"Atheist" is a position, not a fucking moral code. Just like "Off" is not a tv channel.

Stop trying to wiggle out of the same shit other labels try to wiggle out of. Jews, Muslims, Hindus  Christians all have fictional invisible friends. If any of you had any lick of fucking evidence you'd be at the Patent office and have a Nobel Prize by now.

No one here is claiming moral superiority because we call ourselves atheists. What we don't do that believers OF ALL FUCKING LABELS DO, is cop out to comic book stories to explain life.

You accept that Thor does not make lightening. You accept that there is no deity called Posiden controlling the oceans. And your spin off of the Ugartic polytheistic god is no different. Being a fan of the Jewish god does not impress us.

Human behavior is not a result of magic, or fictional invisible friends. You don't pray to gravity. You don't pray to the sun, you don't pray to the pet gods of others and you don't need yours either. You just think you need a god. You are Jewish but I tell you the same thing I tell Caposkia who is a fan of Jesus. IT IS MERELY ALL IN YOUR HEAD

When our species goes extinct all these stupid invisible friend claims will die with us because there will be no future generation to sell these superstitions to. It may frighten you to think that this is all their is, but it doesn't frighten us. Human behavior and absurd claims do frighten us, only in the context that humans act on their superstitions.

But the good news is that there is no cosmic dictator to pass judgment on us. The good news is that we don't have to base our lives on Santa for adults.  That is the good news. The bad news is that humans still insist on superstition as gap filling place cards failing to recognize that it is merely their own anthropomorphic self projecting wishful thinking in merely wanting a super hero to save them.

+1

i hope there's an exit door, because i'd rather share a bachelor pad with ed gein than spend an eternity cooped up with the hebrew god.  gein was much less demented.

  I know you're being serious about the crazy Hebrew god ( I agree ) ......  but that's just too funny. 

I was hoping you could tell me who it's advocates and officials are.

You didn't answer my question.

Why are you talking right past me? 

What? That you were wrong about there being an atheist dogma?

Evil is subjective.

That's ironic, isn't it?

It would take free will to refuse to accept Jesus. I wasn't asked if I wanted free will. I had no choice in the matter.

Apparently, I've been 'falling' towards an infinte torment ever since I was conceived. That seems like the decision that I was falling towards infinite torment was not a choice that I made, but that was made for me.

What's the standard that their G-d uses to judge? His thoughts and feelings on the matter? He's a sentient being, no?

That doesn't follow. If all things are equal, then everything is neutral.

We can arrive objectively at what is the lesser of two 'evils', for lack of a better term, using logic.

You didn't answer my question.

Neither your premises or conclusions are sound.

You're claiming that there couldn't be consequences if you're an atheist, or if we were all atheists.

That does not follow.

Our system is based on reasoning, not draconian law.

Then they're being anti social and anti establishment, which is corrosive.

Life can't be just in a deterministic world.

If there's only nature, and children die from horrible diseases, that's just the 'butterfly effect'.

The 'nature' of nature is that things form and deform all the time. We are finite in that sense, and can only suffer for a time, and our feelings about it are irrelevant.

Sure. But there's a huge distinction.

As far as we can tell, nature has no mercy, does not judge us, and isn't capricious. Nature is not consciously malevolant, which is why we can get 'lucky' and enjoy a great life with mostly pleasure and mostly without serious harm to us for the duration.

It seems to me that I can create my own little 'heaven' right here on Earth, without harming other people in the process, not having to answer to anyone, and without any feelings of guilt!

By appealing to reason.

The end goal.

Your question is nonsensical and completely rhetorical. 

That's like asking what is every atheist's DNA code.

There are theists who are atheists as well, y'know...

I'm fine with getting the last word in on things you left out.

You're never going to find it if you keep looking for the same thing in all the same places.

And that's why in my mind that would be a completely rhetorical and nonsensical question that I'd never ask myself.

With the whole notion of 'evil'.

I agree.

But that doesn't prevent us from being 'objective' and 'just'. 

That's subjective. You could change your mind.

I could disagree with your conclusions.

Moot point. 

I felt the same way.

I bartered with people to arrive at having one for myself.

It was 'zero sum' game all the way, from beginning to end.

I rarely offer money as a gift. It's only with homeless people or people who've have tremendous misfortune happen to them.

Are you one of those people? I might be able to help.

I might offer you a gift of money, or give you the gift of learning how to earn it yourself. ( You know, teach them how to fish instead of just giving them a fish)

Everyone else I give money to has earned it from me in some way.

Which gift would you want from me?

Or are you willing to earn it, like me?

Or are you not able, like me?

That would be a contradiction, which is why 'evil' doesn't actually exist in nature, outside of our minds.

I think you're wrong.

I think it works great for perceiving reality.

How so?

It's 'faithful' to reality.

Uh oh... argument from authority.

Bzzzt.

That's not a valid and sound argument. That's a fallacy.

I have my own mind, why let someone else make it up for me?

Cool.

Let's see what you're going to argue.

Where did I say that?

I responded to you with another statement.

You're not going to argue against something I didn't explicitly state, are you?

Hope not. That's a strawman.

Well, that's not my claim, but I'll answer your question.

You check to see if there are any contradictions or self refutations in the system. Those would be errors.

Non Contradiction

Appeal to reason for a system of internal consistency.

The Law of Non Contradiction.

See?

Reasoning works!

Yay reasoning!

+1

Debate that with them, (I don't believe any of it is true)... they say God is 'The Father (M) and the Son (M) and the Holy Spirit (?), whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean...

Then why concern themselves with whether or not this 'God' thing exists, if it's not even (at the very least) conscious?

I think you need to present the evidence for your claims to the Nobel committee so humans can settle this once and for all

That would be B O S S!

Emphasis on weird.

I'm glad I don't think they actually exist!

Every single day. Relationships are what matters most to me.

How about you?

I think I left out the things I wanted to leave out.  I can live with that.

To me, it's one of the most important questions if Atheism is ever going to be more than some individual thing some people do.  I'm interested in seeing what Atheism United does, as "a force for social good", but without something that declares what is right, and what is wrong, I'm not seeing that as a possibility.  I've risked my life to make this rock a better rock to live on -- I'm heavily invested in that as an outcome.

Randian "Objectivism" is just as likely an outcome as anything else, including the Jewish Messianic Era or the Wahabi perversion of Islamic Law that seems to crop up from time to time.

If "evil" is subjective, it =does= prevent us from being "objective" and "just".  Everyone has their own subjective experience or thoughts about "evil", but without an objective definition of "Evil", then what?

Subjectivity means that my "subjective" definition is as valid as yours.  Clubbing Baby Seals For Jesus is as valid an act (assuming the person doing it thinks it is "okay&quot as making sure children get the food they need to survive.  Too many people these days seem to have read Atlas Shrugged and actually believe it is a valid philosophy.

Sure, you could disagree with it, but you've stated that "Evil is subjective".  It doesn't matter if you agree =or= disagree.  Swindling you out of all your money, and stealing all your toys, is still "Good" or "Just" to me.  That's subjectivity.

I'm likely just going to build one for myself -- I've had a few friends who've built them and one of the companies I'm hoping to use to machine parts has two they built themselves.  I've not looked at the format of DXG (I think that's what the people with the flowjet I use take -- I forget, and digress!) files, so I'm not sure what I'd have to do.  Mostly I need to cut PCBs and maybe thin -- 16 to 18 gauge -- aluminum.  We may have to have a convo in meatspace.

But I'm still thinking that taking yours from you would be easier.  And "Just".

In my subjective moral code, I'm just going to take it.  You clearly have too much, and I'm entitled.

BTW, the highest level of charity in Judaism is loaning money to someone so they can start their own business and provide for themselves.  See, according to Judaism, you seem like a swell guy, even if you don't believe in Judaism.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/45907/jewish/Eight-Levels-of-Charity.htm

You're going to Heaven whether you like it or not!

I don't know of any other species that gets its feelings hurt or has some sense of "right" and "wrong".  Since we're a part of Nature (the whole "hairless ape with opposable thumbs" thing), I'd argue that "Good" and "Evil" are very much a part of Nature.

You are going to be upset when I roll up with the truck and take the toys away, right?

Logic is great when working with problems that are completely objective, where disagreeing with something doesn't make it true or false.  Like, gravity.  Gravity doesn't care if you believe in gravity -- if you step off a ledge, v = a * t insures that you will reach some speed before the ground slows you down really, really fast.  You don't have to like or accept gravity, all you can do is study it or find ways to avoid its effects.  If you screw up on "avoid its effects", you still lose.  THAT is reality.

Logic doesn't work well once you enter any problem domain that involves subjectivity.  In my subjective universe, "Might makes right" is "Good" and "Whaaaaa!" is "Evil", and I'm going to come to your business, steal your CNC machine, and tell you "tough luck".  Please present an argument that what I've just done is "Evil" or "Unjust".  Please keep in mind that I'm going to repeatedly tell you that you're wrong, because "Might makes right" is true and "Whaaaaaa!" is just sour grapes.

No, it's faithful to an extremely limited subset of reality.  It's faithful to any reality in which your opinion about the truth or falsehood of a statement, or even the validity of an argument, is irrelevant to that reality.

Because that's subjectivity?  I am an authority, you aren't, tough luck.

But also because that's just the way logic is -- you probably mean something other than "Logic" if you genuinely believe "Logic" is the answer.  "Persuasive arguments" aren't "Logic" because you have to actually persuade the other parties, and I can't be dissuaded from "Might Makes Right".  If you disagree, we'll get into "consensus", which is something you mentioned previously.

No, that's not even a Strawman in a formal argument.  It's a counter-argument constructed to show that you can't have a system in which judges and juries are the authority.  My argument disproves your claim.  Here, I'll show you --

Who does this?  The judges and juries?  For the purpose of the counter-argument, they are already corrupt.

So, they look at the contradictions and say "Nope, fine by me!  Rich people get better justice than poor people, Natural Selection!"  I then argue that Natural Selection is clearly how "Nature" works (it really does work that way -- see Darwin and Origin of the Species).

The term you need in the argument is "judges and juries ... who are flawlessly perfect."  Show me "flawlessly perfect" people and I'll show you pink unicorns.  You =assumed=, in your argument, that judges and juries perfectly render decisions, and you've not even gotten to the point where the laws and legal codes they are enforcing aren't "Furry comes and takes your CNC machines, and that's okay, because she wants them."

As judged by whom?  Judges and juries?  Circular argument.

As judged by WHOM?  You've constructed a circular argument  which is dependent on the very people who are the problem with the system.

Never let a 9 year old with a bible think.  It turns them into a completely unbearable child who goes off and tells their father that G-d doesn't have a penis =and= is willing to back that up with scripture.

I was insufferable.

I'm on a roll now.

No, "they" don't.  Christians do.  That's a very Christian position on the nature of the Divine which is shared with very, very few other religions.

Is Gravity conscious?  Is Gravity sentient?  Does gravity, which isn't conscious or sentient, care if you believe or don't believe in it?  Will gravity smack you upside the head when you ignore it?

I suspect the Nobel committee has had more than it's fair share of Jews going through the place.  We're 2 parts in a thousand of the world's population, but 1 part in 5 of the winners of that little award.  You think the Nobel committee doesn't know what we think?!?

Kid's in college and having dinner with the future father-in-law.  If I get lucky, we'll hook up before the weekend is out -- he's discovered "college is hard."  Duh.

Later today I'm doing turkey with my adopted family (both parents are deceased -- old age does that) that's made up of people who aren't related, but care lots about each other.  I'm "Aunt" to more children than I can shake a stick at.  I'm too old for them to call me "Mommy RealFirstName" because I'm closer to grandmother age than mother age.

But for now -- I need to do all the chores and everything else that was neglected because I fell asleep on the sofa with the TeeVee turned on.