Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

Things that don't begin to exist can't cause anything.

God has caused more violence, evil and hatred than any human.

Therefore God began to exist.

Therefore God had a cause.

+++

Poorly specified and designed information always requires an unintelligent message sender

All living organism have poorly specified and designed information

Therefore the poorly specified and designed information was generated by an unintelligent message sender.

+++

The difference between your arguments and mine? Mine have been observed and shown to be correct.

Where is my proof that you made up the statement of atheist axioms? Atheists have no axioms concerning their atheism.

"What does science have to do with you being irrational?" 

You have a poor grasp of science. That poor grasp of science leads you to believe that those who disagree with you and don't fellate your God are irrational. 

Go forth and learn something.

Wrong on all counts.

Complexity of something does not need consciousness. A piece of driftwood is moved by the ocean and lands on the beach, insects take it over creating a complex environment by creating elaborate tunnels. Some used to store food, others to store eggs and others to simply get out of the weather. All that complexity starts from a non cognitive ocean moving a non cognitive piece of wood. There you have complexity arising from a non cognitive process.

Do you really want us to believe that there is a magic puppeteer controlling every atom and every quark in the universe via "poof".  If so, you don't need the god of Abraham to claim that. You could say that a magical unicorn did it, or Thor, or Neptune or the Egyptian sun god Ra.

Individual atoms are simple structures. The sun is made of atoms and even has a complex weather system, yet you don't believe the sun thinks like a human being.

The only thing "complex" about believers arguments is their ability to dress the empty box up with their mental pretty bows.

The reality is that god/deity/super natural belief exists as an unfortunate side affect of a natural flaw in evolution. You are merely mentally trying to replace your parents an ignore your finite existence. ALL god/deity/super natural belief is merely the evolutionary flaw of gap filling out of ignorance.

Evolution does not require us to get the nature of reality right or wrong, it's only goal is to get to the point of reproduction. If a placebo creates safety in numbers, no matter how false the belief may be, it can work to get the group to reproduction.

The Egyptians were successful as a group for 3,000 years and centered their success around the false belief that the sun was a thinking entity. You are NOT doing anything differently.

Biological life and the universe DO NOT need a consciousness as a cause. All this is a product of a "what" not a "who". Just like there is no ocean god who thinks about making hurricanes. Hurricanes start as smaller parts in the form of temperature and pressure changes and slowly build up into the complex eye we call a hurricane.

I think it was Bob Spence that pointed out that causes don't need to be 'greater' than their effects...

An avalanche can be precipitated by a single dislodged pebble.

A single match can cause a forest fire that consumes square miles of land.

A human being is caused by two individual cells sharing chemicals...

Is it so hard to grasp that a universe could be caused by a minute fluctuation in quantum scaled values?

LC >;-}>

You got that backwards.

You already have proven your ignorance of science and logic. Repeating yourself isn't going to change anything.

We cant prove anything that exists outside our heads? What did you type this tripe on? Funny that you and I both type on something "we cant prove exists".I can give you a 4 win and 9 loss season, so far, outside you and me that proves the Redskins suck.

I am sorry, this is as silly as saying "If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" The laws of nature and physics still exist. The sound will exist, because of the laws of nature. Just like you cant hear someone talking in Japan doesn't mean the entire population is silent because you cant hear them.

Schrodinger's cat is mental masturbation, not empirical testing and falsification. It was meant as a thought exorcise. You fail to take into account probability and conditions at the moment. If we can't prove what is outside our own heads, then as you read this, my penis is literally turning into an orange right now. You cant see my penis and oranges exist, and because of quantum mechanics, it must be possible.

The earth was around before we were born and it will be here after we die. And it still would have been even if we had never been born.

Since God doesn't exist how can a non-existent being cause violence, evil and hatred?

Holy crap, boy did you miss the point. If you jumped off a cliff in the Grand Canyon, you'd still miss the Grand Canyon. Please don't try that at home.

Seriously though, we do not believe in non-existent beings. We are simply addressing the CLAIMS of the people who buy these claims. We are addressing the god character like a book critic in a newspaper or movie critic in a news paper.

As a written character, the god of Abraham is a nasty fuck, He uses threats and bribes to keep you in line and is willing to throw dissenters into an eternal torture chamber, even if their only crime is not wanting to hang out with him. Try reading your bible as if you never heard of it. It reads like a gang manual. It teaches you to enslave your mind to bow to authority, not through consent of the governed, but through "might makes right".

God as written does not have to listen to our concerns. He can do whatever we wants and does what he wants, AS A character. His actions AS A CHARACTER are selective and arbitrary and the fans of this fictional character chalk it up to "poof" and " he can do what he wants".

