The right to die
Offline So Tony Nicklinson, a stroke victim with locked-in syndrome, has lost his court case to allow him to die.
In order to die, he would have had to get someone else to physically kill him, as he is unable to move. He describes his life as 'a living hell'.
There has been progress on 'right to die' cases in Europe recently, with clinics such as Dignitas in Switzerland providing a euthanising service for people wishing to end their own lives. Several British people have used this clinic - but the law remains in the UK that someone helping them to die, even by facilitating travel or handing them the pills, could theoretically be convicted for murder or manslaughter. (This hasn't ever actually come to court yet, but the law remains).
People opposed to assisted suicide say that this may set a precedent where old and ill people feel a burden to others, and may be pressured into committing suicide because of this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19249680
My personal view is that we should all be able to live a life free of pain and suffering, and if this is not possible, we should have the right to choose a quick and painless death - forcing someone to remain alive in this case is tantamount to torture. Of course counselling etc should be provided to anyone considering this option, but the ultimate decision should rest with the person whose life it is.
Thoughts? Comments? Your view?
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I hope the mutherfucking assholes opposing euthanasia suffer the longest, most torturous death possible. That's my gut reaction to these fucking real life demons.
I recently read about another case where a woman had some kind of growth in her intestines that basically blocked her digestive tract. Instead of allowing her to die, the courts literally sentenced her to die suffocating on her own shit. Have I mentioned how much I hate out idiotic species?
Yeah well maybe they should. If your life has no value whatsoever even to yourself and all you do is suck up resources then guess what, we'd be better off without you and you'd be better off without your fucking life, so why the fuck is it a bad thing that these people feel like they should gtfo?
Damn right. I DEMAND the right to invest my own welfare in my own judgement. I don't give a fuck what you think my life is worth, the only person who has to live my life is me, so anyone trying to prevent me from killing myself can go fuck themselves with a shovel.
Just to clarify in case there's any confusion, none of my hostility here is directed at you Mosquito, I just really hate these anti-euthanasia assholes.
Every time an Assisted Dying bill is proposed in parliament the House of Lords rejects it, last one I think was Lord Joffe’s in 2006 and why is that, because the Lords Spiritual consists of 26 bishops.
http://www.churchofengland.org/our-views/the-church-in-parliament/bishops-in-the-house-of-lords.aspx#WhichBishopsbecomeLordsSpiritual
A couple of years ago I read that Dignitas is in fact an empty flat in a seedy little block laden with graffiti, a courier on a bike turns up and gives you the phial and explains after you drink it you’ll die, they charge around £10,000 for this service which has probably gone up. It could be said it doesn’t matter if you’re dying but at that price they’re making a killing in more ways than one.
Real change will come when it is brought about, not by your ego, but by reality.
Tony de Mello
You have to have 6 months or less to live.
You have to be certified that you are not depressed, that you are mentally capable.
This must be certified by your primary physician and a second physician.
You are given a prescription for the pills and instructions on how to take them so you die with the least amount of fuss and bother to your friends and relatives.
You do not have to fill the prescription or take it.
My thoughts on this law --
It is probably the best compromise we can get. If your physician is uncomfortable with writing the prescription, you can always go to another doctor. Statistics are kept - many people don't fill the prescription. Many more don't take it. It appears for most people, having the choice and control and option is all that is necessary to reduce anxiety and therefore, pain. Many seem to feel, yes, I could take the pills, but it isn't that bad yet.
I do not know how Oregon's law could be applied in this case. If the person has more than six months to live, he wouldn't be eligible. I do not know if the total paralysis would negate the intent of the law. I would think many people who take the pills in Oregon require assistance near the end. I'm not a lawyer.
The law does not allow for relatives to request the pills. So this is not forced euthanasia. And since you have to be certified as not depressed and capable of making your own decisions, etc, people with severe brain damage who can not speak, or are not mentally aware, can not be given the pills. People with dementia or Alzheimer's can not be given the pills. My husband says if he is that bad to put a pillow over his head - but I could go to jail for that and I am not interested in doing so. He will have to stay mentally competent. Yeah, like anyone has any control over that.
In almost all US states, you can have a "living will" which allows you to express your desires if ever you are injured to the point of not being able to say what you want. You can designate a person to be your advocate, whether you want extreme measures to be taken to save your life, even if you want a feeding tube or ventilator or dialysis. But you can not be euthanized.
I empathize with this man, but I don't know enough to have a strong opinion about his situation. Some recovery after a stroke is possible, especially if you are not elderly. Anger, frustration, depression, would be normal, I think. And 10 years from now, when he has time to adjust and heal, would he still want to die? People do adjust and continue on with lives that may not be perfect, but may be satisfying all the same.
Someone who survived and recovered completely from a stroke that left her completely paralyzed and unable to speak:
My Stroke of Insight by Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor, www.drjilltaylor.com
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Categotizing depressed people as incapable of making rational decisions is absolute bullshit. How am I not supposed to be depressed if my life is complete shit? Depression should make me MORE qualified for euthanasia. not less.
What is your rational argument against allowing anyone who wants to end their lives from doing so, whether they're going to die soon anyway or not?
I'm not interested in any compromise, I want full rights for anyone who wants to kill themselves to receive assistance in doing so, regardless of their reasons. I wasn't asked if I wanted to be born into this shithole, the least you life-imposing assholes can do is let me get the fuck out whenever I please.
And if you can't find one who'll write it? This same reasoning could have been (and was) used to deny people civil rights - "if some business owner doesn't wanna service ye niggers then go find someone who will". It was a bullshit argument for that and it's a bullshit argument for this.
That's right, merely allowing people the option of ending their suffering actually reduces that suffering.
I believe the idea is that depression is treatable. Though I happen to agree with you that if you feel all happy and content, why take the pills? I'm just repeating what the law is....
Hey, you are preaching to the choir. I fully agree - you want out, and you don't feel like taking a chance missing with your pistol, fine. Take the damn pills. The law is for assisted suicide, not plain-jane-pull-the-trigger-jump-off-a-cliff-take-poison suicide. While suicide may be against the law in some places, there isn't a law anywhere that can prevent anyone from taking their own life if they want to bad enough.
You may be in a situation that makes suicide difficult to accomplish. Like the man referenced by Mosquito. So you can not commit suicide without assistance - and that is where we get into discussions of assisted suicide.
Yeah, in some areas of the country you might have a difficult time finding a physician who would write a prescription for you. Just like finding someone who will sell you a morning after pill. I personally don't believe - if you are physician or pharmacist - that you should be able to deny a patient care based on your personal beliefs. That is, if a woman wants a morning after pill, you should not be able to deny dispensing one. If someone wants the suicide pills, you should not be able to deny dispensing them. In some areas of the country, the very idea of assisted suicide causes at the very least dismay and possibly some wacko killing the doctor who is killing people and is a murderer - oh, my!
Fortunately, I live in Portland, OR, one of the more liberal cities in the US. And there is not an issue with finding physician or pharmacist who is a reasonable, rational person. I can only be thankful I don't live somewhere full of religious nuts.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
In some cases, to some degree. Take it from someone who has personal experience: There ain't a goddamn thing doctors can do to relieve you from rationally induced depression (or some cases of chronic depression without a clear cause either). I have psychological issues that modern psychotherapy/neurology can't treat that make my life pretty damn crappy.
No law can prevent me from ATTEMPTING to commit suicide, but as long as people in my society try to "rescue" suicidees I can not with any certainty end my own life.
This is why I believe we should have clinics where people can go to receive a graceful ending to their life.
This really isn't a difficult subject if you ask me. Why should whether or not you have the use of you arms and legs be a deciding factor in whether or not you get to decide for yourself what your life is worth?
I agree, depression may or may not be treatable. But many people believe it can be completely cured. And I also agree that is because they have no clue. I am just reporting what I have heard. Your and my opinions have doodly-squat effect on the people who write the laws.
Clinics for those who just want to give up - not a bad idea. I think it will be an uphill battle to get people to agree that they should be legal, regulated, and readily available.
The difficulty, my friend, is that some people have suicidal thoughts, but then their life changes, and they no longer wish to kill themselves, but to live. My husband told me before he met me he often had suicidal thoughts. Now, he doesn't and hasn't for years. As long as there are people like my husband, there are other people who will argue that all people who are suicidal could find a way to live happily. I reserve my opinion as I have met people who persist in seeing themselves as useless and other people who have brain chemistry so mucked up they can't get to a positive state.
Should those who truly can not see their way to a positive life be allowed to end their own without intervention? If you leave a note, if you have almost but not quite succeeded, should you be allowed to die? - I don't know. Remember, even if you believe no one would miss you, there are people who would be personally shattered if you took your life. I have had a number of people tell me that when a relative committed suicide, they have never been able to accept that the person did not have something to live for. They have all told me they feel guilty that they could not reach out and help the person before they succeeded in committing suicide.
Color me ambivalent.
The intent of the Oregon law is that a person is able to swallow the pills on their own. The caretaker does not need to be involved. The doctor does not need to be involved beyond writing the prescription. It is not euthanasia, it is assisted suicide. If you can not use your arms or hands, it becomes euthanasia. And that is not legal.
People get nervous about euthanasia. And I can understand their reasons. Should we start killing everyone who has some small defect that gives them a less than perfect life? What defect? What is perfect? How do we add it up? Someone may say they want to die today, but next year, they may not want to. And who made you god, that you can read their mind, tell their future? The person who is totally paralyzed may not be so next year, given enough personal will, enough incentive, enough support and therapy. Why take that opportunity away from them before they have a chance to see what they can do?
Your life is worth what you want it to be worth. YOU make that decision, not me, not anyone else. So if you have decided your life is worth nothing, try spending a minute on how you might be able to make it worth something to somebody somewhere sometime. Just for ducks.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
I fully support the right to commit suicide and laws regulating assisted suicide. I think any person should be able to commit suicide anytime they choose to do so. Assisted suicide regulations should only exist to ensure that those assisting with suicides are working in a process that both protects them from being charged with a serious crime and also makes sure that it isn't being manipulated to murder a person who doesn't want to commit suicide.
It is ridiculous that people think government should have so much power over us that it can decide we shouldn't die.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
This is one of those things that sounds logical but is in fact just wishful thinking. If the fact a suicidal person can change his mind is an argument against letting him commit suicide then with the same logic the fact a happy person can become suicidal is an argument against letting him live.
I'm gonna die anyway, what's it matter whether my funeral is now or in 50 years. When you really analyze these usual anti-suicide arguments they're almost all complete mush.
Yes, they wish the person had kept on going so they wouldn't feel guilty. It's entirely selfish bullshit and it's preposterously assholerific to demand someone keeps living their shitty life just so you can not feel guilty. Most people do very little to actually make suicidal people's lives better, all they do is try to make sure they keep living their shitty lives.
We are still assuming the person has to consent to being euthanized, right, or in cases where consent is impossible like unconciousness we have prior knowledge the person would consent? If so, then I really don't care if you want to die because you're in constant pain or because someone broke your barbie, if you want to end your existence then you should have the right to do that, period.
Funny how people never apply this logic to starting life, just ending it. Maybe if the suicidal person's asshole parents hadn't played god he wouldn't be in that situation.
I can fully agree with this.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
In Oregon there is an assisted dying law, there is a difference between this and an assisted suicide law. I’ve copied and pasted the different categories below as it’s easier than paraphrasing:-
• Assisted dying (legalised and regulated in the US States of Oregon and Washington) only applies to terminally ill, mentally competent adults and requires the dying patient, after meeting strict legal safeguards, to self administer life-ending medication.
• Assisted suicide (permitted in Switzerland) allows assistance to die to chronically ill and disabled people who are not dying.
• Voluntary euthanasia (permitted in the Netherlands and Belgium) allows a doctor to administer the medication directly to the patient.
• Euthanasia is a term often used to describe life ending medication being administered by a third party, perhaps without the consent of the patient.
http://www.dignityindying.org.uk/about-us/our-policy-assisted-dying.html
Real change will come when it is brought about, not by your ego, but by reality.
Tony de Mello
I agree with this as well. So many people want to argue " It is my life" when they wish to pursue a dream, a goal or a lifestyle and 99% of the general public would agree with them.
If people are going to use "It is my life, I should be allowed to do what I want" for positive things, then they should be allowed to use that same argument for ending it.
I have a family member that starts out every day with a pint of vodka and few beers. He pretty much drinks throughout the whole day and functions. Other family members have yammered about interventions and such, but I think that is a waste of time. You can't FORCE someone to stop an addiction if they have no desire to do so. I mean, his wife has bullied him into treatment three times, he gets out and heads straight for the bottle. His argument is "It's my life, if I want to drink that is my business." To be honest, I can't think of any argument against him on that one.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
I see no rational reason why a person should not be allowed control over their own death. It's the only thing that we have full control over. Especially in a terminal illness case, or when said individuals is just a vegetable. That being said, I hate cowards that end their potentially full lives because of a "poor me" pity party. Most times those people leave behind responsibilities and dependents. I just have no respect for people that choose the easy way out.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
I've been fortunate enough that I always had friends that got me through my darkest times and suicide was never something that I seriously pondered (for one thing, it was TOO final and I could not change my mind later). Ironically enough, my battles with misery and depression has pretty much ended since my deconversion from religion.
I even wrote a blog about that one time. Why I felt the beliefs in ultimate purposes was poison for me.
When my theist family all turned their backs on me, the cards seemed all stacked against me and I was on my own, I would wake up maniacally praying "god why don't you help me ? god, why don't you DO something for me ? etc. etc. "
Once I realized that nothing was listening and it was up to me to get myself out of this mess, things got a lot smoother to cope with. I got a "take it as it comes" attitude.
That is one of the reasons that I hate religion so much, it teaches you not to believe in yourself and depend on god to do it for you, but then contradicts itself by saying that you have to make the choice to change. Well hell, if I have to make the choice to change, where does yahweh/allah/jesus fit into all this ?
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Maybe they want the person to live so they won't feel guilty. Maybe they truly cared - but the asshole suicidal person kept pushing them away so they were unable to help or to express their concern. Maybe the asshole suicidal person is so busy screaming about their shitty life they can't hear or see what people are trying to tell them and do for them. Maybe not.
You know, someone's life may be shitty, but that is at least in part due to their attitude. It is the person's choice to attempt suicide, to figure out how to commit suicide successfully, or to grow up and make something of their life. i know you don't want to hear about all the people who are severely handicapped, previously abused, or from truly terrible backgrounds who have a full, happy, purposeful life. Your attitude is your choice.
I am not arguing that you - or anyone else - should not commit suicide if you so desire. Just be sure you get it right the first time and you can not be "rescued" if that is truly what you want. And don't expect anyone else to kill you just because you want them to - it won't happen.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
You've got it completely backwards.
For example I am a person who, from a rational perspective, is actually better off being dead. It's the kind of quality of life issue that has nothing to do with what you may consider having a "full life"
But here's why you're wrong ...I am still alive because I am a coward. It takes guts to consciously override a powerful instinct that employs fear as the primary inhibitor. On a personal level, my sense of shame comes from the fact that I am still alive. Committing suicide would mean that I took control of my natural fear of death and did what needed to be done in spite of it. It takes guts to be a lucid person and voluntarily walk into the arms of death. And so far I haven't found the emotional resolve to correct a mistake of nature. Only courage would enable me to do that.
I leave behind no dependents. I had the foresight to understand that while I was out enjoying the sins of the flesh that I should never inflict my own miseries upon a wife and family by marrying and reproducing. At this point of my life I understand that is the position of antinatalists of which I am one.
I have no respect for those who express a smug sense of superiority over someone who is at their absolute weakest.
I understand - I would never have the courage to kill myself.
It also takes courage to live. To find your center and put one foot in front of the other. I know I say it a lot, but then, I have had to do just that so very often. One step at a time. One minute, one hour, one day. I can do one step at a time.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
Yeah because suicide is always the first thing people resort to, it's not like anyone ever talks to people about their shit first and takes meds (which btw have little proven effect over a placebo, we simply don't have really good meds for dealing with this), even puts up with dehumanizing institutions.
A lot of the reason people feel guilty when a relative commits suicide is because society feeds them bullshit like the idea that every suicide can be prevented. Other suicides, the ones that come as a surprise to their loved ones, might have actually opened up about it if they didn't know that saying the wrong words means assholes will come to your house and take you to a mental hospital against your will.
I'm personally done talking to anyone about my feelings because I find it so absolutely disgusting that these cunts think they have the right to kidnap me if they disagree with me about my decisions regarding my own life. That one three month trip to their shithole that did me absolutely no fucking good whatsoever was enough for me.
Yeah let's blame the victim. Do you do this with raped women too, just curious?
How the fuck am I supposed to change my psychology?
Yeah tell the elephant man he just needs to grow up, or the girl who had her face burned off at age 5 and now looks like a monster that no man will ever have any interest in, or the guy who's only functional fucking bodypart is his eyelids. I think it's you that needs to grow up and accept that your wishful thinking, victim blaming bullshit doesn't do shit to actually help people.
People should work in, or at least study, psychiatry before making assumptions about suicidal people.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
That naivete about suicide was certainly my experience and seems to pervade all of Western society. For example, try finding a single pro-choice suicide website on the internet. I found thousands that had the typical patronizing / dismissive attitude. Only a handful were in agreement that sometimes self-extermination is a perfectly rational option even in relation to purely psychiatric issues.
You're an expert on this topic, too ?
Yeah, and ALL the public discussion is ever only about whether we should let already half-dead people kill themselves. If you even introduce the idea to the average person that just any somatically healthy individual should perhaps be able to kill themselves without intervention or, god forbid, even be assisted in any way their head explodes.
PDW is upfront about his position do you take this view also Manageri?
Oh, but Peggotty, you haven't given Mr. Barkis his proper answer, you know.
Charles Dickens
The view that it's incredibly difficult to get to a place mentally where you can overpower that fear of death? Yeah, if I could overcome that bullshit fear I really don't think I'd be here anymore.
I have chronic depression - for most of my life. At this point I don't remember ever feeling like I am told how normal people feel. I have had talk therapy and medication. No, I am not currently on medication. I only see the therapist if I have something specific I want to work out with someone not as close as family or friends. No, I can not get rid of it. No, I can not change my personality. Yes, I know what caused it and it is not hereditary in my case. But I am not a victim.
Shit happens to everyone. It is the person's choice to select a response and attitude. I know nothing of your diagnosis, or your situation. This is not "blame" - my only intent is to point out that you do have choices. They may not be choices you would like to have to make, but still, they are your very own choices.
As for being raped. You do remember I am a woman? Of course I have had sex when I didn't want to. I don't know any woman who hasn't been hassled to the point she just said - "whatever, hurry up, would you?" This may not be rape in the sense you (and others) mean when they say rape, but it is rape just the same. Regardless of the exact circumstances, do I blame her for giving in, for getting drunk, for hanging with the wrong crowd, for being on a street in a bad neighborhood, for choosing the wrong boyfriend/husband/lover, for being born into a family with a sexual predator? No. But she must deal with the consequences in some fashion whatever those consequences may be. She has choices about how to respond to the rape and what changes and decisions she may or may not make.
That is all I was trying to say to you. You have choices, and frankly, I am not impressed with the choices you have made. As long as you persist in labeling yourself "victim", you will be a victim. I am not surprised you and PDW took my post the way you did.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
But cj... I never even commented on your post ...either positively or negatively. And besides, I claim no victim status and I blame no one but my own genetics for my psychological ailments. I simply stated the facts of my particular situation and that was never an invitation for anyone's pity nor do I even desire it.
No, you didn't, not directly. My bad.
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
This is the heart of the problem and one which most of us will have to confront at some point (although we pretend otherwise) meaning it’s a practical rather than a theoretical issue and therefore a matter of law which needs to be changed.
Oh, but Peggotty, you haven't given Mr. Barkis his proper answer, you know.
Charles Dickens
There's a difference between being a victim and doing the whole refusing to label yourself a victim for an expected psychological benefit thingy. You're a victim whether you wanna label yourself that way or not.
I don't know what the point is here. So I have the choise of eating shit or drinking piss, and what, the fact I have that choise somehow makes things better?
If this is rape then a child nagging a parent for a toy is performing theft. If you wanna talk about how people shouldn't do that, that's fine, just don't label it rape.
Curious, given that you know next to nothing about my life and what kind of choises I've made regarding it, so of the very limited pool of choises you do know I've made, which ones do you think you have sufficient information to condemn and why?
I care about truth too much to play these bullshit psychological games with myself. I may be worse off that way but you can't play the game with the whole board in mind if all you care about is your own piece, and I care about the whole game.
There were a few, but they all kind of died off...
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
It doesn't take a suicidal person to figure out that it's everyone's own choise what to do with their own life, all it takes is not being an asshole.
Far be it for me to think that I have some sort of objective view on the whole thing. Remember, I believe everything is relative, there are no absolute truths, we're all entitled to our own little paradigm... Bottom line is I respect peoples choices, and as long as you're not being an asshole by killing yourself and leaving behind dependents, by all means... it is YOUR choice.
On the other hand, if you find life is "too hard" or the day to day drag is unbearable... and providing for the children which you have willfully brought into this world just cramps your style, then killing yourself is an asshole thing to do. You are still entitled to it, but don't expect me to agree or support it.
On a personal note, I have also fought my own demons, I think all the introverts that dedicate a fair amount of energy to thinking have been depressed at one point or other. I found ways to deal with it, and it is an ongoing struggle, but I'm doing alright. I follow a pseudo-taoistic philosophy where the act is the purpose, but none of the other spiritual BS. It works for me, just like some of the shit may or may not work for you.
I just want to be clear that I support whatever decision people make regarding their own life, as long as it's not hurting others.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
I agree, but this is more an argument against parenthood than suicide. Fact is, there's just no way you can guarantee you'll be around to take care of your kids 5 minutes after they're born, much less for the next few decades.
My random thoughts sorry potential ADHD:
What about financial debt? Lets say person X has a huge amount of debt, and they decide they are suffering or life is just too boring and they should be allowed to kill themselves.
Should their financial debt be considered in the assisting of their death? Or should the lender have a say in it? If they try to commit suicide should they be revived due to excessive debt?
If you think they should be allowed to die in any case, then should a depressed person be evaluated for suicidal leanings before a loan is considered? What if the loan is to help them get the medication and physiological help they need to get away from a depressed life? But it rejected as it is too risky.
I think a person has the right to end their own life, but I think that is irresponsible to allow them too when their deaths invalidate the lenders right to collect debt.
Final thought.. I don't know the answer, but I think there are some rational reasons to consider saying no to an individuals right to end their own life as the impact is more than emotional loss, but financial on the part of the lender.
Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.
Illuminating thread. I'm a firm advocate of personal choice but I've always regarded suicide as wasteful. Understand that I've never faced a personal reason to consider ending my life.
Allowing for pseudo-scientisms here, we all have been in a state of non-existence for all but the briefest nano-flicker of existence. The probability of my existence (yours too) and what it has offered me is a source of fascination. Therefore, I cannot truly perceive how some folks regard their life as not worth living. Depression, to me, is only a clinical term that I have not experienced. I can regurgitate how to treat it; medicate it and recommend things one can try to alleviate it, but I have never felt it. I can do the same for child birth but I will never experience that either. In no way am I minimizing or dismissing anyone's experiences, I'm simply admitting that my emphatic abilities can only bring me so far.
I'm a advocate of personal choice and providing means to carry out ones choices through dignified means. The sticky point, for me, is what would be the minimum criteria one would meet before I would provide the dignified means.
KORAN, n.
A book which the Mohammedans foolishly believe to have been written by divine inspiration, but which Christians know to be a wicked imposture, contradictory to the Holy Scriptures. ~ The Devil's Dictionary
First of all Magus, I just wanna say that unlike most criticism on the right to die, yours is actually thoughtful.
Seeing as no person is responsible for their own existence I say let the parents foot the bill. If you don't like that then cork your fucking uterus and stop imposing life on others.
If some asshole gets me addicted to heroin against my will and I loan and spend 50k dollars on clinics and whatnot trying to break the habit, but in the end I can't and it makes my life unbearable and I kill myself, is it not fair to make the asshole who got me addicted pay those bills?
I think figuring out whether someone's suicidal makes all kinds of sense in figuring out whether you should loan them money. If you're running a bank I can tell you that you really don't wanna loan me a mutherfucking dollar.
As for loaning money to treat that suicidality, to me this seems more like a job for government or charities than for private businesses.
Sounds reasonable. They might be responsible for the individuals creation, but after 18 they are not responsible for them according to the government. How long should they be responsible for the debt? Does that mean in order to get a loan you have to co-sign with your parents until they are dead?
Sure if you can find said asshole.
How easy is it to blame someone else for your problems? Who determines fault?
The accused cannot in this case face the accuser.
Would there be a "Get your affairs in order" prerequisite before you could legally commit suicide?
If the person is truly responsible they should be financially responsible for the clinic bills even if you didn't kill yourself.
Agreed. The debt could be handled like defaulting on it. How can they determine this? Could they legally get you evaluated for physiological issues? Would the physiologist be obligated to inform a lender of the condition of their patient?
I see that as a possibility. Especially with government health-care.
*I removed my previous quotes you refer to, to keep the post cleaner (visually), however if this is not agreeable I will in the future leave all quotes
Sounds made up...
Agnostic Atheist
No, I am not angry at your imaginary friends or enemies.
It doesn't matter what our laws say, you're responsible for the life you created forever. If my greatgreat(enter 500 greats here)grandson commits a rape, I'm still partly responsible as that wouldn't have happened without my direct imposition of life on my child.
Parents are fully aware of the fact their children's lives may turn out to be unbearable and cause them to commit suicide. If you don't wanna be charged with cleaning up that mess then don't have kids. I mean what do parents expect their kids to do, try to have a happy life without ever creating anyone that depends on them financially or emotionally? How do they expect me to be a happy person without finding a spouse that has emotional dependency on me or a job/project/whatever that depends on me financially? Your parents created your needs, why shouldn't they pay for their fulfillment?
If I ran the world it would go without saying your parents pay for your shit. How is it different to create a child than it is to let two dogs breed and grab one of the puppies as your pet? If you're responsible for something's existence then it seems clear to me that you're also responsible for fulfilling that thing's needs.
Does my ghost really need to be in the court room and tell my side of the story? Isn't it obvious how to decide the case without my input? If you create a need then you are responsible for fulfilling that need, I can't think of an ethical declaration that's more obvious off the top of my head.
Well I already said I think your parents should be made to take care of whatever mess you left behind. I'm totally open to any arguments about why it might possibly be your own responsibility though.
That's exactly right, the rapist should pay for the psychotherapy of the rape victim in ALL cases, whether the victim is suicidal or not.
I can't see any reason why it would be wrong to make someone applying for a loan sign a document that lets their doctor/nurse/psychotherapist/whatever let the potential loan provider be informed of any relevant mental conditions.
Looks good to me. Unless the spectators have any objection I say continue as is.
Groan..... the pun, the pun!!
-- I feel so much better since I stopped trying to believe.
"We are entitled to our own opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts"- Al Franken
"If death isn't sweet oblivion, I will be severely disappointed" - Ruth M.
