A challenge for Brian37
Offline Didn't really want to hijack the thread so this is my response to your random rant at me Brian.
I agree, so why is my life worth less to you because I am not a clone of you? It seems to me life to you is only worth it if your goal is about wealth and anyone who doesn't reach it must have done something wrong which is silly because those who do reach wealth do it on the backs of those who manage to break into the middle class or struggle as working poor, who outnumber your attitude of " I am better than all others because I have more money" My biggest problem with you has never been what you want, but your attitude that your paycheck means you are more moral by proxy of size and that your work will always trump luck, which is utter bullshit. Here is the reality. I AGREE THAT LIFE IS WHAT YOU MAKE IT, but you, are still stuck in script thinking, the same stupid script thinking that class is everything and pay and status is everything. You to me are no different than the tribal labels you rightfully condemn as far as religion. Life is not a script and you, out of all the atheists I know, have to be one of the most annoying atheists who cannot see that they fall along the same script argument they rightfully condemn theists of.
WTF?
When have I ever suggested other people's lives are worth less than mine? I reject the power of any person to determine the worth of any other person's life. (That is why I said "Your life is worth precisely the value you put on it"
You seem to be annoyed with your imagination of what I am more than any specific thing I have said. I have never suggested that I am somehow better than anyone else. Nor have I ever suggested life is a script, those are your words that you have repeatedly put in my mouth in completely random threads. Except for my belief that work can trump luck and anyone can make money, everything you have attributed to me is false and I challenge you to find where I have said otherwise.
I challenge you to find some of these quotes where I have claimed the beliefs you attribute to me. Specifically, where have I ever claimed to be better than anyone outside of perhaps claiming to be better at a certain skill (for example, I might have made a claim like I am a better shot or better poker player etc.) Or show me where I have ever claimed that morality has anything to do with the amount of money you make, or anywhere I claimed that pay and status is everything.
I can find a few quotes where I have said the exact opposite. For example, to your claim that I believe making more money is tied to morality look at http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/21090 where I said,
I agree with the article that we tend to vilify people who make a ton of money for no good reason other than jealousy and it makes great political fodder. However, it seems absurd to me that making money is moral. There are ways to be very moral and make money and ways to be completely immoral and make money. Anyone want to argue that Bernie Madoff was moral? Obviously, making a lot of money does not equal morality but neither is it immoral. And his argument that giving money to charity is immoral is nothing but tripe.
At http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/28860 I responded to your accusation that I believed everyone's goal should be to make money.
Poverty is only a failure if your goal is to get out of poverty. If it getting out of poverty is not a priority or a goal than it really doesn't have any relation to whether or not you are a failure. Personally, I don't care how much money people decide to make or not to make. That is a personal choice.
In that same thread I related my thoughts about life as a script.
I don't know why you keep insisting that I have some sort of belief that people ought to follow my script. Hell, my script is more improv then anything, I don't know what businesses I will be involved with next year and I think I might fire myself before the end of the year cause I am getting bored of what I am doing now. I don't know how people do the same job for 20, 30 or 40 years. My personal record is 4. It is a good way to live, and I would recommend it, but I wouldn't dream of trying to force anyone into it. I am content to let poor people be poor, middle class to be middle class and rich to be rich or for anyone of the three to change classes if they want. I really don't care. If you are happy with your life I am happy for you no matter how miserable your life might look to me from my perspective. If your miserable with your life I feel bad for you no matter how great your life might look from the outside. The great thing about America is the possibility of changing your financial position in life if that is important to you.
I know I have expressed similar thoughts in other threads as well. And while it has been entertaining to read the strokes of genius that surface in some of my old posts, I think it is quite clear that I have not made the claims that you say I have made. If you can find some evidence that I have, show me and I will either clarify what I meant or officially renounce it. I'm over 1350 posts now so I am sure I have said something stupid but I have been fairly consistent with my overall views. And if you can't find any evidence, I ask that you please stop randomly attacking me for views that I have not expressed. I have plenty of views that I have expressed explicitly that are fairly radical for you to attack. I don't think I need to be defending myself over beliefs that I have never expressed.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
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This is all fine and well, but what you dont get and I have said tons of times myself. I AM NOT AGAINST WEALTH by itself.
I AM against our increasing pay gap, and cost of living gap. I AM against big business creating monopolies and having so much influence on politics that the other two classes get fucked. I am against our stagnant wages and increasing cost of living.
No, you keep failing to understand. "Less government" sounds nice on paper, and in principle I would lean that way.