Outside that book in reality, gods do not exist and humans are not gods themselves. There are simply a species which a majority still likes the idea of a fictional super hero saving them,

The good and bad humans have done in our species evolution, and the good and bad we still do today, are a result of nature, not a man with a beard and magic wand, or a devil with a pitchfork re-arranging the neurons in your brain trying to get you to do bad things.

Seriously, if you truly want to know how absurd your book is, put it next to a copy of Harry Potter. Swap reading pages one at a time. What you will find is morals exist in both, nasty things happen in both, and fantastic claims are made in both. The only difference is that one is accepted as fiction and the other is not. But both ARE fiction.

Individuals and entire groups and entire nations do harm to others because of a lack of resources or a false sense of a threat. There is no magic to life and no need for a god to explain the good or bad that happen in life.

Lee, there is no such thing as a magical invisible super brain with a magic wand. There never was or ever will be a "chosen people". There is just you wanting a super hero. It is all in your head, nothing more. You could worship Yoda and try to argue that the Force  is real and you'd be doing the same thing.

Thoughts require a material process. Evolution is the only thing that has produced consciousness. There is no such thing as a consciousness existing outside evolution.

You accept that the sun is not a thinking being like the Egyptians once falsely believed. It should not be that much of a stretch to accept that like their wishful thinking, you are NOT doing anything differently.

Try understanding WHY you reject all other god claims besides your own. The only difference between you and I is that I reject one more pet god claim than you do.

The bible is not a science textbook. It bases it's morality on ancient societies that valued tribalism and dictatorships. It values absolute power in the autocratic character of God. It values slavery and sexism and values the slaughter of dissent merely for the act of dissent, even if it is non violent objection.

It is neither a good moral book in its entire collective motif as a story line, and most certainly not anywhere close to being a science textbook.

Your god belief is merely YOU and the evolutionary flaw of gap filling in the form of a placebo in the attempt to replace your parents and ignore your finite existence. You are NOT doing anything differently than the Ancient Egyptians, or even Muslims or Hindus or claimants of Big Foot do today.

Humans are notorious for making up and believing false claims. THAT is all you are doing. You have merely fallen for your own emotions and credulity.  You are not special and your pet god claim is not special either.

You know exactly what I was asking. Since you know God doesn't exist how can He cause violence, evil and hatred.

AND since all three major fans of the three  big comic books do this, please tell me why you don't buy the claims of Muslims or Jewish gods.

Now please don't say "they are all the same god". I agree, all of them stem from the same comic books and are mere spin offs.

If they are all the same god then you could be Jewish or Muslim and it would not matter.

The truth is that ALL OF YOU got it wrong and are basing your morals and reality on fantasy.

If you are unwilling to become a Muslim when they try to claim science backs up the Koran and by proxy proves the existence of Allah, then you should easily be able to understand why I reject this tactic coming from you as well.

We've addressed this. But for the ADD afflicted I'll try again.

We cannot hate your god any more than we can hate Mickey Mouse or Lex Luthor. We hate the fact that humans falsely go around claiming non-existent beings. Just like YOU would be right to hate it if someone was still insisting that the earth was flat.

AS A WRITTEN CHARACTER ONLY and as a piece of horribly written literature at that, we view the bible and the character of the bible much like a movie or book critic writes about a bad movie or bad book.

From page one to the last page the bible makes absurd claims about the nature of reality. It has a head character who stalks you, you have no privacy or autonomy from him. And is willing to torture you forever, even if your mere crime is not wanting to be a member of his club. The bible has no plot development and ends in an orgy of violence where all outsiders are thrown in the garbage like trash. And the only point of that book is for the god to get you to kiss his ass forever.

The God of the bible DOES NOT reflect our western pluralistic values. You cannot leave him, like you can leave a job you don't like. You cannot vote this god out of office. You cannot impeach him or replace him. He only gets involved when he wants and we have no say about the game he set up.

In real life outside that work of fiction, we have a say. We value dissent. We value our privacy and have privacy to a much greater extent than to that of an "all seeing god" who even watches when you have sex or pee. Remember that the next time you are naked.

In real life we can have our politicians removed from office, or even arrested if they commit a crime. We can have our judges and cops arrested if they commit a crime. If we don't like the laws we have we can work through the system WE set up to change the system WE set up.

As a motif the god character is everything modern secular society is not.

Our objections are to the CLAIMS and concepts, not to any real god. Just like I would object to someone claiming they could fix my car merely by waving a feather boa over the hood of the car.