I have sympathy for people with terminal illnesses but I don't think they should always be euthanized on request. It should be judged on a case by case basis. Sometimes there might be ways to improve the quality of their lives for the time they will live.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Then I would like you to explain why you think the value you place on someone's life should supersede their own jusdgement. If my life is absolutely horrendous torment to me then why the fuck should it matter that you think my life is just peachy? I have to live my life, you don't, so whatever you think my life would be worth to you is entirely fucking irrelevant.
The person dying isn't the only one involved. They want to be killed by someone else who is doing it reluctantly, so there has to be some agreement about whether it's justified. If you wanted to die I could only try to dissuade you but if you wanted me to kill you then you'd need to convince me.
There are twists of time and space, of vision and reality, which only a dreamer can divine
H.P. Lovecraft
Trust me, the moment a law passes in any country that lets suffering people be euthanized there's gonna be a ton of people ready to provide that service. Get that law passed in my country and I'll volunteer to administer that injection immediately.
You always get my humour cj
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
Then you should likewise evaluate cancer patients who are in remission, persons who were formerly chronic drug abusers, persons who are HIV positive, the children of parents who have a likelihood of passing on fatal diseases ( ie, Huntington's disease ), and conceivably any behavior or health status that by it's very nature increases the possibility of a shortened lifespan that could prevent repayment of loans.
Why stop there? Consider everyday factors that potentially lower our lifespan. Like amount of driving, putting us at risk of an accident, type of work, amount of stress at work.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
The cost of having underwriting that intensively is quite high and will quickly go deeper into the banks profits than the amount lost through defaults caused by these things. The cost of default is already calculated into the interest rate, so unless you are talking about a really large amount of money, it is not cost effective to go through that much effort to screen loans. It makes sense for a life insurance company to underwrite that closely, although for small policies under $25,000 they often don't. It wouldn't make sense for a bank issuing a small amount of unsecured debt.
As for who pays when you kill yourself, I don't see a problem with current probate laws. It varies by state, but the order in which creditors receive money from any assets is already set into law. Whether you die from your own hand, from an accident or a health problem is irrelevant.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
I was thinking the same thing Beyond.
Insurance companies ask me all sorts of questions for higher rates. Do I smoke ? Do I ride a motorcycle ? How often ? How many miles ? How many miles do I commute to work ? Etc.
I worked for a company one time that promised a lower rate if I would enter a smoker's cessation program. I shrugged and just paid the extra twenty bucks a month.
I don't know how you could screen a potential suicide.
The stock brokers that all jumped out the windows in 1929 were probably not suicidal the day before the stock market crashed and the country went into the Great Depression.
As far as credit goes, the old saying : money talks and bullshit walks is pretty applicable. I know several co-workers that have filed bankruptcy and have still bought houses, booked expensive vacations and bought vehicles, etc.
Before the credit card laws got stricter, I knew several people that would max out all their credit cards, borrow shit-loads of money, spend it all and then file bankruptcy.
I DO know that I was in the hospital for kidneystones one time, when I did not have any insurance and received a bill for 40 grand. When I called them up and told them there was no way that I could pay that ( even on a payment plan, they wanted five hundred a month). The hospital sent me a letter and stated that they had written it off. A nurse that I had dated at the time had told me they get a big tax write off on that, so everyone pretty much wins.
I don't really see financial debt as being much of a factor on suicides. I certainly don't see most people that want to kill themselves pausing to think about something like a credit card debt.
The laws have gotten a little stricter on loans and credit cards. A few years ago, I kept getting approval for credit card after credit card (and we're talking credit limits of ten thousand). I saw where that was leading me. I had 12 damned credit cards at one point and could not stop using them.
I finally cancelled the ones that had small amounts on them, paid them off and cut them up. It took me about three more years and a second job to get rid of the remaining ones (my mail was full of debt consolidation companies) and I cut all those off as well. I have one left for total emergencies and it does not stay in my wallet where I can conveniently grab it.
Granted at one time, my credit was good enough that I could have gone to a Harley Stealership and rode off the lot with a Road King and not put a penny on it. But, I'd rather live slightly below my desired means and just do without.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
I was just trying to get across how unreasonable that request is.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
I agree with you.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno