But it wasn't "jewish revelation", it was "jewish reelaboration/reinterpretation. The same is for the other things: the order is not wrong if you do interpretation work, genesis is not so far from the truth if again you do interpretation work... But they would be all wrong as that wasn't the meaning, from what I know.

Doesn't matter much, just a coincidence (if and truly if you want to compare things, which would be absurd). Even with that interpretation, I am not sure it's properly right.

I am not sure what are you implying but I don't think I agree.

You can't be serious... They "knew" that stars and animals came before them only because the place was to be ready for who it was prepared, for the designed hosts. It has nothing to do with what you said.

I thought it was not only a dead, but a lost language too.

All the religions go against science/human knowledge, in a way or another, yours too.

You said you was christian... Did you call "God" as "God" instead of "G-d", back then?

My imagination is wild. There is no agreement between philosophy and reality (except maybe for two or three branches...) -- expecially in this case where it's more than that, it's theology. It's not only about "science", or better, it is because whatever sacred thing we're talking about, Torah or not, in the end it will go mess with science or something else, contradicting it. If not, there would not be a religion.

It seems, here (where I live), that "in vain" is understood as "with bad words", blasphemy, or something like that. Not that it stops people from doing it. In fact, there's a dialect which is pretty fond of these things, but let's not go there.

STILL missing the history of ALL prayer as claimed in human reality.

Your claim is "We don't ask for petty things"

So? Name me one human of any race or religion anywhere in the world, no matter what incantation they invoke as being magical, be it prayer of a Muslim, or Hindu or Christian or Buddhist, that isn't trying to curry some magical favor to a benefit of some sort?

First off you assume falsely that Muslims or Christians are not capable of praying for noble things like peace. I don't have a god myself and I want peace too.

Your prayer is not special, Muslim prayer is not special. Hindu prayer is not special. Buddhist prayer is not special. I don't care if any of them are trying to cross their fingers to win the next sporting event or get lucky at personal wealth. I don't care if any label"s  focus is on noble things like ending world hunger or war or violence.

It STILL all amounts to human superstition. Selfish or noble.

Human evolution is what is going on, not magic, not prayer, not Karma, not meditation. HUMANS, merely being humans. Humans filling in gaps instead of looking for common ground.

When did your god change its name to God?

Last I heard its name was YHWH LHM despite the nonsense translation as "lord god" in Christian custom.

Sigh.

Jewish prayer does NOT NOT NOT serve the purpose of trying to compel G-d to act in any way.  Noble or not so noble.

If you wan to make up things about other religions, have at it.  My impression some times is that you're like a reformed drunk at an AA meeting -- if you don't keep talking smack about the Demon Rum you might just go to the store, buy a bottom, enjoy a few drinks, and discover that Rum is horrible, but a little Creme de Menthe in your coffee hits the spot

Perhaps you could explain more clearly what  you mean. I google "jewish prayer" and found only things that contradict what you appear to be claiming.

This turns out to be an all purpose wishing list site.

www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Judaism/Jewish-Prayers.aspx

There appear to be some twenty categories of begging categories.

How do these not contradict your statements? I have taken the liberty of bold facing the praying for healing, i.e. the change the course of reality, to perform a miracle.

From judaism.about.com/od/reformjudaismfaq/f/pray_ill.htm I get

Question: Is there a Jewish prayer I can recite for my friend with cancer?

Dear Rabbi Goldwasser,
I have a Jewish friend whose cancer has spread. She has many friends of different religions who are praying for her. She has no problem with this as all prayers help. She was saying there must be equivalent prayers in our heritage. Years ago, when my husband was ill, I was given a poster from a Rabbi from Young Israel. It is the Asher Yotzar prayer. Is this a suitable prayer/poster to pass on to her in her circumstance?
Thank you for helping, Marcia

Answer: Dear Marcia,

Thank you for your letter. You ask about an appropriate Jewish prayer for the healing of your Jewish friend who is battling cancer. You also ask about a specific prayer, "Asher Yotzar."

This prayer ("Asher Yatzar" in the more common Sephardic pronunciation) traditionally is recited every day by Jews as an acknowledgement of the miracle of the human body and of our indebtedness to God for its design and function. It is not intended as a prayer for the sick. Rather, it is a prayer that anyone can say in witness of their own body's intricacies and continued existence.

Here is a modern translation of "Asher Yatzar":

"Blessed are You, Eternal our God, who formed the human body with wisdom and placed within it a miraculous combination of openings and organs. It is evident and known before Your honored throne, that if only one of them should be opened or blocked at the wrong time, it would be impossible to exist and stand before You. Blessed are You, Eternal One, the healer of all flesh and worker of wonders."

Traditionally, this prayer is recited after using the bathroom and also as part of the blessings at the beginning of morning worship.

Judaism does have a tradition of prayers for the sick. The most familiar of these is the "Mi Shebeirach" prayer that is usually recited during the service for the reading of the Torah. Here is a translation of the version used in many Reform congregations:

"May the One who blessed our ancestors, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel and Leah, bless [names] with healing. May the Holy One have mercy on them, heal, strengthen and revive them. Speedily grant them a complete healing, a healing of the soul and a healing of the body, along with all who are ill, now and swiftly. And let us say: Amen."

I would also recommend a prayer found in the Torah (Numbers 12:13). When Moses' sister, Miriam, is struck by disease, Moses offers the shortest prayer in the Hebrew Bible:

"Eil na rafa na la."

"Please, God, please heal her."

You may use this simple prayer to speak eloquently your hope and prayer for your friend. I hope it brings comfort and strength to you and your friend.

Best wishes,
Rabbi Jeffrey W. Goldwasser

Using myth to prop up your sense of awe, is silly. I have the same sense of awe without making u fictional beings.

I think there ARE pretty things in life and the universe. A cute kitten. A beautiful sunset. A  clear night and a sky with a full moon and stars. All of it pretty and makes me go "wow". But I don't ignore nasty things like cancer, or tusnamis or black holes, or even human cruelty. I think you have to ignore that to prop up your sky daddy,

I don't need to have a ficitonal god or a superstition nor do I need to talk to myself to have a sense of awe.

And you think because I "Protest" so much that somehow I secretly want to be religious? Absurd.

I am no more "protesting" about any god claim much less yours. Sorry, but being passionate about the earth not being flat and the moon not being made of cheese is not "protesting". Anymore than it would be "protesting" to say storks don't bring babies.

Don't assume I am right about prayer, don't take my word for it. If it worked like ANYONE CLAIMED, it could be harnessed and patented and used like gas or computers. And it could be taught like entropy and DNA.

Muslim prayer, Hindu prayer, Christian prayer and your prayer is nothing but humans taking to themselves. Prayer existed in prior polytheism when humans prayed to volcanos and animals long before the written tradition. It is a gap filling side affect of our species evolution.

I am no more "protesting" than I would be "protesting" if someone claimed the Chargers won the Superbowl when that would be a bullshit claim since the Packers did.

You are not special because you are Jewish. No one is special because they are Muslim. God claims existed prior to your human invented myth. Your holy book is merely a book of myth and is as true as the Egyptian gods or Thor or Atlas.

Once you, or anyone, polytheist or monotheist,  postulate a non material being you are screwed to me as far as s defense, REGARDLESS of who is claiming it or what tradition they claim to come from. I have no desire like you, to hold on to an old story to have a sense of awe about the world around me.

All you are proving to me is that humans can be gullible and gullibility has always been a trait of human behavior  and I don't see you doing anything differently than the Mayans did with making up their gods, or Hindus did in making up their gods, or Christians or Muslims do in making up their gods.

Human history was not invented by Hebrews or Christians or Muslims. Evolution in reality produces humans who like making up stories.

I am not accusing you of being a bad person, just accusing you of being flawed in your thinking because gap filling has always been a  part of the same evolution.

So it is ok for you to be passionate about sticking to your story that a Jew saved your life by showing you the light. But when someone else with a different position has that same passion, they are only fooling themselves?

This also misses the point that I have already ceded that you may go your whole life staying a Jew. But there are two reasons that I am passionate.

If I seek to maintain anything worthy of every human's support, at a minimum the attitude that questioning is not a bad thing, is good for all of humanity.

