The Fall
Offline I would like to demonstrate thanks to this thread that the concept of the fall is actual and true, and that scientific findings reinforce the need to recognize this as a fact, that we are humans that have fallen from our divine nature and need the way of Christ in order to save ourselves.
First, lest start by brushing a picture of our origins. The first mammal appeared some 70 MYA, in the form of a small nervous rat looking creature. After the extinctions of the dinosaurs about 65 MYA these mammals saw an explosion of their numbers since they were now able to occupy niches vacated by the dinosaurs. 55 to 58 MYA ago the first descendant of what would become the human race appears in the form of the first primate Altiatlasisus Koulchi a small creature foraging in the woods with opposable fingers and a bigger brain. From this development 20 MYA the ancient great apes appear and then go extinct because of dramatic climate change. As we can see today only 5 species managed to survive: Orang-utan, gibbon, chimpanzee, gorilla, and yours truly: humans. It’s interesting to note that we were very lucky and could have never existed because of this climate change. The divergence that leads to humans happens 7 MYA, Toumai, Orrorin and all that.... We know the rest: our ancestors decided to leave the forest for the savannah, Australopithecus and the genre homo... It’s interesting to note that there was allot of trial and errors in ‘’making ‘’ the human race, and if small factors had been different humanity would surely have a way difference visage. Also interesting to note is the fact that our ancestors were not this romanticized picture of noble and fearsome hunters, but instead scavengers and hunters of sick and small animals.
Once all these facts make their appearance one is bound to be brought back to earth with the ideas we entertain about our divine nature. Pressing questions make their appearance: what kind of fall could have caused us then to be visited by Christ? What form would of this fall taken? What makes human history different from that of any other animal? This is where I stand in. I attempt to give a reasonable answer to these questions so as to reconcile the findings of physical anthropology and the idea of the fall as described in the Bible. First of all we need to ask ourselves what kind of fall we are talking about in the Bible. If we try to reconcile the literal account of the fall with scientific findings then this is impossible, however if we attempt to reconcile the idea of the fall with reality then this is possible and moreover it’s supported by socio-cultural facts. The idea of the fall simply put is that we have want for divine supernatural nature, and that this want won’t go away until we return to God and to the supernatural.
In almost every culture there is an account of a certain fall, all of these accounts share one thing in common, a want for the spiritual world, for God, to overcome our human nature. May it be in the form of a journey or in the case of Christianity in the form of a savior, the cosmology of every culture has a concept of the fall. Gathering from this similarity of all cultural cosmologies we find that humans have discovered indeed that they have fallen away from a sort of spiritual world in different degrees depending from the cosmology in question. So from facts from the real world we do see that humans believe they fell away from their divine nature. This is attested by cultural facts and also by the history of humanity that far from being this glorious history is this rather banal story way far removed from what we could have imagined. Yet, if we were living in the dark constantly, we should have never realized there was light, and yet as all the cultural cosmologies attest, we did realize that there is light, that is, that we have fallen from our divine nature. Some have alighted on this or that aspect, however I firmly believe that Christianity has gathered all of the relevant details concerning this actual fall. The superiority of the supernatural world over the physical word is then immediately apparent. For if the body , made out of matter had this far from glimmering history, the soul who enabled us to understand our divine quest is of God alone, and it is restless until it rests in him. So in conclusion, we can see that there was and is such a thing as the fall, that is, the fall from our divine nature into this dark and gray material world. The mere facts that humans dotted themselves with cosmologies, which all recognize this fall is a fact that points to the reality of the fall. Anyone has simply to read the myths of any belief system to realize that the fall is present, although in different shapes and sizes, and with different meanings ascribed to it, however the basic fact here is the reality of the fall.
The second point I would like to mention in support of the fall is that we as human are not mere material constructs like robots, or machines, rather we are beings who have a very powerful supernatural dimension to our beings, granted this dimension can negated or denied but it is fact that it exists as a fundamental part of ourselves and has been so throughout the ages. One only has to look at the number of believers in a religion or another versus the tiny number of atheists on our planet, not as an appeal to authority, but rather as an empiric fact of the existence of our spiritual nature. Let me give an example, if a thousand birds were in a huge cage, and 5 of these couldn’t fly, we would certainly
conclude that the 5 who can’t fly are deficient with regards to their nature, this is the same thing here if we compare believers and unbelievers. Spirituality then has been a part of every culture throughout the ages. So it’s only natural that spiritual beings such as us would have alighted upon the reality of our spiritual fall from the higher and most pure realm of spirits.
