Do old religious or supernatural fears come back to you sometimes?
Offline Has anybody had similar experiences/fears?
I'd like to share with you some strange experiences that I (or somebody else) have had, some of which from time to time give me the shivers. That happens when the subconscious seems to take over, times when the solidity of the foundations I've built on atheistic ground appears to somehow be rocked by the brain's inability to recall memories of my more recent, atheistic self. As I've already stated in my introductory post, I have a history of intermittent depression, so would you say such fears/weaknesses might have something to do with it?
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1. A very close friend of mine told me a frightening story a few years back. He was a travelling salesman at the time and he would often stay at hotels. He returned to his hotel one night and, a few minutes later, the door to his room opened and in came six or seven people dressed in costumes from different historical eras. They all stood in front of him, looking at him silently; none of them spoke for the whole time they were there. Among them was a young woman who was looking at him more intently than the others and seemed like she was trying to tell him something but for some reason she couldn't. He was sure he knew that woman but couldn't remember how.
My friend thought perhaps he was having an illusion, so he went into the bathroom and had a cold shower, hoping that would clear his mind and bring him back to reality. He then returned to the room, still to find the same people standing there as he had left them. They looked at him for a few more minutes, then they opened the door and out they went. He asked at the front desk the following morning, but nobody else in the hotel had seen any strangely dressed people come into or go out of the hotel.
When he returned home the following day, he had an urge to go look into a drawer where his mother kept some old photographs. In one of them he recognised the woman he had seen in his hotel room. She was his mother's sister whom he had never met, as she had been burnt to death by the Germans during Greece's occupation in WWII, long before he was born.
I normally attribute that experience of his to a real illusion, probably brought about by his drinking - he's a long time heavy drinker. Nevertheless, when the memory of this story sometimes catches me unawares, it frightens me momentarily. What explanation would you give? I know it's easy when you just read or hear similar stories about people you don't know to not give it a second thought, but when one of your closest friends has had such an experience, and you know he's not lying, it's harder to just conveniently explain it away.
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2. There have been at least six or seven times in my life that I correctly guessed a card someone else was holding (no tricks involved). You may say that was lucky, but the really strange thing about it was that the correct guesses were accompanied by a feeling of absolute certainty that I'd get it right. I'll give you a couple of examples.
A cousin and dear friend I was sharing a flat with when we were about 25 did not want to go do the shopping and washing up one day, although it was his turn. He challenged me to guess a card he'd pick from a pack and, if I was correct, he said he'd go. I could legitimately have refused, but I accepted. He picked a card from the pack he was holding - I didn't touch anything. I told him I was absolutely certain he had the 7 of hearts, and I was right. Despite that, he insisted that I guess one more card. I was angry but also sure I'd guess this card too. I shuffled the cards and gave him the pack. He cut and picked a card. I felt even more certain than before. "You have the 7 of hearts again!", I said, and I was right again!. He threw the card in the air, shouted "amazing!" and off he went to do the shopping - and the washing up later.
Another time, when I was a new high school teacher on the island of Milos, I met a young, pretty woman and got a crush on her. Trying to impress her, I told her I could guess any card she'd pick. She picked one without me every touching any of the cards. I had the same feeling of certainty again. I told her she had an 8 of spades. I was right. She was greatly impressed. All was great except for the fact that I didn't get to go to bed with her; I was too shy to ask for that...
I have no explanation for the fact that those 5 or 6 times I had such a strong feeling of certainty about getting it right I invariably got it right. Do you?
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3. I and a friend, when we were still college students, heard that there was a way you could summon spirits of dead people and ask them questions. All you would need was a small-size New Testament, a key (the kind with a squarish handle, as used for doors to rooms inside a house) and a length of red thread. You then put the key halfway into the book and wound the thread tightly around it and around the key, so that both the book and the key became firmly fixed onto each other. Finally, the two of us were to let the book hang from our index finger tips, which we placed under the lower ends of the key's square handle. After that, one of us was to say "Our father who in the skies..." and call the spirit of a dead person.
We decided to give it a try, half amused at the absurdity and half hoping it were true. We went through the procedure and one of us asked: "Spirit of X, are you here?". Supposedly, if the key and the new testament turned clockwise, that would be a 'yes', if counter-clockwise, a 'no'. It turned clockwise. We decided to ask the 'spirit' what the winning number of the lottery ticket for next week would be. Those tickets all had six digits at the time, so we asked for each digit in sequence. Would the first digit be 0? "no". 1? "no", 2? "no", 3? "yes". And so we proceeded until we had all six digits. Then we wanted to know where we could find the ticket. We gave the 'spirit' various places in the city until we got a 'yes' for a particular place.