But I also do it so that spectators get more than just one side. If you have nothing to fear then the open market of ideas is where both of us should be.

I am not a lost soul. I am not angry at fictional gods. I am merely the guy reminding the rest of humanity what year it is and how far humans have advanced beyond ancient stories. I am not stuck in the past.

We have far more readers than daily posters. If you look at the stats at the bottom of the page home page, on the left down at the bottom,  you see that at any given time there are on average 100 people. That doesn't mean only 100 people a day, just 100 people at any given time. So that is thousands of viewers a day because the same people don't stay on all day.

And if my "badgering" bothers you that much, then DON'T torture yourself by reading my posts or posting at the website yourself. YOU came here and no one is forcing you to post here.

You use the word "badger" because you you cant stand that someone is challenging your "specialness".

You know damned well you don't think I am special because I claim the label atheist. So don't be a hypocrite and claim you are special because you are Jewish.

And I said before, you may go your entire life being Jewish. I think you are wasting your time. But that is secondary to the REALITY that we are a planet of 7 billion people.

No human is special by proxy of race, religion or national origin. Atheists are not special either.

Humans are individuals and if you gave a shit about treating humans as such you'd understand why having a Jewish state is a bad idea. If it is not ok for Muslims to have a Muslim state, or atheists to have an atheist state, or Christians to have a Christian state, then don't be a fucking hypocrite yourself.

You're dodging the question.  I know that your scripture says that God spoke to humans; I wanted you to prove to me that He really did speak to humans, to prove that those scripture verses are true.

I use the word "badger" because that word best seems to describe your behavior.  If your objective is simply to drive me off this website, you may very well convince me that is the best course of action.  You seem to have succeeded with redneF and he was on =your= side.  Frankly, your behavior can be more readily explained as someone who has severe doubts about their own atheist views and is in need of constant reassurance that they're correct.  While I very seldom suggest anyone engage in the polytheism that is Christianity, I'm going to suggest that perhaps you need to get back into a church somewhere until you can come to grips with whatever it is that has you acting in the manner in which you behave.

Likewise, I'll point out that having 100 readers at any given point in time is a meaningless statistic when it comes to deciding whether to badger and harass some "theist" -- you'd have to have a reason to believe that being an annoying f*ck is a better course of action than =not= being an annoying f*ck.  Because that's how you come across and it's getting to be =very= annoying and not the least bit persuasive.  If anything, you come across as someone who can only make their point by trying to drown out the other person, which tends to work very badly.  I would argue that it works poorly enough as to not work at all, by which I mean, it has the opposite effect of what you intend.

The standard approach, given in the Hebrew bible, is to see if what the "prophet" said comes true.  You can argue that just makes it a lucky guess, but when someone keeps coming up with lucky guesses, that sort of says something.

In terms of Hebrew prophets (not to be confused with anything that =isn't= an actual prophet) that a certain Bronze Age goat-herder religion seems to have stuck around and seems to be doing everything to drive the world to "peace and universal brotherhood" (see Isaiah) tells me our prophets had a better connection with whomever is handing out answers.  I mean, I don't see Egyptian sun-god worshipers running around and many of the pagan practices that were extremely common thousands of years ago are all but gone.  Which sounds a bit like a piece from Zechariah -- "And in that day G-d will be One and G-d's name will be One."  In Roman times 1/10th of the Roman Empire (which was far from the entire world ...) believed in Ha'Kadosh Baruch Hu.  We're up to about 3 billion Jews, Christians and Muslims out of 7 billion total people.  Based on biblical criteria, I'd say that Zechariah had a revelation from G-d.  Which is convenient since he's also a Hebrew prophet ...

I know you were responding to Noony, but.....

Your Jewishness makes you special? And anyone who doesn't support a Jewish state doesn't have a grasp on reality? Good one. Noony's black and white thinking is as as much reality as yours. Delusional.

Here is what I can do that you cant., and he cant.

My atheism does not make me special. Try reality yourself. You too Noony.

I think he suffers from narcissism himself in the form of the same "virtue of the oppressed" garbage you do. So pot meet kettle.

Jews are not special, Palestinians are not special, there are just humans killing each other needlessly.