Thirdly, we can ask ourselves a simple question to find out if we indeed have souls, something to be same must be identical in all things, so we can ask ourselves are we merely biological entities? Or do we also have a soul. Is the self different from the body? For instance, I can imagine myself having a totally different body, I can imagine myself in the body of a lion, of a sheep even having that of a bird. However I can’t imagine my Body having another body. This means that the self is not the body for then they would be identical and they are not. Let’s think of human cloning here, if it was possible to clone an adult human being in just over an hour, a human being that would be identical to the real subject, would these two be the same? Or would they be different beings. I believe they would be completely different in a way and thus would have different souls. If you would die and have yourself cloned right before the moment of your death, would that new identical to you person be you or would the ‘’self’’ the real you be dead and there stands a completely different and new person? Reflect about that.
- Login to post comments
What does all this have to do with Yahweh's rigged test in Eden?
Your ignorance of evolution knows no bounds.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
He's better at understanding evolution than the average theist we get, I'll say that much. But my brain stopped comprehending much of what he was saying shortly after the brief evolutionary history.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I am sure you would like to. But you cant.
All you prove is that humans read superstitious crap and regurgitate that crap. There is a term for what you are doing, "Circular reasoning". You quote the bible to prove the bible.
So what? Jews quote their holy texts and Muslims quote theirs. BIG DEAL.
Now the other thing is that even before you get to word one of any of the comic books of modern monotheism ALL OF YOU start from the naked assertion that a disembodied magical super brain with no material is a possibility.
So to me arguing the "fall" of man is like blaming suicide by jumping off a tall building in lack of belief in Superman.
You accept that Thor does not make lightening and humans also no longer believe the sun is a god. I simply call bullshit on one more god claim than you do. You don't need your fictional being to live life, you merely like the idea of having a magical super hero.
There is no god to fall from. Human behavior in all of evolution is a matter of BOTH the good and bad that have always happened in our history. Believing in magical super heros and super villians battling over the neurons in your brain IS NOTHING BUT A DELUSION.
All you have proven here is that humans are capable of beliving in fiction.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Assumptions, assertions, and various unrelated facts.
(I'm sorry if this seems unfairly dismissive of a post you spent a fair amount of time and effort on, but I prefer to be succinct. A point-by-point rebuttal would simply come down to repeating the same point, over and over again)
Still, I'll second the positive feelings generated by an American theist at least acknowledging the reality of evolution. Good for you. Keep going.
But the fact is that ANYONE can get a biology degree and believe in any god or gods. I"ve seen Muslims and Jews try to pull the same retrofit crap with science so this is nothing new.
When people try to argue this crap I would ask them if most of the world tries this falacious tactic, then why isn't science settling this disupte and pointing to one god to get this bullshit over with?
Science has settled this dispute. Science is pointing AWAY from ANY god being nessary. AND we also phsycologtically and even neurologically that our perceptions can be and are far to often notoriously flawed. Not to mention all the dead myths in human history that no one longer believes in.
So when this person argues evolution, this is no different than when a Jew argues entropy, or a Muslim argues a Red Nebula or congealed blood, for their respective gods trying to falsely retrofit science to prop up their respective pet gods.
It makes much more sense to me that people merely fall for their own sugar pills because the idea of being finite frightens them.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I won't comment on begging the question with the whole Christ thing, or on the non sequitur from the first paragraph.... but this:
"The second point I would like to mention in support of the fall is that we as human are not mere material constructs like robots, or machines, rather we are beings who have a very powerful supernatural dimension to our beings, granted this dimension can negated or denied but it is fact that it exists as a fundamental part of ourselves and has been so throughout the ages. One only has to look at the number of believers in a religion or another versus the tiny number of atheists on our planet, not as an appeal to authority, but rather as an empiric fact of the existence of our spiritual nature. Let me give an example, if a thousand birds were in a huge cage, and 5 of these couldn’t fly, we would certainly
conclude that the 5 who can’t fly are deficient with regards to their nature, this is the same thing here if we compare believers and unbelievers. Spirituality then has been a part of every culture throughout the ages. So it’s only natural that spiritual beings such as us would have alighted upon the reality of our spiritual fall from the higher and most pure realm of spirits."
What kind of twisted logic makes you think that being more aware of something is a deficiency?
Are people not buying into Homeopathy somehow deficient because they are not fooled? Are Christians deficient for not believing in the sun god Ra.
I see my atheism as an affirmation of my awareness, not as a denial of a particular god or other. I am simply aware that believing in Santa, Toothfairy and the baby Jesus is childish, useless and ultimately a waste of time, not to mention the harm that irrational belief can cause on societies when enforced by a dictator. How does that make me deficient in any way?
If by deficiency you imply my inability to act irrationally, then I guess you're being deficient every time that you choose to not drink and drive, or not throw yourself off a cliff without a parachute...
One only has to look a the number of people that used to "bleed" out diseases prior to modern medicine to realize that just because a lot of people are doing it, it's not necessarily a good idea, or supernatural, or even a "fundamental part of ourselves". It's just ignorance and lack of critical thinking.
"Don't seek these laws to understand. Only the mad can comprehend..." -- George Cosbuc
The moment you start with evolution, your argument pretty much fails because it doesnt follow the teachings of the bible. Second with using evolution a a starting point there is no fall per se, we simply are evolving. Your arguments regarding the soul and god experience, well first off there is zero evidence for the soul, you have failed at this point to even prove that there is a soul. The god experience (GE) as you say has been duplicated by manipulating certain regions of the brain, which shows that it is caused by an event in the brain, not god. What is worse for your GE argument is that so many believe it to be their particular deity or deities. If there was one god there would be the same conclussion but because this event is cause by the brain and the fact that we can duplicate the effect shows beyond a doubt that this is mere a material event and not a supernatural event.
IM talking about the fist modern mammal that would give rise to the primates etc etc, 70 MYA's ago.
I am not american....
I know what you are talking about. That is why I made the observation of your ignorance. Now you compound it by adding modern.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
No one's perfect.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Well technically mammals appeared between 220 and 180 MYA, 70MYA they became the dominate species, the rat like mammal you are talking about appeared at the at the first date.
Ahem, if you want I can bring citations for this. Its a FACT that the first modern mammal that gave rise to primates appeared 70 MYA. YOu have a chance to retract your calling me ignorant before I make you pass for a loon.
Of course, mammals are much more ancient than 70 MYA but the ones ( modern mammal) that gave rise to primates appeared like I said, at about 70 MYA ago.
I took my info from (Dortier 2004) but thats in french, so have fun with wikipedia.
''At the beginning of the Eocene, several new mammal groups arrived in North America. These modern mammals, like artiodactyls, perissodactyls and primates,''
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eocene
How can you americans actually support a person like Mitt Romney????? how can this fake and liar be so high in the polls? No one understands where im from, how some rich hyppocrite could be such a match for Obama. Can't you american see this guy only wants power?? and that he dosen't give a shit for the rest of the population exept the filthy rich, hell he even said so on tape! We are all baffled here, apart from that, this man is a mormon, who beleives all kinds of fancifull nonsense and who thinks a charlatan like Joseph Smith is a prophet. Can't you Americans see trough that??? Do people really think this rich mormon clown will do better than Obama? So im glad not to be american, I would not want the risk of being governed by the worst, lying, weasel hyppocrite I have ever known existed!
Convincing A_Nony_Mouse that he's wrong is usually a futile endeavor; it may be best to just ignore him (but only when he's wrong).
And I think this sentence best expresses both your arguments and our rejection of them.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Yep, this is just a wordy fluffy way of saying "Their beliefs are silly, but my magic baby claim is sane"
I love it when they try to pull this crap. It is like going to a si fi convention and watching rival fans argue over "The Force" vs "Transporters".
By this horrible use of logic I could say "Yea, your magic baby claim is silly, but I really can fart a Lamborghinni out of my ass".
They never consider that we agree, thier beliefs are silly, but so are his.
If we all accept that it is ok not to believe the sun is a thinking god like the Ancient Egyptians falsely assumed. We may look at their art and buildings and find them brilliant in their creativity, but that never made the sun a god.
I think if humans can evolve to stop believing that volcanos are gods, or the sun is a god, I think this person can also live without believing that a baby has magical super powers and can escape death.
Otherwise L Ron Hubbard was really a prophet and not simply si fi writer who sold nutty ideas.
I
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Ok, how is this relevant to the topic of the of the title of the thread "The Fall"
Secondly, what the hell makes you think every single American supports Romney? Even most of his supporters are only doing it because they hate Obama more.
I agree with you that Romney after all his flopping should end up like Kerry but worse, it should be a Ducacus Loss landslide. So the only explination I have as to why it is still this close is BIG MONEY and lots of credulous idiots buying what the Big Corporate Money Pacs are funding.
Why is Romney still in this? Thank Our right wing Supreme Court and the "Citizens United" decision. I only hope that a future Supreme Court can reverse that before too much damage is done.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Cutting to the chase...
First prove that your god exists and that all other gods are false.
Everything else is bullshit
But that is not what you stated at all, you said the first mammal, the first mammal appeared between 220 and 180 MYA, the first primates appeared some time between 80 to 70 MYA, with the primates which humans eventually evolved from some 60 MYA. So yeah you never said anything about modern mammal. Second you completely ignored my other statement about the mistake you make about the fall, if man evolved, then he was not created in the garden of eden and therefore did not have a fall from grace.
Well that explains why you aren't chronically stupid.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Then you get no points for acknowledging the reality of evolution.
Sooo....French catholic ?
Answering that question was the point of my whole thread, I did this by explaining the fall. Try to pay attention.
Yes, I am very interested as long as it includes a definition of modern for a group that split from amphibians the same time as dinosaurs and rather obviously split from dinosaurs before they became dominant.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
So his god is a space alien. One believer is as weird as another.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
But the last time was in 1972 before you were born. How could you know?
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
The last time was a couple days ago when I tore you to shreds. Time before that was a couple days previous when I tore you to shreds. Time before that was a couple days previous when I tore you to shreds.
Before that was about a year or so, when I and multiple others tore you to shreds.
Your track record here is mostly failure. Even the vegan terrorist beat you down.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Clearly the view here is in the eye of the beholder.
But if you have fed a vegan diet to an infant why are you not in prison for murder?
There is a point where silly is not worth the time of response.
It is the same reason I pass on those who hold Judaism as something special depsite atheism. The fantasy of a jewish Volk interests me no more than any other Herrnvolk. My full quote from Haaretz on the "third" temple fruitcakes under irrationalities clearly evinces from all sides the Herrnvolk root of Judaism.
Jews stole the land. The owners want it back. That is all anyone needs to know about Israel. That is all there is to know about Israel.
www.ussliberty.org
www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alexandria/index.html
www.giwersworld.org/00_files/zion-hit-points.phtml
Too bad you're the only 'beholder' who thinks he hasn't failed miserably.
"But if you have fed a vegan diet to an infant why are you not in prison for murder?
There is a point where silly is not worth the time of response."
Actually I'm referring to your claim that B12 comes from animals, where the terrorist rightfully pointed out that it comes from bacteria.
Yes he's too silly to bother with, but you couldn't even beat him on simple science and logic, so how are you any better?
We both agree Israel shouldn't have ever existed, so there's no point bringing the jews into this.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I have read it and here is the problem, evolution explains how man came to be without god as an explanation. You are added god since you cannot prove any of this at all, and you cannot prove your specific god to be true versus all the other myths, legends and stories about the "fall of man" or the reasons there are so called evils in the world. From pandoras box, Hurons divine woman, The garden myth of the apple, etc, etc, etc from all mythologies, legends and religions around the world. They tend to be sotries about morality, to explain the nature of man or why were act or behave certain ways. However science has given up a far better explanation about human nature than this myths do. As such your invocation of god is not required when we use science to explain humans, our nature and how we came to be. It is an add on that you have done without any backing up other than the bible and using the bible to say that the bible is true is circular reasoning really.
I've talked with you, and I've read your posts in various threads. Are you saying you haven't been wrong since 1972? If so, you've only given me more evidence to prove my point.
"Vegan terrorist" That will make a good nick name for the perpetually angry Manageri.
Good to see ya
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/33184 Ref. #3
I explained that we are spiritual beings, this is a fact. Tell me, why does evolution seem do disfavor atheists? Its because you guys are doing something wrong: going against your own human nature, we cannot pass ourselves of food or drink no more that the spiritual. We have a part of ourselves that is spiritual and we want to be entirely spiritual, this is what the fall is. Its not circular reasoning it is fact, atheists are fighting against their own nature, they think they have managed to destroy this spiritual part of themselves: belief in the afterlife, in the spiritual, in God. while infact they have replaced it by something that goes against their nature, and that will untimately destroy them. You atheists are marginals on this planet, never has an atheist society thrived or lasted. All of mans great societies have been spiritual. So like I said, you are the flightless birds of humanity. You betrayed your own human nature, no hope can be found in atheism, no light, only deep darkness. What are your answers at such great questions like: why am I here? what is the purpose in life? what are we destined for as humans? atheists have abandonned answering all of these questions. Its sad really, how can a person go to his death day after day without hope, without knowing God, without love... It must be a dreadfull existence indeed.
I believe that there is a God, that he is maximally good ( or he wouldnt be God) that he cares about each of us if only we may go towards him and find rest... and that anyone who lives a good life in accordance with his concience ( the law of God in the world) has nothing to fear of death. This is what I believe, and I know this is how we rise up from the fall into the heavens. I will die and take this hope into the grave, all the while, atheists will also die, and what will they bring into the grave? bad internet forum arguments, and despair.
This is what the spiritual is in human beings, it is the smallest mustard seed,gives rise to construcs that truly do toutch the heavens if only we water it and care for our spiritual nature, if not the seed dies. And in its place a bush full of spikes and venomous fruit grows in its place, a bush bound to wither and die. Atheists are being choked by this bush, I simply read their comments here to see this, I only look at their blogs to realize this, they are sick to the core. I wish I could cure all of them, this is why me and other christians come here to these boards, not to prozelytize, or to mock artheists, but because we really feel sorry for them, it is my noble intention that if someone can turn back to his spiritual nature and beleive, in a kind loving God, and in hope of life over death and of a betterworld, then my posts will not have been in vain. Atheism is not a new thing, in every culture troughout the ages men and women have fought it, if you was me it is the gravest disease humans are facing in our postmodern world.
...and all you have to do is stop. Stop thinking, stop looking for the truth, stop trying to help others, stop trying to be a good human being.
No thanks. You can't move forward if you stay in park.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
It is NOT a fact, and CANNOT be a fact, because the term 'spiritual' (in the way you are using it) literally has no meaning. It is broken. Just like supernatural and soul and a few other terms that refer only to what something isn't. You can't even describe the meaning of the terminology you use yet you claim facts.
You, sir, are a liar.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Vishnu Purana Book VI ; Chapter V
When the child is about to be born, its face is besmeared by excrement, urine, blood, mucus; its attachment to the uterus is ruptured by the Prájápati wind; it is turned head downwards, and violently expelled from the womb by the powerful and painful winds of parturition; and the infant losing for a time all sensation, when brought in contact with the external air, is immediately deprived of its intellectual knowledge. Thus born, the child is tortured in every limb, as if pierced with thorns, or cut to pieces with a saw, and falls from its fetid lodge, as from a sore, like a crawling thing upon the earth. Unable to feel itself, unable to turn itself, it is dependent upon the will of others for being bathed and nourished. Laid upon a dirty bed, it is bitten by insects and mosquitoes, and has not power to drive them away. Many are the pangs attending birth, and many are those which succeed to birth; and many are the sufferings which are inflicted by elemental and superhuman agency in the state of childhood. Enveloped by the gloom of ignorance, and internally bewildered, man knows not whence he is, who he is, whither he goeth, nor what is his nature; by what bonds he is bound; what is cause, and what is not cause; what is to be done, and what is to be left undone; what is to be said, and what is to be kept silent; what is righteousness, what is iniquity; in what it consists, or how; what is right, what is wrong; what is virtue? Thus man, not unlike a brute beast, addicted only to animal gratifications, suffers the pain that ignorance occasions. Ignorance, darkness, inactivity, influence those devoid of knowledge, so that pious works are neglected; but hell is the consequence of neglect of religious acts, according to the great sages, and the ignorant therefore suffer affliction both in this world and in the next
. . .
you are an appalling thinker. It's that you are a gibbering lunatic...
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
And you an extremist, extremists do not discuss, so your presence on this forum is an anomaly and you are best ignored.
These are your mere claims, Its a fact that humans are spiritual beings, from our earliest origins we have always had belief in the spiritual, in souls, in spirits, in higher power, atheist are broken humans. They are missing a fundamental part of their nature. It has nothing to do with terminology, look around you: beliefs, faith, with cultural differences yes but spirituality nontheless. You atheists are bereft of spiritual nature, you have commited spiritual suicide. The fall is present for all humans, rather that rise back up you have made the physical world your only reality and you will perish with it, no different that stones and dust.
Not at all, what I ask is that you start thinking, start looking for the truth! start trying to help others, or keep doing so, be as good as a human being as you can be and in doing so who will be able to deny that you are the son of the highest God, who is all good all loving and all just, and therefore more and more will you be taken towards God and towards the contemplation of truth and filled with joy!