I would say that if the people at the top want government off their backs, they are the ones with the most power to get government of their backs, by paying livable wages and by putting PEOPLE first before profits. Untill they start doing that, they have no one to blame but themselves for turning the other two classes to government.
But the government is of the people, not of the rich, or of the big business.
I hear you say constantly that the other two classes are not lost on you, but your constant harping about "too much this" "too much that" defies you.
AGAIN, smaller government comes with responsibility and I do not see those at the top giving one fuck about the other two classes. So if they are not going to give a fuck, then I don't think the other two classes should give one fuck about getting help from the government THEY elected too.
It is that simple.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Never said you were.
So because I object to people using government to take my money and spend it on things I don't like, I must think I am better than them and equate money with morality? That is a pretty messed up conclusion. If you were sitting on your porch drinking a beer and I came up to you, took your beer, drank half of it and handed it back you would probably be a little irritated with me. I get irritated when anyone thinks they have a right to take money from me and distribute it to whatever pet project they think is worthy regardless of their income. I don't care if they are rich, poor or somewhere in between. I believe that taking money from one person through the force of taxation for the purposes of distributing it to another person is wrong.
And I have bitched about the money being taken for wallstreet as much as I have bitched about social programs. Your attempt to turn my arguments into a class warfare argument is a fail. I care as much about class as I care about whether you drink pepsi or coke- I don't give a shit as long as you don't try to drink mine without my permission.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Welcome to reality. There is no way around government taking your money or my money, unless you want total anarchy. I don't.
So what you are really talking about is what money is used for. But you are insane to think that a civil society can exist without some sort of pooling of money to pay for police, military, courts ect ect ect.
And I don't care if you want to live in a mansion, just don't make the pay gap absurd in the process of getting there.
SERIOUSLY, GE AND EXXON PAID NO FUCKING TAXES. Yet my mom who is a retired teacher if the rethuglicans get their way, will have to pay more out of her pocket.
I think a BANK CEO does not deserve tax breaks or loopholes. My mom did a far more important job than convincing people to buy things they cant afford.
Our wrecked economy was not due to the working class or the poor. It was due to a bunch of fucking assholes who treat their product as more important than the workers who make it and more important than the public who buys it.
Greed wrecked our economy.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I rarely talk about police or courts. Ultimately, that isn't where most of our money goes. The bulk of our federal tax money goes to social welfare programs, the military, and corporate welfare (which interestingly receives strong support from the left, they just use phrases like "invest in green energy" but it boils down to subsidies for private companies, so don't give your precious leftists a pass on that one) All of which I have been consistent in being against.
I don't think anyone should get tax loopholes or special tax breaks. I think our tax code should be simple enough that a pothead with a calculator could figure out how much they owe. That requires a flat income, flat consumption tax or use fees. I don't think government ought to be in the business of picking who pays taxes and who doesn't, that power simply invites the corruption we see now.
No, it is do to a bunch of fucking assholes who take government money and produce no product (which includes corporate types like those that received massive stimulus funds as well as those on social welfare). If a company is producing and selling a product, they are the definition of economic success. They are employing workers, providing a product people desire and making everyone around them better off. When a company like Apple makes a new Ipad, they improve the quality of life for everyone who purchases their product and everyone who is involved with making, transporting and selling it. It is when companies/people are getting money WITHOUT producing any product or service that our quality of life suffers. And the people who take money without offering anything in return includes people of all classes (and both parties).
Anyway, my primary objective in this thread was to address your accusation at me that I thought peoples value was based on how much money they make. I hope I have made it clear to everyone that I don't really care about class, I only care and object to the growing attitude that it is governments role to take from one person and give to another.
However, there is a part of me that is beginning to believe that the class warfare that is waged politically might hinder people from achieving their dreams. In our political rhetoric, class is so often referred to like it is something permanent, as if being poor or middle class somehow defines you. It doesn't. The great thing about capitalism is that it allows you to take your shot and make as much money as you desire. I hope that our children are not getting the message that you are either rich or you must go get a job and work your 9-5 while viewing yourself as being at the mercy of "the man". It takes some sacrificing, some risk and sometimes hard work but the largest barrier between you and the income you make is yourself.
Which is why your comment that I somehow thought I am better than other people kinda set me off. I don't think I am better. I truly believe that virtually anyone could do what I have done if they decided to do what is necessary. Some people aren't willing to make the sacrifices I made or take the risks that I took and I can understand why. I'm a gambler with a really high risk tolerance and no fear of going broke, most people prefer some sense of stability. That decision ought to be made by the individual. The central difference between me and you is that I believe anyone can be as wealthy as they desire and you apparently believe that luck is the primary factor. On that point, you are simply wrong.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
This is the SAME projection theists throw at us. "If you just do it this way".