Once again fine.

Now do you, or don't you think you are special because you are Jewish? A simple yes or no will do.

Bullshit. You yourself said you wanted a Jewish theocracy. If that is not setting up a pecking order in thinking one is special then I must live on a different planet. If that is not saying "I am special because I am Jewish" then peanut butter tastes like squid and Fox News is "Fair and Balanced".

You are in total denial that you are NOT special because of claiming the label of Jew. It is not a "gotcha" question anymore than saying both of us shit and pee and will die is a "gotcha" FACT!

You are just as delusional as any Muslim who thinks Muslim law is good for everyone. You are just as delusional as any Christian who thinks the Constitution was ripped out of the bible.

If all non-Jews who live in Israel cannot compete in the political process to become PM, you are no better than Iran where there is no hope for a Jew becoming PM.

The attitude is the same, the only difference is degree of delusion. They treat non-Muslims as rats. You are only slightly better in that non-Jews are pets.

Furry,

Beyond religion or politics name me one human being that has survived death.  You know damned well there has not been one human being that has survived death.

Christians were the first to popularize a zombie god motif. And the right wing nuts in that bunch treat Jews as the Limo driver to the club of the after life but the Jews wont in majority get past the velvet ropes.

How about this.

Humans are very easily lead by the powers that be. I am sure you would agree that the citizens of North Korea love their dictator as much as any Muslim loves Allah.

My only advice to ALL of humanity is to stop living in a fucking box. If we all have arms and legs, and we all feel pain, and we all want to survive, then life is a no brainer to me.

WE ARE ALL THE SAME SPECIES REGARDLESS OF LABEL

SKIP THE FUCKING LABELS AND STOP TREATING OTHERS LIKE RATS OR PETS!

How about we all treat each other like individuals?

BINGO,

Which is why I argue labels don't matter.

I am sure Beyond has good intent. I am sure other rich people he sides with don't give a shit.

What matters is not class, label, religion, politics or race. What matters is that we are INDIVIDUALS first.

Denial that we are all the same species is what hurts humanity the most.

I will side with someone I disagree with before I side with someone who makes a utopia their priority. There is no such thing as a utopia. It wont work for Beyond, or Me or Furry or Noony.

NOW is all humans have, not our labels, not our politics, not our religions. None of those labels will prevent any human from dying. Old age is the only goal I find noble for our species. Politics and religion and race and nationality are the needless squabbles that prevent our species from dying from old age.

So when the Torah said Yahweh would drive the inhabitants out of the promised land with hornets so it would be empty when the chosenites arrived was that a false prophecy or did Joshua invade the wrong country? Did Moses lie? Clearly it is wrong.

Do you really think it wise to compare all of Isaiah to the future reality and prove he was not a prophet by your definition or shall we just look at Israel and see that is contrary to the facts? Like all believers you choose only the few facts whichi support your fantasy.

As we know, Judaism is the only religion protected by both the Christians and the Muslims. As to survival the greater the fanciful claims of the number of Jews in the Roman empire the clearer its failure when we look at the increase in the world population. Since 1950 the world population has more than doubled yet there are the same number of Jews as there were in 1938 through 1948.

Of course they were not protected religions. Perhaps it is just being a man but I don't see the value of an ritual/taboo genital mutilating religion. I agree folks like you have christianized your heresy a lot just as the Galileans romanized the Judean cult. It is obvious why the Orthodox do not consider the Reform to be Jews at all.

And that number was arrived at by Jews slowly increasing the estimate every few years without the least physcial evidence for any number. It is also absurd to say much of anything before the Christians invented the idea of codifying a religion. The picture of Moses striking a rock in the "jewish" catecomb outside Rome does raise the question of whether they should be called Jews at all. If so it means the no pictures of people rule came later and is not biblical at all.

Sorry but the Judeans denounced the Galilean heresy and slaughtered them whenever the opportunity occurred as in the Mamia Pool massacre. It took Constantine II to ban the forced conversion of slaves owned by Jews.

I find it amusing the more insistent the believer the less they know about what they believe. You are no worse than most. Like most you are supremely ignorant of what you talk about.

Finding a definition does not mean it is a working definition. Working means I can actually use it to determine satisfaction of the definition. Christian, a baptized person who adheres to the basic creeds such as the Apostolic. One can complicate it but the complications don't really change anything as in Unitarians are in all but the trinity thing.

How does a person, an individual, have a traditional religion? What does that mean? A group can but not an individual. An individual does or does not adhere to a religion. Does it mean a Jew who converts to Christianity is a Jew?

Does tracing origins mean a convert to Judaism is not a Jew? And doubly not a Jew because it is not their "traditional" religion? That definition excludes Furry.

Not just that, have you missed the atheists who claim to be Jews? As I said, no different from a fraternal organization.

I was born and raised in Cincinnati. Real traditional German town although that was so long ago it is little more than a memory AND the surnames. When I moved to DC it took me years to understand what people meant by jewish names and looking jewish because the names were German and they mostly looked German.

Years after figuring it out I acquired good friend, a jewish doctor born in Hungary, and if he is not nearly all Mongol I have no idea who is. I have no idea what looks like means.

Keep in mind that neither Islam nor Judaism are creedal religions. Observant Jews can believe anything they want including that Abraham and Moses were deluded drug users and/or charlatan con artists. However they must perform the rituals and avoid the taboos. That is the requirement the only requirement for membership. It is a ritual/taboo religion. Muslims must believe, There is no god but Allah and Mohamed is his prophet. Beyond that it is also a ritual/taboo religion. Islam is Judaism Lite.

Because we live in a free country under the delusion of democracy.

There is ruling class in a democracy. There is a wannabe ruling class that kisses it ass. Fact, 80% of Americans were against the 2003 war against Iraq at the time it started. Find that mentioned any place today. It was only 60% or so against the first Iraq war. I agreed with the first war for a lot of reasons but not the second which was a total waste of lives and money and only benefited Iran as I said it would.

Clearly no American who fought in Iraq fought for their country other than in the sense of an employee. No one died for their country. Iraq was never a threat to the US, period. Every Iraqi killed was murdered by Americans and there is no way out of that as it was a war of aggression by the US. There was no defense involved in any sense even the most drug induced. Find that mentioned any place.

Those that fought have my sympathies because they were deluded into thinking it was a cause worth fighting. However most of them knew it was crap while they were there and just enjoyed the fighting and killing. And that is a fact you can read as the subtext of literally hundreds of direct quotes. The grunts say fighting for, the official press releases are the ones that say defending. And those who compose the press releases know the reason the use of the word "defend" is required. In knowing the reason they know it was not defense.

This is exactly the sort of thing Orwell wrote about in 1984 but was using WWII Britain as his model. His job during that war was being the Winston character and doing what Winston did.

For the record, I did twenty years with DOD in DC headquarters. I have nothing whatsoever against war per se. I am not a pacifist in any sense of the word. I am against wars for ideological reasons. They are a waste and solve nothing. There are legitimate wars of national interest. The US has not been in one since the Spanish-American war.

WWII has been raised to mythical proportions which do not mention preserving the British and French empires and expanding the Soviet empire which were its only causes and consequences. The legitimate US interest was replacing the British dominance of the world. The error was not following Patton's advice to draft the German POWs and destroy the communists. Had that been done consider the world without a Cold War, no communist China and no world power capable of changing the US interest in free trade as a rule of international relations. 3000 years ago that was the course of western civilization and wars disrupted the mutual dependency on free trade and were discouraged. It is where we are hopefully headed today despite the Cold War hiatus.

The Jewish god by its own description of itself is NOT all powerful, all knowing nor all loving. By its own description is it petty, spiteful, jealous, venganceful,  knows little and does not control much of anything. That is the Jewish god prior to the Reform movement christianizing it. RTFB. Read The Fine Bible. That it what it says about itself. That is the god of the Jews. It is phrased several ways but all to the effect 'my people are those who obey my laws' and there are no exceptions even to the most arcane laws.

As to the modern world, real Jews are polygamists which is the point of the Latter Day Saints on polygamy. Israel arrests real Jews. And in response real Jews do not recognize the zionist government. Real Jews get along fine with Muslims who also recognize polygamy with the limitation of being able to support them.