It is the atheist who is in park, he has given up trying to answer the serious questions of existence, and has replaced the elusive real answers with facile answers of his own devizing, as C.S Lewis said, atheisms is a boy's philosophy.
No, they are true facts, unlike the bs you are claiming.
As I have demonstrated that is literally impossible.
Come back when you can describe what spiritual is.
Irrelevant. If belief made reality the Earth would be flat and the centre of the universe and the moon would be made of cheese.
Beyond that you are guilty of invoking the fallacy of popularity.
Nothing else in your comment survives my rebuttal, and therefore doesn't require a response.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Ah but I would disagree that we are spiritual beings at all, we have no spirit or soul per se at all. Yet something else you now have to prove. We have the ability because of the evolution of our brain for abstract thinking which allows us to think of not just the present and now, but the past and the futures, as well as this ability allows us as well to think outside of the "box" per se to a degree as another person. This is shown all to occur in the brain, a material part, which is where the consciousness emerges from, no brain no consciousness. Yet there is no proof that god exists, and all the evidence proves otherwise. With evolution we have started the explanation of how this all came to be in regards to humans. Yet none of it requires god in any part of it. There is no spirit per se that survives after death, no soul, there simply is the human being and human experience.
All societies rise and fall, tribal, pagans, theocracies, communist, military, feudal etc, etc, etc. If we are to go with the longest lasting then it is the egyptian empire, should be believing in egyptian gods then? they lasted far longer than any other empire or society, no empire or society lasted longer than theirs. As time has continued each society and empire lasted less and less. Each change as we advance as a species, because ideas are spread, religions rise and fall. It is that simple, it has nothing to do with god or gods. I do not betray my nature I cannot be anything more than what I am, I understand myself, but I cannot betray myself, I can only be myself and what I am, a human being. As for the answers, we have always been asking and will continue as a soceity, for me, to continue the species is one answer, to simply be is another, beyond that there is no grand scheme of god or gods, we are not their pawns or play things. The god you describe is a cruel dictator, not a good god, no maximally good at all, not that has been proven.
As for the death part, you can die with hope, but once you are dead you are dead the same as me, no hope goes with you. There is nothing else, we live and we die, I do not fear death, for I accepted this life for what it is, a cycle, we live, we die and the species continues. Beyond that we are both dead, in the grave, nothing changes that fact. Bringing something to the grave means nothing, while you live to die, I live for my family, my friends, for myself, for the soceity I live in, you believe we are ultimately live in deep darkness but I live in the now and for the future of my family and society, you live for death, that is darkness and empty.
I think and know as a catholic that the only thing worth having in this life is the contemplation of God and of pure truth, the rest: pleasures, wordly goods, and anything temporal of physical is secondary, if we aim at the earth only, we get neither the earth or heavens, if we aim at the heavens we get the earth trown in!
Tell me what would be better than love of God and eternal supernatural life, would it be wealth? power? sucess? Only hope in God can be eternal. Is this world so kind that you may attatch yourself to it forever? I think our journey as humans is to detatch ourselves from the physical, so that when death may come it may find us fearless and ready for God! What are your toughts on the purpose of life, is it reproduction? or maximizing ones pleasures? tell me?
I believe and know as someone who has studied and analysed humans and other life forms, as well as the universe in general, that the only real meaning in life must be chosen. There is no objective meaning to life.
Pretty much anything, since what you describe as love, I describe as hatred and sheer pettiness.
And anyone who wants to live forever hasn't thought it through to its inevitable conclusion of infinite boredom.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
What is your proof we have no soul? what makes you think that? how can you affirm this with such confidence? I cited that we as humans are spiritual beings, that is, that we are drawn to the spiritual, that a part of ourselvesis spiritual, look at the number of spiritual experiences in the world and you will see that this is soé ow do you know no soul or ''self'' survives after death? Do you consider yourself rational? this is what I want from you, GIVE ME ONE GOOD REASON TO CONCLUDE THE SOUL DOES NOT EXIST. Do you think the mere fact you dont have any scientific evidence for the soul is enough evidence? by definition the soul is not of the physical realm, it cant be mesured, weighed, yet it does exist.
You only ,make assertions, you are no different than us religious folks. The truth is you dont know. But you see we have a weapon you do not, we have faith and spirituality, trough spiritual experiences things are made clear, I know so, I experienced such an experience, that changed my life, stopped me from drinking, took me off the pills, stopped my panic attacks, gave me new life. I have evidence for the spiritual world, what do you have for its non existence? : a bunch of facile arguments, bloind assertions and misconceptions.