I am not you and I do not want to be you.
This is the type of tunnel vision script thinking that allows this mindset to blame those who don't have as much as others. And don't say that you don't blame others otherwise you wouldn't say what you said above.
LIFE IS NOT A SCRIPT and ANYONE with an honest job, not matter how low paying it is, should not have to starve to death or be a slave to work because people like you IGNORE the pay gap and cost of living and blame eveyrone else for not being a clone of them.
You are peddling a utopia just like a believer.
We are not clones of each other. PERIOD. And no human should starve to death just because others want more. Otherwise you ARE treating poverty as a crime.
A little inequity in a class system is fine, and is what motivates people to work. But a lopsided economy which is what we have simply pisses people off.
You seriously are just like my new owner who also cant seem to get it through his head that I am happy with what I have and that I do not want to be him. I am NOT impressed with what people own or the status.
There are 4 things people need. Food, shelter, health and love. Anything above that is a desire, a want. No one ever taught you, it seems, that there are things you want, and things you need.
I have what I need right now and I am damned tired of people like you saying utopia crap like above as if everyone should do what you do.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
What part of IF THEY DECIDED do you not understand? I am not saying they should, or must or anything of the sort. Simply stating that they COULD if that was what they wanted. I really don't care what people choose to do. If they want to sit in an abandoned house and shoot heroine I don't care. Their decision. If someone comes to me and asks for help to change their life I am happy to help and to point out what has worked for me. They can take it or leave it, THEIR DECISION. It isn't for everyone, but it is an option.
And where exactly are people starving to death in the US? We simply don't have that kind of poverty here so you can put that strawman away.
You accuse me of not knowing the difference between needs and wants, but working at minimum wage is more than sufficient to meet your needs if you are a single person. You won't be getting a lot of your wants but your not starving, just sick of ramen.
You are a great example, you have repeatedly said you enjoy your relatively low paying job and have no desire to advance to a potentially higher paying position. I am cool with that. But that doesn't give you the right to come and take money from me because you want more. If you are happy with the bed you made, you should have no reason to want to take mine. If your not happy with the bed you made, I suggest you make another bed. All I'm saying is that if you are not happy with your bed there is a way to make a bigger one without stealing from me.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Stop it.
So it is stealing when poor and middle class do it, but tax cuts and loopholes paid by the top two percent paying off government to make these laws off the taxes of the middle and poor. Thats not stealing?
I vote too, and I do not consider it stealing to ask for government help when I pay taxes too. My medicaid and my unemployment and my social security I FUCKING PAY FOR!
I also paid for two wars Haliburton got fat off of. I paid for the banks and car companies.
Yes, there are thieves, but it is not the middle class or poor.
FYI I am satisfied with my bed, thank you. What I don't want are the rich creating such a fucking pay gap that I cant survive.
I DONT WANT A BIGGER BED!"
I want people like you to stop thinking life is a fucking script!
I am all for there being room for everyone no matter what they want. I am just tired of our economy bleeding the middle and poor for profit.
THE RICH ARE ROBBING FROM THE MIDDLE CLASS AND POOR, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!
I am glad this is not China, because if this keeps up there WILL be a worker revolt, and there are already huge hints of it and people like you will only have yourselves to blame. You won't be able to stop a worker revolt here.
I DON'T WANT YOU TO BE POOR, but if you don't maintain a standard of some sort it doesn't fucking matter what kind of government you set up. Egypt should serve as an example as to why the ruling class, the people with the power and the money have to care.
Anger like this is playing all over the world. The people setting up theses ponzy schemes are the rich, not the middle or poor.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I think it is stealing when GE doesn't pay taxes that I have to compensate for.
So I guess as long as you have money and can pay off law makers that makes it "not stealing". It must be moral, its a law?
So if a homeless person with no job uses our emergency room that is stealing? Fuck compassion right? If he doesnt have a job fuck it, let him die.
YOU KNOW you wouldn't do that, so it is not a matter of the middle or poor stealing. It is a matter of people like you not wanting to foster a system where they wouldn't need government help.
As long as people like you refuse to work on closing the pay gap, and the cost of living keeps going up and as long as wages stagnate, because of the "no rules" attitude the top have, DO NOT expect me to have any sympathy for daddy warbucks when his workers rightfully attack our current slash and burn economy.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I forgot who said this, but I heard either Neil Bortz or Rush talk about a Chinese guy walking 80 miles to get a job.
