Infinite or finite and the universe, a bad tactic for the theist to argue.
Offline I really hate the Dumb and Dumber gap jumping that theist do when scientists say we don't know what happened before the big bang and we don't know what will happen when the universe hits heat death.
It could be either way that the universe is simply part of a infinite process, much like we see the seasons change. Or it could be that it came from nothing and will end up not leading to anything after it dies.(Now, of course it goes without saying when scientists say that the universe will die too, we only mean that the fuel that moves it now will be spent, much like a car runs out of gas.
I really don't care either way if it turns out that the universe came from nothing or was the product of something before.
WHAT IS important is what we see now. What we see now is that cognition is not required for the seasons to change. What we see now is that cognition is not required for our planet to orbit the sun. What we see now is that cognition is not required for our solar system to rotate around the center of the galaxy. What we see now is that cognition is not required for our universe to expand. All those things are a result of processes, not gods by any name.
So while it is true we don't know what happened before the big bang or what will happen when the universe runs out of energy and if anything will be produced after that, cognition is not required for any of this to happen.
The universe could be the result of a prior death of a prior universe at the quantum level, just like the tilt of the earth creates conditions for the seasons to change.
Ultimately, finite or infinite, nothing we see now would indicate that a cognition is required for what came before or what will come after.
Claims of the super natural are childish anthropomorphic gap answers our credulous species has unfortunately always inserted into gaps.
This is it. As individual humans, we will die, just like a leaf on a tree dies and rots. And so too will our planet and sun. I am tired of our species thinking it is special or that all this vastness on a destructive planet was put here just so we could kill each other to prove to a god whom he should love best.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
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Deity belief and religion are merely the myth of antiquity which need to be discarded by the rigors of skepticism to clear the way to improve the human condition.
It was understandable in that long ago age of ignorance. It is no longer excusable in our modern age. We have better answers now. We have better tools now, than ancient comic books that did nothing but divide humanity and stroke the egos of those who used them to keep power.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Prof. Hawking on the Science Ch. about if there is a God:
Did you catch the show on the Science Channel and maybe Discovery that aired recently called Curiousity? I cant say I watched it, and I am still wondering why. I am caring for my Grandpa, and he is fading fast. Recently, I have been experiencing mood swings, as a result. Not something I go broadcasting to the world. I only say to explain my not viewing it (None of this "I'm Dying" crap). Stephen Hawking was discussing "Is there a God". Well, I watched the first few minutes and I found it interesting that he talked about the myth of the Vikings. We are from the darker stockier Norgic stock, picture bjork oscars swan dress photo, that is us. As I continue, he (Prof. Hawking) mention about one of the three giant Wolf gods were considered responsible lunar ellicipse. I like to read mythology when I can. And was reminded the Ancient Chinese have a similar myth. I think that was very cagy and wise in terms of a choice on his part. Our brains seem to be wired towards Anthropomorphisms, so there is something about a giant wolf biting at the moon, is universally considered a myth, no one disputes it.
. Usually I lap up anything on the science channel, but I was in a mood so I watched a bit. Now I dont know it for sure. Professor Hawking came up with a thought provoking answer, namely, there was no "time before time" (he means space~time) so ergo "there could be no God". To be honest part of me finds it cleaver part of me finds it amusing. It's something of the man's personality shown in his thinking. Now, that should get things rolling . .
I have to say it's a bad tactic for anyone to argue. The more knowledgeable you are on the subject, the less a theist can comprehend what you are talking about. Not necessarily because they are stupid (some are quite intelligent), but because of the frame of mind they must hold in order to come to the conclusions they do. The most knowledgeable scientist to regularly post here, Deludedgod, constantly rolled over theists in every subject he participated in, and none (or very few) of the theists he rolled over understood anything he had to say. Watching it was like watching an English major giving a lecture to a Japanese class who didn't speak English. Theists define too many words incorrectly (using biblical definitions instead of scientific definitions) to be able to actually get what is being discussed.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
You bring up an excellent point. "Created" in biblical terms is a magic man doing it. "Created" in scientific terms is not of a result of prior cognition, but a process that moves to another state.
It is mere anthropomorphism that causes even the intelligent theists to ignore that how science treats reality and how religion treats reality are two entirely different things and the language each uses is different.
My point in posting this is to bypass all the superstitious stories of any label, past or present, and cut to the chase.
The bottom line is that cognition is not required for natural processes to occur. If one can accept that a tornado or hurricane don't think, but are mere manifestations of multiple non cognitive factors, then it should not be a problem to accept that the universe should be viewed just the same.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I always thought DeludedGod pitched his posts way too technical to have any impact on the Theists.
I try to aim at a simpler level, but you really are up against the point that the justification, the grounding of the Scientific explanation, is much more complex and difficult to get across, even in a cut-down version, than the instinct/intuition-based ideas of God.
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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My memory of DG was that he was really not going for theist comprehension in the first place. At best, he was running them over with a bus. But yah, people who are likely to end up quoted on FSTDT should not be trying to talk about science.
A few days ago in a similar thread, I observed that I find it annoying when Banana man makes his assertion that we “Believe” that nothing created everything. He may think that his logic is airtight but underneath the assertion lies another assertion. That something created everything. Wow! So something existed before everything?
Another favorite of mine is a guy from NZ who bills himself as Barry Setterfield Scientist. His assertion that the speed of light was much faster 6,000 years ago is so retarded that he has made it to the “Arguments creationists should not use” page on answers in genesis.
A couple of years ago, I ran a wget command on his website just to see what was there. I found his CV.
As it turns out, his sole claim to being a scientist is that he took the first semester of freshman geology before switching to bible study.
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Actually, it's good to come in with guys that are loaded for bear in these scientific debates from theists.
The closer to laymen the ones arguing science are, the more the debate seems 50/50 with theists.
Theists need to be pounded back into the STFU.
The sooner, the better.
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris