Maybe if we could convince them to raise the stakes
Offline It just occurred to me that the overwhelming majority of Christians (in particular) really, really, really don't have any proper critical thinking skills, nor the actual strength of their convictions.
It should not be considered a myth or a fallacy anymore, because it's a fact.
We can reject their premises because they are complete fallacies.
This is why we have so many former theists becoming atheists. This is why there are so many atheists worldwide. We're closing in on 1 billion self declared atheists, according to some stats.
Christians really haven't staked anything they valued much by 'hoping' there is a Sky Daddy who loves them.
Imagine if they would agree to jumping into an active volcano if they failed in a logical debate with atheists in defending the 'truth' of their god.
I think it would be a 'win/win' situation if we could get them to agree with those stakes.
They get to be with Jebus sooner, and we sort the wheat from the chaff and get those that really never believed, to concede and profess their atheism so we could move past these myths and legends and agree that they will only deal with reality in a proper logical and scientific manner.
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
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I think they would have to be pushed in order to get into heaven. That makes it so much more fun.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
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I knew there was a reason why I sucked at Christianity at such a young age. I asked too many god damned questions.
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
That's very true. As a former christian myself, I can't believe how brainwashed I was. As soon as you start asking questions, you are labeled a backslider/doubter or even possessed by a demon/spirit of doubt!
There's no room allowed for any critical thinking.
It takes a lot of humility to admit that. I admire all the ex theists that openly admit that.
This should be classified as psychological and emotional abuse of children.
Children are individuals. They do not belong to their parents. They are not their property to use and abuse as they wish.
I can't believe that in the 21st century institutions like this are still allowed to do this, and be allowed to prescribe that parents do this, as well as other prescriptions on self esteem and sexual issues.
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
"I can't believe that in the 21st century institutions like this are still allowed to do this, and be allowed to prescribe that parents do this, as well as other prescriptions on self esteem and sexual issues."
True. Just read brilliant piece (An Atheist Manifesto) by Sam Harris, posted on RSS. Interestingly, he talks about how politicians uses religion to further their own agendas.
I also find it mind-boggling that people can allow this situation to continue. It's probably because the church knows how to play on people's emotional vulnerabilities and self-confessed shortcomings. They profess not to judge you and offer a safe haven where you are surrounded by loving people, governed by a god who cares for you.
I hate to disappoint you with arrogance: while some theistic/nonsecular advertisements did draw me as a child towards whatever fucked up message they had -Lutherans, Ethiopian Christians, Zoroastrians, Sikhs, Taoists, Neo-Confucianism, and even that "Jedi" religion that popped up in an early 80s British survey of some sort- it didn't hold weight in my brain because there was no living, breathing guide to follow these ("hokey" ) religions and schools of philisophy. By my teens (mid to late 90s), I was convinced in the same things Dawkins no doubt preached at that time, but I also had this thing called "woo" which I didn't even need a tour guide for. This was a different kind of "woo". This was escapist, do-it-yourself "woo"*. I eventually lost my interest in that as well, as I learned a more productive outlet for it: personal fantasy. A near-perfect way to anticipate a person's next action, or how they'll react to something I do. I now have a method to socialize, and even manipulate people towards a desired outcome. Usually a selfish one. I've started to "unlearn!" being so self-centered (before even getting to RRS), but doing so is difficult because being selfish, in my case... is a survival skill.
Nonsecular bullshit just hasn't held a lot of sway on me.
*I feel the need to point out I wasn't psychotic during this timeframe
“A meritocratic society is one in which inequalities of wealth and social position solely reflect the unequal distribution of merit or skills amongst human beings, or are based upon factors beyond human control, for example luck or chance. Such a society is socially just because individuals are judged not by their gender, the colour of their skin or their religion, but according to their talents and willingness to work, or on what Martin Luther King called 'the content of their character'. By extension, social equality is unjust because it treats unequal individuals equally.” "Political Ideologies" by Andrew Heywood (2003)
Not even close to being a good idea. First off, the theist, pick any label, depends on the grease of credulity to oil the pig of their arguments. It allows them to back peddle, so no matter what you do, they will make an "out" even if there really isn't one.
It would be like if atheists and Christians were in the Super Bowl, and when they didn't get the first down, they would claim they already got pasted the goal line, when the reality would be that they were still on their own one yard line.
Problem is that theism never gets past the pre season.
It simply amounts that even outside the issue of religion, if one wants to believe something badly enough, it makes them a tougher nut to crack.
I once wanted to believe so badly, when I was a teen, pining after a girl in my church, that if I just showed her how "in love" I was with her, she would like me. That delusion caused me to waste so much time. And it set me up for needless pain I caused myself when I got rejected.
Theism works because all it takes is willfully ignoring contradictions and scientific absurdities. Once you swallow "all powerful" and "I can do what I want", in their mind, it is justified no matter what.
Once you believe the moon is made of cheese, and want to believe it so badly, anyone pointing to you that that is not the case, you are going to pull the most absurd delusional mental gymnastics to prop it up.
They wouldn't jump into the volcano because they already "know" a god exists. Despite the fact that there is no such thing as a non-material invisible magical super hero in the sky.
The formula for theism goes like this.
Naked assertion=Credulity+Poof=Delusion
I know Christianity is what we deal with most because we live in a Christian majority. But all religions need to be treated equally because they all rely on the fuel of willful ignorance.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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I think we'd have to stay away from televised debates if this suggestion were implemented. Or risk losing a few scientists that never realised just how fucked up religious belief can be before being shocked into silence by extremely ridiculous claims and arguments.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
People should look at this website if they want to learn what religion does in todays society. Religion is raising a society of enemies. I wouldn't be here if I didn't personally know the pain that religion causes. My purpose is to shield other kids from that pain. And to do so... we must convince adults to give up their myths, or at least not brainwash their kids with them (not easy to do when you are brainwashed yourself).
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Seems pointless to me. Any Christian who would agree to such a thing would never admit, even to themselves, that they didn't win a debate.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
I thought God was pretty 'unchanging' about bearing false witness being a major sin 'against' God.
But maybe not.
It seems like a pretty willy nilly understanding they've got going on there. One minute their God is firm on what sin is, the next is that sin is no big deal as long as you stop reasoning and simply follow a blind faith.
What if there's another revelation from God?
The goal posts seem to move...lol
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris
Since when have they ever followed the ten commandments? Lol. Do you see the entire country shutting down on Sundays? I don't.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
Well, I don't see a lot of Christian behaviour in the supposed 'Christian' nation of America either (ever been to 'Spring Break' in FLA) lmao..., but that's not the point I was getting at.
I was just pointing out how their God clearly contradicts himself.
He's not 'just' if he's 'merciful' to sinners.
He's just got his own personal preferences...
I keep asking myself " Are they just playin' stupid, or are they just plain stupid?..."
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy" : David Brooks
" Only on the subject of God can smart people still imagine that they reap the fruits of human intelligence even as they plow them under." : Sam Harris