why athiests and Christians often "lock horns"
Offline Yes ............there are ignorant "Christians"...but "atheists" are guilty of the same.I am sure 'cocksure' Christianity offends as many athiests as 'cocksure' athiesm does Christians. Sometimes neither side will agree this is a fact (maybe it's the ignorance of the two parties in question at the time?)
Example:
Someone sent me this website (I didn't find it on my own). It's from a former "Christian" who is telling how Focus on the Family is evil. Here is how he starts what he calls "Christianity 101" (verbatim). I tried to get past it...and well just locked up....couldn't read anymore.
http://elroy.net/ehr/christianity101.html
"An almighty God decided he was either bored or lonely so he creates a universe of immense size to house one small, third-rate planet where he can create beings whose purpose is to make him feel better by loving and adoring him. "
Ok...some athiest with a better understanding of Christian theology needs to go tell this 'former Christian' your just plain ignorant and making us all look bad.
What he just claimed is Christianity 101 doesn't reflect the Bible doesn't reflect current science......it's just noise. Please even if you believe it's chance alone or some as yet undiscovered mechanism....it's not a 'third rate planet'.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/designss.html
"For the choir director. A Psalm of David. The heavens are telling of the glory of God; And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands."
Psalms 19:1 NAS
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NO, we lock horns because Christians sell an invisible friend claim. We lock horns because Christians sell virgin birth claims. We lock horns because Christians sell zombie god claims(dead men surviving rigor mortis after 3 days). We lock horns because groups like "focus on the family" sell the idea that a woman's body is not her own. We lock horns because groups like this vote and want to turn our country into a Christian theocracy DESPITE "NO RELIGIOUS TEST" IN OUR UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION. We lock horns because groups like this would like to replace science in school with fairy tales.
BUT, you'd be wrong if you think the only superstition atheists attack is Christianity. We also attack Islam and it's superstitious claims too. You will not get 72 virgins in a fictional after life and slamming planes into buildings wont send you to Allah either.
It is 2011, not 329 or 1372. We lock horns with ANYONE who goes around claiming an invisible friend. We lock horns with anyone who claims that ancient books of myth have any credibility in measuring reality. BY ANY NAME, no deity ever claimed in human history, polytheist or monotheist, has any damned lick of credibility.
Popularity of belief or tradition of belief does not make a god real. Muslims have the most numbers but you are not a Muslim. Most of the earth's population at one time believed the earth to be flat, but that was not true. The Egyptians once believed the sun was a thinking god, but that too was not true.
Are there laymen "atheists" who don't know things like Pascal's wager or Bentrand Russel's teapot? Are there atheists who don't know the problem with "infinite regress"? YES, those "atheists" are just as bad as weekend worshipers who do NOT read the bible. Are there atheists who don't study and simply say, "That doesn't make sense". YES, but most of the ones you deal with here are not those atheists.
Most of us here have read ALL of the bible, and know more about it than the average theist. We encourage people to read their blibes ALL OF IT, and not just the pretty parts the minister shove down their throat. We think that is the best way to make someone an atheist.
But we do not limit ourselves to just Christianity. We deal with it the most because that is the culture we live in. But we also go after Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Scientology, Mormonism, and even non religious superstitions like claims of ghosts and Ouija Boards and Big foot and even the newer Mayan crap. It just so happens because of the culture we live in we deal with Christianity the most because that is who we come into contact the most with.
Superstition to us is the same, popular or not. Religion is merely a superstition with a large fan base.
You so desperately want us to give your Jesus myth special status. WE DON'T nor will we ever. To us is is merely a currently popular myth. It too will change or completely die, just like all the other god myths in the past.
AND after our entire species goes extinct in the future ALL god claims will die, because there will be no future generation of humans to sell any myth to. That will be it, and the universe will continue on without humans or and without the planet or our sun, until eventually the entire universe dies in heat death.
THAT is reality. Not your ancient myth. We live in a day of cell phones and computers and modern medicine. We do not need Thor or Apollo or Allah or Jesus to explain ordinary mundane human reality or nature or the universe.
I am sorry that bothers you, but we will not back of a fight for truth simply because people like you want to sell Santa for adults. We do not hate you, but your claims do not deserve respect just because you like your claim.
No polytheistic or monotheistic superstitious fictional friend is needed to live life. This is it, once we die, that is it. Deity claims are a product of human ignorance and wishful thinking. There never was a sun god, and yours is fiction too.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Your book in Genesis alone is scientifically laughable. It creates adults "poof" from dirt, without a second set of DNA. It creates a woman from a rib AS AN ADULT. I am sorry, but we now know what a sperm and egg are, we know what cell division is and we know it takes 18 years or so for a child to reach adulthood.
It also treats the sun and moon as separate sources of light, when they are not. The sunlight bounces off the moon.
It pops out adult plants without the aid of growth or photosynthesis.
Not to mention there never was a virgin birth. Not to mention human flesh does not magically come back from the dead.
Not to mention the moral ineptness or maliciousness of this claimed head character.
Watches his playthings suffer and them blames them for the game he set up in the first place. Watches children all the time die from disease, hunger, natural disaster and even crime. I have a hard time with "all loving" when your deadbeat cant or wont stop the harm form ALL ALL ALL ALL CHIDREN, not just whom he selects.
You think I am railing against a real god? NO, I am railing against the fans of this claimed god who believe the claims in this book. Just as I would rail against any moron Muslim claiming congealed blood meant Allah picked the sex of the baby(yes, had a Muslim once quote the Koran using that argument). I also went after another Muslim who quoted a verse in the Koran "mountains moving" meant Muhammed knew about plate techtonics.
The point is, you are not going to get away trying to equate some laypersons to all atheists. There are plenty of historians, biblical scholars, scientists and educated atheists who can and will school you on any subject you try to bring up here regarding your god claim.
The bottom line is that it requires a material process for a thought to occur. Thus speculating about non-material entities that can think, is nothing but mental masturbation. I can dream about dating Anjolina Jolie all I want, but I damned sure don't pretend it will ever happen.
WHAT humans do have and is recorded, is our ability to make up myths and falsely believe them to be fact. Instead of complaining about someone picking on your super hero, if you think you have something present it. But do not whine or complain when your right to believe is not the issue. Do not complain because your right to make those claims is not the issue.
Your evidence alone, nothing more, nothing less. We know you don't have any other than popularity and tradition which are no better an argument coming from another religion.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
What he expressed is, in fact, Christianity 101: an all-powerful being created the inescapably large thing called the universe. The purpose behind this act was apparently us. Our purpose is to obey God's commandments and love him and one another.
Now. Maybe he expressed it in a snarky manner, but that's basically the deal, yeah.
As for a 'third rate planet'? For human habitation, yeah, it is. The majority of the surface area isn't habitable, the areas that are habitable are subject to terribly, terribly inconvenient weather and natural disasters, and over quite a large portion of the arable land, well frankly, the decor sucks.
Granted, that last one's on us.
The very idea that the planet's supposed 'perfection' for us indicates design is insane. It's like saying 'gee, Australia's isolation from the rest of the continents is just perfect for marsupial development and variety. It must have been designed that way, with marsupials in mind!'
Just as it's a far, far simpler proposition (and far more logical one) to say 'Maybe we see the range of marsupials in Australia as a result of the continent's isolation, rather than the reason for its isolation', it's far simpler and more logical to say 'gee, maybe the reason everything around us is within demonstrably tolerances for human life is because if it weren't, we wouldn't be here to see it.'
We are a product of our surroundings. As a product of our surroundings, it would be extraordinarily unlikely for our surroundings not to reflect conditions conducive to the development of us.
Niagra Falls does not exist because it's a great place for a tourist trap. Tourists flock to that spot because the falls exist.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
That statement by the 'atheist' is pretty close to the mark.
Of course the Bible doesn't say anything like that, but to be a Christian and accepting of what modern science has shown us, requires you to reconcile that picture with the very different picture of God, Man, and the nature of the place we inhabit painted in the Bible. That was the point of such a statement.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
God dies on the cross so he will be able to forgive us through his blood because we are so hateful he can't bear to look at us but he sends himself to earth to talk us through our challenges because he loves us.
Any one sin is enough to assure eternal immolation and you can't do enough good to wriggle out of roasting - only accepting the dogma is 'good' enough to assure eternal life. The general thrust of christianity is typically simple cult, no matter how much dross the message is weighed down under.
If this doesn't make sense, well. I'm not overly surprised. And I've not even mentioned the talking snake, Tom Riddle.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Obviously intended to offend, but essentially correct.
Quoting it illustrates your bias more than his.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
The fact is that they selfishly want to take it as an insult. Being blunt and blasphemous and offensive, DOES NOT equate to being an insult. This is extreme compartmentalization on the believer's part.
They simply do not want to think about the inconsistencies of such a claim. In real life we call people who force others to bow to them dictators. In real life if someone follows us and harasses us we call them a stalker. And in real life we call someone who throws themselves at you without regards of how you feel about them, insecure.
AS A CLAIM, the fictional god claimed in the bible IS NOT how mentally healthy people behave. He is selfish and all aspects of our existence, are about him, regardless of the suffering we go through. He throws himself at us like a stalker. He commits suicide "look what I did for you". And when those things don't work he says, "if you leave me I will hunt you down and beat you up forever".
In real life, if someone followed you around shouting "I I LOVE YOU" , and did so repeatedly, even after you said "no thanks", rational people would call the police. If this same person then came to your door put a gun to their own head and shot themselves in front of you, you'd think that person was mentally disturbed.
The god of Abraham as a mythological claim is a reflection of the dark side of human psychology in our evolution. It is not the product of a real god, but the reflection of infantile insecurity. Our species in reality evolved to look for resources and getting attention is a way of confirming ego and the protection of the ego helps us cope in trying to gain resources. Much like a baby feels comfort with a nipple.
Unfortunately ALL god/deity beliefs ARE a fictional reflection of our species ignorant evolution. It is the fictional nipple that humans invent to falsely convince themselves that they are important.
As others have said here, it may sound harsh, but it is no more harsh to put it in these words that to state the fact that the sun will eventually expand killing all life on this planet. If one is foolish enough to insist on believing the earth to be flat after that has been thoroughly debunked, we most certainly cannot stop someone from holding that position. But it is not an insult to say the past is the past and ancient myth has no credibility in our modern world.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Your pitiful attempt to escape is nothing but a PITIFUL FAILURE (believers) ! Stupid, stinking humans! ~ Invader ZIM