My friend went to that place and started looking for the 'winning ticket'. He couldn't find one with the exact sequence of digits, so he bought several tickets with numbers somewhat matching the 'spirit's' guess. When the lots were drawn, we looked at the catalogue of winning numbers and my friend exclaimed: "Oh, no!". What had happened? No, the number we had looked for was not the first winning one, nor was it to be seen anywhere. So what was the big deal? Well, my friend was in the habit of buying four-digit tickets, i.e. those with four digits if you excluded initial zeros. The second winning number, which still was a great deal of money, he had held in his hands while looking for the number given us by the 'spirit'. He was inclined to buy it but realized he had already spent a lot buying other 'matching' tickets, so he decided to let it go. He was unconsolable.
What do you make of it? My rational explanation is of course the 'ideomotor effect', but the way things turned out would make one have second thoughts, which I have sometimes when I feel weaker than usual.
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Now you might say: "What's your problem? OK, those things may have happened, but they don't mean anything; people have illusions and coincidences happen", or something to that effect. Well, the problem is that in the back of my mind a small door, a hole of some sort, is left open for the supernatural to sneak in through during my times of weakness. If you leave room for the supernatural, then religious plague may not be too far away either. It's not that rare that I wake up in the middle of the night feeling like there is some inexplicable, morbid presence around me, which at those moments scares me quite a lot for a couple of minutes or so. How strong are old indoctrinations and false ideas, early embedded in the subconscious? Do you have similar weak moments or fears that come back to you sometimes? If so, how do you deal with them? I'd hate to find myself on shaky ground after having fought so hard for decades to put an end to my being influenced by irrational ideas.
Spare the rod and spoil the god!
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No.
I wouldn't be impressed until I wrote it down and the number of "hits" was statistically significant over the number of "misses". People suck at statistics. All of us. I wouldn't trust myself to remember the misses as well as the hits. The only way to know for sure that something other than random chance is happening is to write it down, then analyze.
Trying to impress me with the number of times you got a hit will not impress me until you can tell me the number of times you missed.
As for your friend who drinks too much, I'd recommend detox.
When I was much younger, when "feeling the vibes" was popular among people my age, I wanted to believe I was "psychic". I'm just too honest with myself. I never was in any sense of the word. No matter how hard I tried to believe.
Sort of like religion. I tried, really tried to believe. And I just can't. Superstition and supernatural and psychic and all that --- all in your head.
The only superstition that makes any sense is not walking under a ladder. If someone is on that ladder with a can of paint, you can bet your bunnies I'm going to walk around and not under it.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
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Agreed cj. If you ignore the misses, we are all at least a bit psychic.
I don't need caller id to know who is on the phone. Then too, people tend to call at whatever time is good for them and that can be repeatable.
One time years ago, one of the people I was living with told me that a couple of nights earlier, I had yelled out a string of numbers in my sleep. So off we go to the library to get yesterday's paper because I just have to know. Fuck me! It would have been a $10,000 hit! It has not happened since.
As far as the dude who saw people in his room, that is not normally associated with booze. I should know because I am hospital certified to be able to stand up straight at 4.9. Most likely somone put something in his drink when he was not looking.
On your sense of the supernatural, we all have a trigger for when these things happen. After being an athiest for years, I just call it creepy.
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I haven't had an "oh shit" moment that has given me pause to reconsider in a long time. The closest I came in after I knew I was an atheist, was a long time ago, when I visited Japan and got caught up in their ornate Buddism woo. I think that was the last time I made a serious attempt to cross my fingers mentally.
The temples I went into were awesome and the people in them seemed dedicated. It is the same shit I have seen here in the states with laymen who fell for the woo because of the enticement of the environment. Much like a kid falls for Santa because they get presents.
It didn't last long, minutes if I remember. As soon as I left the Temples the "awe" that I felt that caused me to second guess, was quickly replaced by the REAL scatter of the traffic and motion of the busy city when I left the temple.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
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Brian, have you read anything by Mark Twain?
I recommend “The Innocents Abroad”. It is a travel story about Americans in Europe during the 1800's. In one scene, the protagonist is being led around a museum in Italy and the guide is going on to no end about how fine the old paintings are.
No way that I can get the details right but he was going on about such things as “use of color” and “juxtaposition of elements”. The protagonists reply was “I sould estimate it's width to be about three and a half feet”. Great way to cut the feet out from under pretentious twat waffles.
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When I walk up to a traffic light, there is an approximately 85% chance the light will be green or turn green as I arrive. This is something I've calculated misses for, and the only odd thing I've had so much experience with to have sufficient numbers to rule out bias.
However, I've concluded that this high percentage of green lights has an explanation. It is a speculation, but the only thing that makes logical sense to me.
The high rate of green lights tends to correspond with a long (5-10+ minutes) period of time with the light in sight. The lights are almost always on timers, and (I think) my subconscious does the math between my walking speed and the distance to the light and its frequency of change during my walk to it.
Most red lights I run into are around corners, or when my attention is not directed ahead of me for the majority of the walk, or when traffic interferes with my speed.
Nothing supernatural, though it kinda feels that way when the light turns green just as I arrive at the intersection.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Sadly to say, no. I do know that he was a skeptic to a great degree, even if some want to argue he was a believer of some sort. Twain certainly wouldn't have been a right winger.
But to the rest of your analogy, didn't quite get it.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
We are sometimes brought up in mindset of awe, subservience and feeling of inferiority towards the supernatural. We don't question the supernatural, we're grateful for every little glimpse of it, we feel privileged by its presence. And you know what it is? Bullshit. If there are spirits of dead people, they're not necessarily wiser or more moral than us. They are certainly not stronger or anything. A mosquito is more dangerous to you than a ghost, unless you succumb and cooperate. If something like that happens to you, question your attitude, are you an obedient little puny bag of living flesh and bones, longing for an ethereal pimp to take care of you? Do you have an irrational desire for some supernatural dude to give you powers, advice or solve your problems? Then call it illusion of wishful thinking or attraction through similar vibes, but in any case, get rid of such an attitude.
I spent a lot of time googling for scientific theories and technologies that may prove the material existence of the supernatural, albeit material of a different kind. I've had some success, which allows me to reconcile the two worldviews, to stay true to my observations and be sceptical. Some of that may be found here.
As for some stories...
When I was on my voluntary work (& fun) camp, there was a "regional ecologic center" financed by the European Union. Basically, it was an old farm estate rebuilt into modern multi-purpose building, with some areas left for historical value and tourists. The keeper of the estate was our boss we worked for, so he showed us around.
He told us the history of the estate and families who lived there. Something about an old man with young wife who got old and the wife hated him and slept around. The old man got senile, incapable of anything and kept a diary of wrongs that the wife did to him. "Didn't make me a dinner" or "Kept me locked in my room", stuff like that. The diary was in there and our boss read from it.
Then he went on, how classes of children go here on holiday to learn about nature, ecology, farming, etc, and they sleep in these renovated bedrooms. He told us about children who saw and heard ghosts in the building. Of course he didn't tell them anything about the history of the estate, didn't want to scare them when they had to sleep there. There would be trouble, teachers or parents would complain and so on.
But despite of that, there were cases like one little boy who complained to him that he saw an old lady standing next to his bed. He wasn't very scared, but wanted to know if it was the previous owner of the estate, or something. The boss told him that no, there are no ghosts and his room wasn't any owner's bedroom.
But he lied to him. The room of course was a bedroom of one previous owner of the estate and the same ghost showed to multiple people staying there overnight. There were also of course sounds of steps, picture falling down from a window, stuff like that. As a keeper there, people kept telling him they saw a ghost. I think he even had a priest over there, to spray holy water in the room and light some candles. It helped, he said.
******
When I was a kid, my dad used to put password on the computer, so I wouldn't play games all day long. One day parents were gone, but the password was there. You know, that white rectangle in BIOS. So I tried a few words, few random keys and nothing. So I closed my eyes, wrote something on the keyboard, pushed Enter and opened my eyes. Voilá - the password went away and the computer booted into Windows.
Coincidence? I'm hesitant to call such highly improbable and meaningful events coincidence.
How do you count a "miss"? Every day that went by without anything supernatural happening? That would be a little unfair.
On two ocassions I tried to make people "feel the vibes" and succesfully. Too bad I don't have enough people to experiment on. It's such an awkward topic to talk about.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
Since I hit the age of reason I never had anything happen that I would consider unusual or supernatural despite the fact my head was filled with it prior to that. My grandmother took me to church at a very young age regularly. I remember at one point telling her I hear someone call my name and looking around I saw no one. She told me it was the devil who was trying to steal my soul. I told him that I had heard it in the church. She corrected herself and told me it was Jesus and he was trying to call me to him. My mother and most of her family was very superstitious and believe in very supernatural like things. She tells me she feels my father's presence in her house. He died almost two years ago. She "hears" him talk to her. After her sister died she had put up some lilies in a vase in the guest bedroom. She came in the next morning and they were knocked over. She is convinced that her sister came into that room because that is where she slept when she was living and visted. Her sister hated lillies so she believes that her sister knocked them over. My mother is a big believer in people premonitions before they die. She has told me a few stories where people "were putting their lives in order" because they knew months ahead of time they were going to die. There are many other stories but my mother knows I think they are BS so I don't encourage it. How I wound up not believe in this stuff is quite the surprise, even when I was religious I didn't believe in that spooky stuff. Back then I felt god was looking out for me and if I just missed getting into an accident he did it. Stuff like that. But nothing where I felt the hand of god or a demon was immediate. I wondered, was annoyed, felt I apparently was unworthy to experience a miracle such as you read in the bible. Nothing outlandish happens like that today. Really strange, eh ? Now that we can record it and have scientist study it, having magicians explain it, it stopped happening. How truly odd? God plays the best hid and go seek game ever.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
Yep, God seems to go to a lot of trouble these days to make the world and the Universe look and behave just as us unbelievers would expect it to look if he didn't exist.
Clever strategy, eh?
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
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Right. It must have taken him at least three billion years to bury all of those fossils.
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I was thinking along the lines of - "today I am predicting that ....." - and nothing happens. We don't remember those days. Or those predictions. Sort of like praying for world peace, but claiming your prayers are answered when you get a hot date.
It was years of goofing around with it. Imagination. Wishful wishing to fit in. Counting the hits and not the misses. I would have a vision that I promptly forgot - and still don't remember - that was not true or did not come true. And then the ones that did come true or were true, I still remember. Or that acting class where the instructor would strike a gong and we were supposed to meditate to the vibrations - I felt the real vibrations, sure enough. Being in a cathedral while an expert musician is playing a real pipe organ. There's some vibrations for you. Sitting around a campfire, holding hands, singing kumbyya or some such song. Or being at a John Denver concert and getting high on the fumes. I don't like to smoke - can't stand the taste - but you could not avoid the smoke from what everyone else was smoking.
Fairly easy to do - sit in your favorite meditation position, relax, talk yourself into "feeling" the vibrations of the universe - or god/s/dess or something. No weed required, just your imagination. Yearn for it, desire it, imagine the possibilities. A little self hypnosis and you are there.
I can't lie to myself, however, and I always knew it was just me talking to myself.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
God really is more interested in hot dates, as the biblical quote in my signature shows, than world peace. He is blood thirsty and he loves all the worshipping he gets from both sides in a war (Got Mitt Uns; Deo Vindice; Nobiscum Deus; etc). He is quite focused on all the bodily fluids. War, what is good for? It puts a smile on god's face.
A while back some Christian popped in here joining a thread about the power of prayer. I remember writing that he should write down each prayer, make them very specific, and keep a record of those that come true. I suggested making it like a scientific test. He replied all huffy that he prayed for a girlfriend who loved god and he got one. He prayed for a good job and got one. And then said he would never come back here again. God didn't put him to sleep and yank out a rib and create him a woman, nor did the employer walk up to his door and beg him to take the job. He just went out and got those things like any other person regardless of belief or non-belief in god. It is amazing how low Christian's standards are to say that a prayer was answered. But that is the web right? You supposedly can move a physical mountain if you have the faith the size of a mustard seed, but you cannot test god by asking for something very specific because it might be against his will and you shouldn't test the lord your god. God always gets a pass and that only happens in fairy tales and for people who have a stockholm syndrome.
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
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Several years ago, I was working as the backup for a job critical function (handling all the cash). Most of my time was actually doing IT support but I had to work a few hours a week with the main person to keep my skills sharp.
Eventually, she got cancer and died. Then I became the main guy. After that, I kept getting this creepy feeling that there was some sense that she was still in the room. Of course I knew that was not true but every now and then, I would catch myself turning around to ask her a question. I would guess that that is where a lot of the stories about haunted places comes from.
After a few years, we moved the company to new larger building and I never had that experience again. Even after I got reassigned to the old building, I never felt that when I went into the bedroom that my old office had become.
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He's a sly devil, isn't he?
All he had to do was to put out a book that says "This Book About Me Is The Truth, Do As I Say, Worship Me No Matter What I Do Or Command You To Do Because You're Scum", and people would fall for it hook, line and sinker.
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
That is the point about religion, isn't it? If you are a shaman or magician, you are expected to get results - or there will be a new shaman. But priests have it made. They win no matter what happens. No results required. No wonder shamans fell by the wayside as the priests took over.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
A godless universe doesn't necessarily entail one that might behave predictably. You know, with all that quantum business nowadays.
Just a couple months back I'd been thinking about performing cunnilingus on the girl I'd been seeing. Not so confident in my tongue twisting abilities, I decided to search a "how to" on google. Just as I press enter I receive a text from this girl, and whaddaya know, she sent me a link containing instructions on how to perform cunnilingus! (likened to sucking on a succulent lemon for all of those curious.) What are the chances? The same topic, same inquiry, same time?
Strange place this universe is.
GET THE HELL OFF this site, get the girl and get BUSY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
See you later and we don't need the details.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
I saw a funny quote on the internet and had to use it this last weekend.
My girlfriend's company was throwing a Halloween party last Saturday and I couldn't attend.
So, when a couple of friends of hers stopped by last Sunday, they asked me why I wasn't there. I answered "Because for Halloween, I was dressed up as god,".
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Religion Kills !!!
Numbers 31:17-18 - Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
http://jesus-needs-money.blogspot.com/
Rofl. That's comedy gold.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.