The Furry Syndrome is christianizing Judaism as Christians romanized Judaism. Greeks and Romans were monogamous. If Furry does not support polygamy she is not a Jew she is rather a christianized Jew.

The Furry cop out on the nonsense "science" in the bible is it was the most the goat herders could understand but at the least suggestion the morality was the most they could understand she rises to her pulpit.

Which of the "noatic laws" are not in the "tell me something new" category? Which of the big ten are not in that same category?

Years ago someone sent me and I lost track of a 4000 year old letter of father to son upon his coming of age whatever that meant at the time. Other than dwelling upon avoid lawyers it essentially recounted the ten commandments in a much more human style. Honor thy father and mother was more like we raised you as best we could and hope you will do the same for your children. We made mistakes but we tried our best. It was not stone the brat that is not respectful. This is one of the really big hints that the OT was meant as entertainment rather than rules back when it was created but that is another thread.

That's because the god you don't believe in is a puppet-master.  I don't believe G-d is a puppet-master who solves all our problems for us and makes sure we never fall down and skin a knee.

There are parents who behave the way the god you don't believe in behaves.  They are called "helicopter parents".

The number of Atheists who don't believe in a god who is a puppet-master is truly alarming.  It's like you are angry that you aren't able to get whatever you want by asking your non-existent Sky Daddy Santa Geppetto to give it to you, so you're going to stamp your feet, pick up your ball, and go home.

There is a concept, which while not formally part of Judaism (because it's a Latin term ...) seems to be the case, called "Imitatio Dei".  See here --

Guess what?  Not only do you have the power and the knowledge, but if you set your mind to it, you could actually do things that =would= work to solve the world's problems.  And if everyone followed the instructions given above from Leviticus and the Talmud, the world's problems would actually =get= solved.  Just as if G-d really existed, without G-d having to be Sky Daddy Santa Geppetto who makes sure you never learn how to do anything on your own or take responsibility for your actions.

I think I'll stick with the G-d I believe in and leave you to the god you don't believe in.  I like mine a lot better.

But if you challenged a Christian as to how they know it's the Holy Spirit talking to them, they'll probably say it's because it conforms to scripture, or that they "just know," or that it's as absurd to doubt the presence of the Holy Spirit as it is to doubt that the visual experience of a tree corresponds to an mind-external tree. 

I remember seeing Craig say that quote from Reasonable Faith on YouTube.  I shuddered.  Or cringed, I don't remember.  It looked to me like he cared more about the emotional high than truth. 

Well, you clearly still don't understand my perspective... *sigh* whatever, it's not really necessary anyway...

More importantly, what you've written here will definitely help me to better understand YOUR perspective.

I already do minor things to improve the world and the lives of those around me every day. I'd love to do major things too. However, there are also lots of things in my life that I would be quite reluctant to give up. In addition, the sheer magnitude and complexity of problems in the world is often overwhelming and discouraging.

So why doesn't everyone follow these instructions?

BIBLE PROMISE - FAIL. That G-d is such a kidder. psych

Psalms 91

1 He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty.

2 I will say of the Lord, “He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust.”

3 Surely he will save you from the fowler’s snare and from the deadly pestilence.

4 He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.

5 You will not fear the terror of night, nor the arrow that flies by day,

6 nor the pestilence that stalks in the darkness, nor the plague that destroys at midday.

7 A thousand may fall at your side, ten thousand at your right hand, but it will not come near you.

8 You will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked.

9 If you make the Most High your dwelling— even the Lord, who is my refuge—

10 then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent.

11 For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways;

12 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.

13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent.

14 “Because he loves me,” says the Lord, “I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name.

15 He will call upon me, and I will answer him; I will be with him in trouble, I will deliver him and honor him.

16 With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation.”

Scripture is dope. Its the bomb.

Yeah, George Carlin was a comedian; he died in 2008.  I got that quote from a clip of one of his stand-up routines on YouTube.  It's awesome.  Jesse Ventura actually became an atheist after he watched it, and the video now has 11,599,484 views.  Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o  (George Carlin - Religion is Bullshit)

Pass it along.