Mises and Moses?
I got done watching some of clips of the Zeitgeist documentary, and they brought up the idea that Mises (an egyptian law giver) was the parallel to the Jewish law giver Moses. I googled Mises, but nothing on him/her came up. If anyone knows the story of Mises, can they confirm the statement above for me? Or tell me if Mises is even in Egyptian mythology to begin with?
I'm looking for answers on the roots of the Judeo-Christian religions, so please offer any information availible.
“The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they put a man called Christ in the place of the sun, and pay him the adoration originally payed to the sun.”
― Thomas Paine
- Login to post comments
I've not heard of Mises, but I think that Thoth/Djehuti was the ancient Egyptian law-giving god.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/59681201/Berossus-And-Genesis-Manetho-And-Exodus-Hellenistic-Histories-And-the-Date-of-the-Pentateuch-Russell-E-Gmirkin
is a book on the roots of Judaism.
Israel Finkelstein writes on the associated archaeology.
Also see http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/17279
i can't find anything concrete on "mises" either, though i found one site where someone said mises was sumerian, then another where a guy said he was actually assyrian. someone also suggested that the assyrian sargon was a possible influence on the moses myth.
i just think zeitgeist was sloppy with their research. surprise, surprise.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
i do not recall ever coming across any named lawgiver for Egypt. I do not recall anyone even of the stature of Solon for the Greeks. Hamurabi's fame is not in the law but in producing copies of the whole of the law placed all over his empire.
If you want a real lawgiver go to MST3K.
If you want to go to Moses as lawgiver go to the modern redacdtion. in the Septuagint he is only the conduit for revealed law, a prophet. He created no law himself.
Looking for a parallel to Moses as a lawgiver is a fool's errand from the get go. The Moses of the Septuagint is a tongue tied puppet of Yahweh with no intrinsic merit for himself other than as the chosen puppet.
To properly understand the Septuagint one has to read it WITHOUT the "what it really means" companion books. It means what it says regardless of currently popular theology even when, particularly when it is totally contrary to currently popular theology.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
http://www.harris-greenwell.com/HGS/MenesFirstToWriteTheLaw
extract:
In his study of Ancient Egypt, B. Kemp described the process of the unification of Egypt and the formation of the Egyptian State from small, independent agricultural communities. Central to this aggregative process was the notion of the “containment of the unrule.” This concept was one which drove the “need for kingship,” a kingship required to re-impose the order of a mythical age, where ma’at—justice and harmony—ruled and combated the forces of chaos. By a sort of divine dispensation the kings participated in the power of ma’at, who was, in fact, a goddess as well as a concept. It was their rule that assured that order prevailed over the chaos of unrule. The unification of Egypt thus was inextricably linked to the promotion of law.
As Diodorus informs us:
For in primitive Egypt, after life had become settled, . . . they say that the first person who convinced the people to use written laws was Menes, a man both lofty in spirit and the most altruistic in his way of life of any lawgiver in memory. He claimed that Hermes had given these laws to him as a source of many substantial benefits; and this, they say, is just what Minos of Crete did among the Greeks and Lycurgos among the Lacedaemonians, the former asserting that he had received his revelations from Zeus, the latter from Apollo.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoth
The Greeks related Thoth to their god Hermes due to his similar attributes and functions.
I just reviewed one of my favorite movies. This little gem called Man from Earth.
In this movie is mentioned again the myth of Mises or Misis as being the origin of the Moses story. I can't find anything either... the movie is from 2007. There are stories in the Bible clearly copied from previous myths but I don't know about the origin of the Exodus myth.
The Zeitgeist "documentary" is a bunch of crap that I don't give any credibility. It starts well but it progresses until it dips in the mud of intellectual dishonesty.
Now this movie I'm talking about is a much greater "mind masturbation" despite being a work of fiction. It tells briefly a much better explanation for the origin of the Bible than any interpretation I know of from any religion
Since my first response here I got this PM from another forum.
My response was
Whatever brought this up in two places at roughly the same time I have no idea. Probably a "serious" source like History Channel.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
And one of the best SF movies ever regardless of the budget of which Man from Earth had next to none. The most expensive prop is a pickup truck. It also has more points of congruence than this
Mises yarn.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
I have to totally agree with you on that one. (Imagine that, WE AGREE ON SOMETHING, lol). I am no scholar and even I could see all of the errors and conspiracy theory nonsense in zeitgeist. Plus, alot of the "religious" information they are giving out in the beginning is all wrong. It gave me a headache to watch it.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
I used to love the History Channel. But now, every time I turn on there, it is some program about "inexplicable mysteries" and "ancient aliens".
They even had one about the Nazis using UFO technology to time travel. I made it through all of five seconds before changing the channel.
I thought history was supposed to report history as we know it. Not present weird conspiracy theories, haunted houses and all that other bunk.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
I know we do agree in a lot of things but it's more fun to talk about things we disagree
As a side note I believe the general atheist is smarter or more knowledgeable than the average "believer"
I have to agree on that one too.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Moses is 100% myth and it's even more glaring than Jesus who is 99% myth!
Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com
Same with all the rest like Learning Channel and in the good old days there was www.giwersworld.org/mgiwer/hebrews.html Of course it has only gotten worse for the religious since this.
