my winnings. They should be thanking me for the money I was bringing in from overseas. Instead, they decided to confiscate the money I had left in my accounts. Bastards.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Why do cars have to have seat belts? Why do roads have speed limits?
Did you ever consider that these websites have been compromised by scam artists?
Vegas as a city was started by criminals. So no rules is fine because criminals who skipped regulations built what is now modern Vagas. It has cleaned it's act up since then. You are much safer at a casino in Vagas because they have regulators that make sure that the casinos are not rigging the games. But you would have been a fool back then to put your money on their tables.
The internet has not caught up to law so if you get ripped off you have less of a shot at getting your money back. Unless you have written that code yourself you have no clue whether it is lagit or not.
You are falsely assuming that these websites wont take you for a ride. They must be honest they want to make money like me?(is that your shallow argument) If they are rich or want money they must always be honest?
People fell for Berny Madoff because he wore a suit and lived in a penthouse.
This is stupid. I think prostitution SHOULD be legal. I do not think street prostitution is safe. So why should gambling not need the same regulations a driver has with seat belts and speed limits? Especially online gambling which ultimately code you didn't write yourself. You don't want someone checking to make sure the sites are lagit? No, you simply automatically assume they are because the people running them want to make money like you. Berny Madoff preyed upon that same credulity to make his money.
PT Barnum, "A fool and his money are soon parted".
Maybe the government is going after them because they are not safe, not because they think gambling should be illegal.
Should online gambling be legal is not the issue. Is it safe? Is it not rigged. I doubt the government is going after them because they dont like gambling, every fucking state sells lottery tickets. But the stores that sell them don't rig them even though they have the right to sell them.
The internet IS NOT SAFE for information and it is wide open for scam artists.
They went after people who were not on the up and up, you are merely assuming that they were.
You want to waste your money gambling, fine. I waste my money on smokes and beer. But I wouldn't buy either from an unregulated company anymore than I trust the water in Tijuana.
You want cops but you don't want them catching speeders EVEN if it is a school zone?
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
To protect drivers other than yourself, how does that relate to internet gambling?
They are not. I have transferred tens of thousands of dollars to and from them over the years and have always received my money, which is more than I can say for the US government. They are legitimate businesses that are still operating in civilized countries....like every country except the US. There has been instances of cheating both internal and external and they have been dealt with by the companies I used with swiftness and effectiveness that I found tolerable.
Anyone who plays any table game or slot machine without cheating is a fool regardless of how much or how little regulation there is. You will lose your money if you play honestly at any Vegas game except poker in which the house gets a defined cut and you are playing against other players. News flash Brian, ALL casino games are rigged in favor of the house.
Internet poker is extremely transparent. You can get a transcript of every hand played. There have been cheaters, and they have been caught. The big poker sites relied on solid reputations to attract business and ruthlessly shut down anyone attempting to cheat. UltimateBet had a large cheating scandal where someone on the inside was hacking the code and got caught. The site went from one of the biggest to one of the smallest overnight and took years to even start to recover. The free market at work.
They were honest. I always got my money.....until the FBI seized it. Now I imagine I will never see the money in those accounts again. Was there a chance at some point one of them might simply take all the money and shut down? Yes. I knew that risk and accepted it. However, there is far more money over time in continuing to operate honestly than to cheat people.
People fell for Madoff because they were greedy and lazy. Not a single one bothered to even attempted to exercise due diligence. And Madoff happened in the most regulated industries in the country right under the governments nose. Excuse me if any theoretical government oversight of poker doesn't give me a sense of security. I exercise due diligence even if a company is "government approved".
I don't trust the government to check if the sites are legit. I will check them out for myself and risk an amount of money I think is appropriate based on my judgement. I don't need the government to make sure RRS is legit when I give Sapient money. I trust Sapient enough to make the donations I make, and if I am somehow secretly being taken for a ride I am willing to sacrifice that money. And we are not talking about simple government regulation...they are not regulating internet poker, they tore the sites down from the internet. Which should concern EVERYONE. If they tear down RRS because it doesn't meet some government standard what would you say?
Any evidence of that? I am closely in touch with the poker community and do not know a single person who has been ripped off by a major site. Many bitch about how it must be rigged because they always lose, but they also tend to lose in live play too (where cheating is also possible). The government is shutting it down because they think it should be illegal. I don't know how you come to any other conclusion other than sheer ignorance.