Do you know why? BECAUSE HE HAS NO BARGAINING RIGHTS, because China doesn't give a shit about it's workers and that is what you aspire America to be?
China has less regulation was his argument. AND what this dip shit fails to mention at the same time is that the workers have no political power and have no way to sue their employers if they get hurt. You work at their wages and you have no say. And in many cases if the government calls you to a job, you have no choice, you take the job or go to jail.
What we have as far as an economy is a race to the bottom. I do not want to see our labor force or the poor end up looking like slave labor of India or China. All you have to do to see where we are headed is to look to Tijuana. That is what America will end up looking like if the pay gap keeps exploding like it is.
Exploitation is what China does to it's labor force. Exploitation is what India does to it's labor force. Exploitation is what America had before WW2 and is what caused the great depression.
And you consistently confuse my call to address the pay gap as some stupid call to end the free market. NO I am calling for an end to the free for all market we currently have.
So for the last time Beyond, there is a way to have limited government, I just don't see those with the power to do so caring one ratts ass about anyone but themselves. So as long as that is the case, they will eventually ruin this country and it is well on it's way to looking like India and China.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
No.
It is certainly stealing when GE, GM, unions, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac etc. take the money. You should probably check to see who is giving them our money... I guarantee it wasn't anyone I voted for. But just because someone else is stealing, doesn't make it right for you to steal too. I have big money government supporters taking from my right pocket, and left wing social do-gooders taking from my left pocket. I don't want either one taking from my pocket. I usually end up arguing against the left wing social do-gooders on this site because I don't think anyone here gets excited about defending GE. It is difficult to argue where people agree with you. But, as long as one side uses the law to steal, the other side is going to want their cut too. The only way to stop it, is to simply agree to not steal from each other, an idea that is apparently not very popular.
You mean like Social Security? SS is the very definition of a Ponzi Scheme. The whole idea of a Ponzi scheme is that you take new money coming in and use it to fool people who have been with you longer into believing they are getting "their" money back with interest, when in reality their money was spent long ago. It works, until there isn't enough new money coming in. You just illustrated it when you said you want YOUR social security that YOU paid for. I don't blame you. You were forced to pay into the system with the promise you would get it back... you were scammed. Your money was spent long ago, and now there is less new money coming in than the obligations to pay out. YOUR money is gone, it was stolen from you. Now the only way you can get that money back is to steal it from the new schmuck paying into the system.
I operate under the assumption that I will never see my SS money. I'm pretty close to where the age line will be drawn or my retirement extended to some ridiculous age. You might get lucky and get yours, good for you, but spare a moment of thought for all those 20 and 30 somethings who will pay into the system for 30+ years and probably get hardly anything out. You are getting your retirement on their backs because they have to pay directly for yours plus save for their own. On top of that, they are saddled with an absurd amount of debt to pay off that they baby boom generation will probably conveniently die before having to pay back most of it. How is that anything other than stealing from future generations for your own comfort?
I think we should cut our losses and minimize damage while we can. Pay out the outstanding promises that we really have to because people were planning their lives around these false promises, and be honest with people in the workforce now. Set taxes at something that is flat and everyone pays the same rate, no exceptions, no loopholes, no income minimum, no income maximum. I have suggested several possible proposals that meet this end on the forums. Add to that an agreement that none of us use government as a tool to take from one person or company to give to another and you have my utopia. We are a long way from that, but maybe we can get closer.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
I haven't heard either Bortz or Rush refer to China with any positive comments... No, the problem is that the Chinese guy isn't allowed to simply start a company and make a profit. Businesses are highly controlled by the GOVERNMENT, the exact polar opposite of everything I have been arguing for. I have been arguing against the government having any power of that kind.
How exactly do you "address the paygap" without putting controls on the free market? And I am confused how you constantly compare the idea of moving towards a free market as moving towards a system like China or India. China and India don't have a free market. They have highly controlled economies that are controlled by the government.
You say those with power don't give a rats ass about anyone, but who do you think writes all the regulations I scream about? They aren't being written by your average joe worker. They are written by those in power. Take the power away from them. It is MUCH easier for a worker to fight for a change in their employment against their boss than it is to fight government regulations. As an individual worker, you have some leverage with your boss because you can quit, go work for someone else, organize a strike or simply appeal to their emotions. You can't do that when you are being fucked over by some stupid regulation that is designed to protect someone else from competition. Government agencies aren't worried you will leave your job, they don't care if you work at all and they certainly have no emotions.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X