The Greatest Story in History
by
Matt Giwer (c) 1995 <10/29>
When I was a lad (I have waited decades to say that) the press would always say the Second Coming would be the greatest story in history. Today we cynically joke about the headline, "World ends tomorrow, women and blacks to suffer most." Perhaps that cynicism is deserved as there is such a story and it has only been covered in one documentary series.
That series is "Archaeology" hosted by John Rhyse-Davies and has only been shown in the US on The Learning Channel on cable TV. In some six episodes it covered the discoveries of archaeologists in Israel in recent years. In two of them it objectively and in a very understated manner, removed the foundations of Judaism, Christianity, and the Muslim religion.
None of this is a secret. It is in the technical literature and if you visit Israel you can visit the sites. And yet that is the extent of the coverage of the story.
In one episode the evidence of the origin of the Israelites is quite carefully laid out. They always lived in the land of Israel as herdsmen and came to power when people who lived in the cities for some unknown reason lost power, possibly a war, most likely insurrection by the herdsmen. To put it more bluntly, as they always lived where they are there was no Promised Land. Lacking a Promised Land, there was no Egypt, no Moses, no Ten Commandments. The entire foundation for three religions has vanished.
Lacking an Egypt and a Moses we are also lacking a Joseph and an Abraham and a covenant with a god. Circumcision, the sign of the covenant, becomes no different from any other ritual sexual mutilation performed by primitives around the world. In this everything in the first five books of the Bible, the Pentateuch, the foundation of three religions vanishes.
In the other episode the Israelite pantheon is discussed. The idols of Yahweh, Astarte (his consort, which is also in inscriptions so there is no mistake), Baal and several other gods are shown. And a common representation of all of them in one idol is also shown. Again more bluntly, Yahweh God, God the Father of Jesus who was the prophet before Mohammed was no more than an Israelite version of Zeus, Jupiter or Odin.
All of this has been implied in the Bible itself and has been known for centuries. In the last hundred years it has rapidly become clear from other sources that there was no basis whatsoever for the Egypt/Moses story: it being only slightly less fanciful than the magic fruit, the talking snake and miraculous flood of Genesis.
But now, in addition to negative evidence, the lack of evidence for the truth of the Egypt/Moses story, we have positive evidence of its falsity. Without first person interaction with a god the Ten Commandments are barely more a footnote in the history of human moral ideas. Without a Moses it is difficult to give credence Mosaic Law as being much of anything other than a curiosity.
When we learn for certain this Yahweh was just the first of a pantheon of gods (thou shalt have no "other" gods before me, as it always read and always meant) there is no credible basis to argue, "This one is real, the rest were not." Since this same god that is God the Father of the Christian trinity it becomes laughable to argue for its having either a son or a spirit as other parts of the same idol. If there ever was a Jesus certainly he was no more than a man as there is nothing more for him to have a relation than a stone idol.
And while Christians focus on their Jesus, Muslims need to consider that their Allah is the same stone idol. Their prophet is a prophet of a stone and when they "akbar" their "Allah" it is this primitive idol they are praising.
That is the story that is not being reported and it is more profound than I have portrayed. It is easy to think about people recognizing there is no god but it is another to examine that in practice.
Next time you are driving through town pay attention to all the churches and religious references you see. That is how deeply we are enmired in the worship of one of the gods of the Israelite pantheon. Listen to the political speeches and delete the foundation in a god from everything said. Review every law that exists to prevent an offense against god, remove the god and try to fill in the blank.
The UFO conspiracy types hold the government suppresses what it knows about UFOs because of the effect upon the people that "we are not alone." Yet right here for all to see and read about is the removal of the entire foundation for the religious beliefs of over half of the world's population. It is the biggest news story of all time. It appears the cynicism about what is news these days is clearly warranted.
Perhaps no one wants to be the one to break the story? Perhaps it is just a matter of not wanting to put it bluntly? But this is like leaving the coverage of a UFO landing on the White House lawn to a "maybe, someday" article by the paper's science writer.
And if one wanted to continue to take religion seriously you would think a picture of Yahweh (a photo of his idol) would be front page news. It is like discovering a bust of Jesus or proof positive the Shroud of Turin is authentic. A painting of Mohammet would pale in comparison but these discoveries are not news.
So while you have not read it in the papers or seen it on the evening news, the greatest news story of all time (at least of the last two millennia) is not being told. Now you know it. The foundation of three major religions is now gone and it was beneath the notice of the press. It makes you wonder what else the media is not covering.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Amongst archeologists it is nowadays regarded as certain that Moses never existed....Niels Peter Lemche, Danish Old Testament researcher, emphasized that Abraham never lived. Nor did Isaak and Jacob ever exist. The Exodus from Egypt never happened either. The Bible accounts, mocks Lemche, are as suitable for archeological research as the novel 'Ivanhoe' from Walter Scott is for the reconstruction of England's history of medieval times. What is left to be discussed by scholars today, is only the questions when exactly did the Mosaic religion come into being? --Focus, Munich, 38/2001, page 130
Click here to find out why Christianity is the biggest fairy tale ever created!! www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm www.JesusNEVERexisted.com