Consider us book critics. I've read good fiction and bad fiction. The bible is the worst piece of literature humans have ever inflicted themselves with. It is the worst myth ever sold.

NOW before you stupidly claim bigotry and hate. My words are harsh, true. But it is merely cold water on your face in order to snap you out of your delusion. Much like the Church had to let go of believing the earth was flat. Much like you don't believe the sun is a god.

Well, I hope for his sake, someday, he, and more and more people of all walks of life,  stop banging their heads trying to defend a myth. It feels much better when you stop doing that.

It takes much more effort to defend a myth than it does to accept reality. And it feels soooooo much better when you stop doing that.

He doesn't want to see, like most believers, that reality is much more filling even with the bad that happens in life. He doesn't want to accept that his god only exists because of his imagination. I hope for his sake he figures that out some day.

Google comes up with nothing. You either invented that phrase yourself, or you took an actual phrase and misplaced/thesaurus'd/rearranged some of the words used. /insertae_sedis

Since I have frequent delusions of reference (which I simply ignore most of the time), I am certainly not 100% rational. Yes, as vastet pointed out... emotions fuck with rationality. If you've ever had first-hand or second-hand experience with steroid-induced psychosis, overabundant cortisol levels (emotional stress), hypogonadism/andropause/menopause along with HRT, "neurosis" (inability to functionally process certain neurotransmitters, at least from my limited personal experience) and/or most mood disorders, phobias, behavior while under the effects of withdrawal, and behavior while after the intensive use of deliriants... you have an idea of how easily human rationality can be crippled without being affected by any 'direct external force' (things such as pain, generalized emotional distress, dehydration, electrolyte imbalance, amnesia, psychosis partially derived from 'personality', and various types of dementia.)

To give an example of both an internal and external source of irrationality using one of my delusions of reference as a starting point, I offer Prozacdeathwish's Disturbia Mouse avatar. Not too long ago, I was likely suffering an anion gap or other dehydration/electrolyte-related health problem, and my cognitive processes also suffered as a result. This type of image is one that will 'offer' my mild delusions a feeding frenzy while I am disoriented. Most times, I'd just shrug it off. This time, I thought PDW was giving a passive suggestion to "Get the hell out!"

I ended up a half-inch away from taking it rather literally. Thankfully, my superfan and atheist tags were not removed as I suggested to the person in charge of this site. They are of entirely symbolic value anyhow, and I could easily lose them for enjoying pestering/harassing the modmins too much. I could also lose them for being too much of a useless asshole, with that being something I don't care to risk.

I don't "need" them.

I don't "NEED" food, I don't "NEED" water, I don't "NEED" a sort of 'cosmic formation', I don't "NEED" life, I don't "NEED" liberty, and I don't need anything resembling gratification.

I choose these things from my own, basic cognizance. I can also suppress a drive for appetite out of a combination of minimal mental stress and having a disease that limits appetite from sodium loss. I like pain sometimes, just to enjoy the highly effective means through I can supress my brain's ability to process negative psychological signals, and develop increased tolerance.

The one fire ant sting I managed to get, previously, did not adequately satisfy this need. It only itched. The red wasp sting I got on my right hand at 8, however, was quite the pleasant non-lethal gift. It felt like any ultra-thin syringe does at the age (likely didn't exist yet), yet 5-10 seconds later my right ring finger briefly felt like someone had taken a hammer to it. So... throbbing, nearly agonizing pain for a minute or two, and with my friends/classmates surrounding me... I didn't dare shed a tear over it. You might say I felt magnanimous afterwards for not having done so... instead, merely gasping in pain, grinding my teeth nonstop and grappling my somewhat larger wrist. When most of the pain finally subsided... I fended off teachers and students trying to play a game of "invade your space". Yes, even the well-meaning classmates and grownups. Several minutes after that one sting... I didn't feel much (numbness) but I noticed my hand had changed glove sizes a bit. I felt anxious for the rest of the school day and later on (I don't know how much time later) I recall "Thank god you didn't  get stung on the neck like your (step-relative) did back in... (date/place.)"

Despite all that pride in my own 'unique' abilities to suppress emotion and mental input... I couldn't be bothered to buy into my family's supply of junkthought as a prepubescent child and could only be bothered to rethink my life views under the effects of a steroid known to heavily alter the psyche of anyone taking it, depending on certain body mass and chemical factors. Considering this only happened for two years, it was a largely transient phase.

And despite how Brian37 portrays himself... my teeth are always bigger.

Projection coupled with poor reading comprehension.

I thought it sounded Heinlein-ish.  Very true. 

Though my delusions as a mother did not include how wonderful my children were, but how I didn't want to be committed - jail or mental institution.  Therefore, I had better find a way somehow to deal with the little monsters.

My oldest is 40 now and I still have no idea why I had children.

"Don't mess with my fangs. I worked hard on my fangs"(Spoof of Travolta in Saturday Night Fever taking about combing his hair perfectly)

I am a physical wimp though. If just about any adult wanted to kick my ass they probably could.

It's been years since I was unlucky enough to get stung, but I remember the last time well. I was mowing the back yard, minding my own business, stopped to close the door of my storage shed, pissed off a swarm of bees... one of the little buggers nailed me right on the nipple....

I said some very bad words, in three languages.

LC >;-}>

Give me a break. Endorsements are largely an appeal to whatever emotional attachments one has for the endorser, which is pretty "irrational" when juxtaposed with actual reasoned arguments made by the atheist community itself. I could care less which businessmen, celebrities etc. support my "cause." Scientists? Sure! As long as they actually support it, which doesn't apply in this case.

And having Einstein's or Stephen Hawking's or whoever's face next to the term atheism in the dictionary is going to change that? Don't be foolish. There have been some major breakthroughs by secularists in the past centuries and the time is nearing when religion will be the underdog. But it won't happen over night, and it won't happen because "so and so" believed this, and it won't happen because atheists used desperate propaganda schemes used by "kids and ex-theists who are fed up with going to church." It'll happen because science is advancing and reason and logic are being pushed.

Well, sure. I'm mainly arguing that pointing to endorsements to "round 'em up" per se isn't the right way to get things done, however effective it may or may not be. Voicing relentless objections to religion is the much more fun and honest (and as you pointed out, quick) way to get it done anyway.

                                                                                         Why yes,  ...yes I have.

                                                                        Sorry about that avatar thing being a psychological catalyst .

uote]

Uh, no.  There really is only "energy".  "Solid matter" is mostly not at all "solid".  A "table" feels "solid" because of electrostatic repulsion.  Going further into the atom, there is a large space of "nothing" between the electrons and nucleus.  Inside the nucleus, most what is "there" isn't "there" -- quarks behave essentially as "points", one dimensional nothings, and the nucleons are all made up of three quarks -- up-up-down for protons, up-down-down for neutrons.  Given enough pressure (gravity), electrons are forced into the nucleus and all those protons become neutrons.  Go up the energy scale, and you wide up with quark soup, not even any neutrons or protons or the rest of your "matter particles."

Seriously -- all the evidence is trending in a direction in which nothing is actually "matter".

That sounds a bit like "First assume a frictionless pulley".  There is no such thing as a "frictionless pulley".

Mostly wrong again -- matter doesn't know where matter is without bosons, which aren't "matter".

The problem is that you heap assertion / assumption on top of assertion / assumption about what the god you don't believe in must be or do.

You also persist in trying to make someone like Einstein into an Atheist, when he =very= clearly stated that he isn't.

There really are god-concepts that differ from the ones you imagine.  So far you seem hung up on some brain somewhere that can't possibly exist because, well, it "just can't" for some reason.

Once you "get" that G-d does not, and cannot, exist within space-time, all of your "there is no such thing as a disembodied cosmic brain" assertions go flying out the window.  While I believe that G-d does not "think", because "thinking" is a human concept and G-d is not a "human concept", the basic facts -- which I don't see how you could possibly argue against -- is that anything which exists outside our space-time is NOT subject to any form of direct or indirect measurement.

What I see people like you doing, noble as it is, is focusing solely on "How?" and not at all on "Why?"  Because of an accident of birth (parents and family members who were science freaks ...), I focus on both -- "How does the Universe work" and "Why does the Universe work".  It is the "Why" questions, which strike me as being no less real, and no less important, which will forever cause me to believe there is more to Life than questions that start with "How".  "How" and "Why" are the Yin Yang of our existence.  Physics and Metaphysics.  The Common and the Divine.  To me, the "How" of Science is balanced by the "Why" of G-d.  The are opposite sides of the same coin.  Without an understanding of Scientific Reality, the person who focuses solely on their concept of the Divine is out of harmony with the physical world.  Without an understanding of Metaphysical Reality, the person who focuses solely on their concept Physical Reality is out of harmony with those things which make us Human.

When you find that one-sided coin, you let me know.

God does not and cannot exist in space/time? Then either he doesn't exist or he is a logical fallacy.

You can't logically state that there is no God because you cannot know all things so as to determine there is no God.

I didn't make an absolute claim. It was based on the claim that God is a being that exists outside of space and time. 

That reading issue is biting you in the butt again.

Where is your knowledge of all things to determine that there is a God?