No but the government rigs them and gets the proceeds. The lottery is a losing bet. You are right that the government is very hypocritical when it comes to gambling. I judged online poker to be safe and not rigged. I decided to trust them with MY money. If I was wrong, I suffer the consequences. I saw no evidence of my judgement being wrong. I had no issues until Friday when the GOVERNMENT seized MY money. It was perfectly safe, except for the government.
They went after every major poker website that accepted US players. Every single one. They were not all corrupt, there were no complaints from players not getting their money. Even when funds were seized from third party processors the sites took a cut from their profits to reimburse players. Your assumptions that the government was doing it for my safety is absurd and baseless.
Except now I can't. Because the government shut them all down. I lost no money until the fucking government came in to "help". Then in the span of 24 hours I lost it all.
What does speeding or school zones have anything to do with it? The websites weren't in a school zone, they are on the information super highway which as you pointed out is full of scams. Everyone knows that. Everyone knows the internet can be a dangerous place. You have to be careful who to trust and watch both ways when you cross. That doesn't make it right for the government to come in and make that decision for me. Especially when that decision leads to them stealing more money from me. Ironic that they did it on April 15th, the same day they steal all my other money too.
edit: and if I decide to be a dumb ass and trust the water in Tijuana what difference does it make to you? Should the US government stop me from traveling to Tijuana because I might drink the water and get sick?
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
No, I suspect that there is more going on here than you. You also admitted that others claimed it to be rigged? Maybe it works like a pyramid scheme? Maybe they pay you off because you spend so much, but fuck over far more people that collectively, although betting small amounts together make your whale pale by contrast? You are not part of a wider sample rate, you are only ONE person. That could easily be put into code. If person x spends this amount we pay while contingent on far more to make up for what they payed you.
Multi level marketing works like that. The people at the top pay a couple of people so they can say "look this is lagit" only to use them to attract far more they know wont make a fucking dime.
They can point to you and say "Look we pay out", while a bigger majority that bets small amounts looses way more money. So without any type of sample rate how do you know their payouts for everyone who goes there are as consent as you as an individual? Sounds like the lousy odds on the lottery. The lottery posts your odds too and when they pay out the do pay out.
I suspect that there is a real scam and are merely using you as a prop to fuck over far more people who don't spend what you spend. Pay off a few big fish to attract thousands of small fish whom they do fuck over.
Many people might bitch if they put five dollars on their card and don't get the payout. Many people might simply cut their losses and never go back to the site. If the credit card companies are getting enough complaints it would not be within their best interest to deal with that site.
There are also subscription scams. This is where a company selling something on tv gives you a vacuous product that really does nothing, you DO receive it, but return it, get your initial money back, but they continue to put charges on your card after you tell them to quit.
They are counting on you missing those additional charges and many people do.
If big banks with well established names can create a legal bubble that crashes the market, not a moral one, just pay off lawmakers while they bet both for and against losses, just because they have a big name, and they are obeying the laws(only makes it legal, not moral).
I am quite sure that these people who are smart enough to get you to bet there, I am quite sure they are cleaver enough to make it look lagit even if it is not.
At least when you go to Vagas, you actually have someone physically checking the machines.
AND as lousy as state lottery odds are, they still state the odds on the ticket.
You want so badly for all forms of government to be bad. The reality is if you didn't have one as imperfect as it is, things would be far worse.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
If the government is holding your money, then hire a lawyer to find out why. If the laws in the state allow for what you are doing then they should not hold your money EVEN IF the site is breaking the law. You may be a victim yourself merely as a pawn to attract others.
What are the specific laws in your county? They may differ from federal law? Pot is legal in California but is still considered illegal by the government.
Have the laws changed in your specific location since you started on this site?
If a speed limit gets lowered on a road going the faster original speed after it has been lowered is not legal.
I don't think it is as much a conspiracy as much as things change quickly and you are not privy to the evidence they have? Is there a place online where the charges are posted against this site vs actual state and federal law?
Or is this an issue of international law that is conflicting with our country's laws?
"I don't like government" is simply not a simple solution.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Ummm... because they are the government. That's what they've always done as long as they have existed throughout history; stick their noses (and weapons) into everyone else's business to help insure an uneven distribution of social power, which goes to stack the deck in the favor of the rich people who already have the best hands (I thought the poker analogy would be fitting in this context). I wonder who would have had the motive to set it up that way? Hmmm...
Plus, you were having fun, hurting no one else but possibly your wallet, which you freely accepted, which totally can't be allowed or IT WOULD BE CHAOS!!!11!!1!!ELEVEN!!1! OH NOES!!11!!!1!!
Sorry that they cracked down on your thing man. There are things that I enjoy that the state gives me the ol' tut-tut about. I just work under the assumption that what they don't know doesn't hurt them!
But again, that nanny state bullshit sucks, and I'm sorry your fun past time got cracked down on.
"This may shock you, but not everything in the bible is true." The only true statement ever to be uttered by Jean Chauvinism, sociopathic emotional terrorist.
"A Boss in Heaven is the best excuse for a boss on earth, therefore If God did exist, he would have to be abolished." Mikhail Bakunin
"The means in which you take,
dictate the ends in which you find yourself."
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme leadership derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!"
No Gods, No Masters!
Scam artists love people like you "That cant happen to me, I'm too smart"
They don't have to fuck you over as one person to use you as a pawn to fuck other people over. Thats no different than a friend asking for a ride to the bank only to rob it without telling you.
And if the people who were greedy and lazy who invested in Madoff what do you call gambling? It is placing a bet to make quick money without doing actual work, but to make the money work for you. It is a bad way to do it, but I don't see that as any less a gamble than gambling.
So you say they shouldn't have blindly trusted him? What makes you think all those people did not make attempts to keep checks on the money they gave him? Are you saying all the people Madoff fleeced were financial dummies? Maybe I would have been if I had, but I doubt all of the people he scammed were all stupid.
Maybe he was simply smarter. I would suspect that since he did it so long he got even the experts fooled. Otherwise if he wasn't that smart he wouldn't have gotten away with it for so long.
And you also said he did that under regulation which doesn't mean that government wasn't smart, but that Madoff was cleaver enough to keep everyone fooled, even the regulators.
If he can do that, I am quite sure a team of people can even convince someone as smart as you that you are not being used.
I am quite sure even you can get conned on something, there is always someone out there smarter than you.
Your skepticism of government isn't by itself a bad thing, but you automatically assume because someone owns a business the product may be legal, but that doesn't make it good or the person selling it to you isn't out to scam someone simply because you didn't get harmed by them as an individual.
Lots of lagit people doing the same thing Madoff was doing without scamming people refered people to him, so even his own peers were fooled, not just government or his investors. Not all of course, but many. And the ones who caught on were far to late.
If big banks are capable of paying off congress to create environments to bet both for and against loans, I am most certainly sure an online Casino is just as capable of making itself look lagit.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I would point out (and with information from three friends, all prostitutes) that streetwalking is unsafe because prostitution is illegal. Therefore when a prostitute is assaulted, robbed, &c, they cannot go to the police to report what is a crime (assault, robbery, &c), nor can their customers.
One of the women is in the UK, where it is legal. No difficulty there. Here in Bluelawsland, because prostitution is illegal, prostitutes are exploited. Customers are exploited, too. While it is allegedly illegal for your protection, alcohol and cigarettes continue to claim the lives of tens of thousands or more every year. So it ain't about protection or safety.
Likewise gambling: it is safe because it is legal and regulated in Las Vegas or on this reservation here. It is still a losing proposition, but then gambling is not regulated by the states for your protection, it is regulated for morals. If the issue were "overseas casinos are rip-offs," all the states would have legal commercial casinos here. Internet casinos would be legal here. They don't exist here. Because it ain't about protecting individuals from hackers and rip-off artists.
well, fuck, let's just skip all the complicated regulations and make a law saying everyone has to keep their fucking money in their fucking mattresses. then you always know where it is.
then we'll all be a bunch of "protected" dumb fucks...
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
You obviously have no clue what you are talking about. I know there are many scams, so what? There have been no serious allegations of scams aimed at these sites. They were shutdown by a New York Attorney General under a federal law that was passed in 2006 called the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006 which was attached to a port security bill to "protect" us from terrorism by ex-Senator Bill Frist. They are not investigating the sites for fraud, or pursuing claims made against the sites for unpaid promises or cheating. They shut it down because they claim that poker is a game of chance and therefore illegal. So before you go all fucking hysterical on me, get educated. The Poker Players Alliance has been attempting to get laws passed for years regulating internet poker. They are not interested in regulating it, they want it banned.
I know why. The money was in possession of the poker sites. I have no legal recourse to get my money as it was there illegally according to the New York attorney general. Unless the sites can successfully win a court case that poker is a game of skill not chance and therefore the UIGEA does not apply or if they can bring a Supreme Court Case that the Federal government does not have the legal authority to ban gambling which is traditionally a state issue, my money is gone. Thanks to uncle sam, not the evil poker websites. Legally, it is a very grey area. But even if poker were outright banned, I would play it. Those mother fuckers would have to come throw me in jail to stop me.
Yes I have been conned before. So what? I didn't run to the government crying BOO HOO, I was a dumb ass, do something about it. I took my loss and learned a lesson. You have to be careful in any financial transaction, and trusting something just because it has government oversight is stupid. I trust my own determination far more than any government goob. I made my decision with the poker sites as far as which ones to trust and which not to. I put at risk an amount of money I was willing to lose if I was screwed and used a bank account that was separate from all my other funds just in case it got hacked. I have identity protection in place just in case. And the government comes in and shuts down the sites. It wasn't because of any alleged scam. You have absolutely no evidence that any kind of scam was occurring. They did a blanket shutdown of all poker sites BECAUSE they were poker sites. It is impossible for an online casino to be legit in the US because they are ILLEGAL thanks to a group of pompous, arrogant politicians who thought they knew what was good for me. Poker was a little less clear as it can be argued it is a game of skill, not chance, so it might be legal.
I didn't lose any money because the sites scammed me, nor is there any evidence that anyone else has either. I lost money because the fucking government seized it. Your living in a fantasy world in your head and ignoring reality. Honestly, I would be less pissed off if the sites had simply scammed me out of my money than the government outright stealing it from me. At least scam artists don't expect me to be grateful to them for scamming me.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
And another thing while I am pissed off- I have no problem with the government setting up some kind of legal recourse for me to go through if a site did scam me. It would be great to have the ability to sue their American branch if I did not receive the funds promised within a reasonable time. However, since the UIGEA I have not even had that. I have relied solely on the trustworthiness of the sites, knowing that if I got screwed I had no legal options or support from the US government. Yet even in that position, the sites treated me well. They deposited money into my accounts very quickly, often within 2-3 days. When they were unable to because of government obstacles they informed me of the issues quickly and offered me other options to get my money. They were some of the greatest companies I have ever worked with in terms of customer support. Which makes it all the more offensive that you randomly accuse them of being scams without a single shred of evidence. If you have some evidence that there was an active and wide ranging scam going on, present it. If you don't, stop making random accusations simply because you apparently believe the government has my personal welfare in mind while all big companies are necessarily evil.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
1- Injured people are a financial liability, and don't generate product, or taxable income.
2- Dead people don't generate product, or taxable income.
Insurance companies.
You didn't think it was 'cause Uncle Sam wuvs you, did you?
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
But the people you took money from wrote it off as a deduction, so no net gain from the government. They declare bankruptcy and don't pay their bills and taxes. Also you didn't tithe your winnings to a church. Obama's a globalist so it doesn't matter that you brought money into USA, you took money that could have gone to support the European welfare states.
I think what is going to happen with poker is just like the lottery. The government will eventually run it as a monopoly. They are just eliminating the competition first.
Also, isn't there a way to produce a fake IP address, so if you're physically in the USA you can still do the online poker on foreign sites?
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
Poker players have been discussing such tactics. It might be possible but then you have the problem of actually getting your money out. You have to have a bank account that matches the address you claim to have so you would have to set up a foreign bank account. Then you face potential problems if you attempt to bring the money back into the states. It might make sense for me to set up a foreign account somewhere, set up a second residence and just have the money there as a slush fund with no intent of bringing it back. Kind of a pain in the ass.
In other news, it looks like I am going to get my money. I just got notification from Fulltilt that they will be refunding the money in American players accounts and based on news stories it looks like Pokerstars will be doing the same thing. So at least I get that money back. There are a few smaller poker sites that seem to still be running so I can Western Union them some money and play on them. Not sure I trust them with substantial amounts but playing with a few hundred is better than nothing...
And brick & mortar poker clubs will probably receive a boost in players so more profit to be made there. They might get mad if I show up in my bath robe though..... damn government.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Stuff like this: https://www.vpngates.com/?aid=vpn_net
They even mention playing poker. There are other fake proxies as well. Usually for a small fee per month, your real ip address is behind their servers and your workstation is set so all anyone sees looking at your internet history is that you were hitting the 127.0.0.0 site - which is the loop back address.
They have gone up in price since I last used one.
I don't know if paypal would work for payments? I haven't tried to spoof it myself, but ?
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.