We are all getting all bent out of shape over four years which have yet to happen.

Three things need to take place over the next four years to heal America.

1 - The Republican Congress needs to work with Obama to get things right.

2 - Obama needs to work with the Republican Congress to get things right.

3 - Our government needs to stop spending so much money on pork, end the wars, fair tax all businesses and individuals and fix the health care system.

My street have about 14 houses on it and one of the Romney/Ryan people had thrown away their sign which was half in, half out of the garbage can. I stopped to take a picture of it when, you guessed it, my neighbor drove up behind me. They quickly took the sign out of the trash and prevented me from taking a picture of it.

It would have been a classic picture.

You hope you don't make $250k/year or you hope that your taxes won't go up a single penny?

Passionate, not dramatic. Now you have tried the condecending proffesor tactic and when I negated it with rich people who agreed with me, and economic proffesors who agreed with me, all the sudden no one need an education to get rich, and a proffessor with a degree in economics who dissagrees with you didn't count.

You have a STUPID stereotype of the working class and working poor, and you think that because we cant build a car engine, that we cant drive a car or know it does not run on pixy dust. You cant even accept FACTUAL data on polls and electoral maps and expect us to trust you and the Koch brothers?It wouldn't shock me that you watched Fox News during the returns and trusted Rove and that other con man and their magic numbers.

You are joke.

Saying that people know how to make money isnt our point. Saying that people should never get rich HAS NEVER BEEN OUR POINT. Living in a bubble is what you do and what the Koch brothers do. And acting like voting is a crime when Obama wins is sick and immoral.

There are pleanty of rich people who do not think like you, unfortunately they are not the bulk of the climate. You lost and you simply cant deal with it. In a three class system WE get to vote, not you  not one class WE! So grow up and get over it.

you know what, i'll second this.  you always were an alarmist, brian, but lately you've grown into a flat-out piece of shit.  you've been arguing with the stuff you wish was there, rather than what's actually there.  and seriously, dude, start spell- and grammar-checking your shit, because your english is atrocious.  you can act all antinomian and say it doesn't matter and only nitpickers pay attention to stuff like that, but like it or not, your bad spelling and grammar give your writings less credibility in the eyes of many people.  so if you really care about reaching the masses like you say you do, clean up your shit, because, contrary to popular belief, the masses aren't fucking stupid.

my personal opinion is you're a fucking dilettante on the order of mattshizzle and you go posting on the internet because this is the only place you have a captive audience for your sad little ravings.

You're not a little shit because you rant about tons of issues; You're a little shit because you blatantly lie about and misrepresent the content of other people's posts, that is when you aren't completely ignoring them.

The best example I can think of is you accusing Beyond Saving of wanting to abandon the people devastated by Sandy.  In response to that I posted a string of quotes from Beyond Saving, with links to all of those posts, that directly contradict this, and you, of course, completely ignored my entire post.

Oh by the way, that post was Here.

Thats funny considering that the Koch brothers are small business....oh wait. OHHHH you mean taxing those making 250,000 or more? Yea, those people are one dime away from eating cat food. You got me. I'll point those making 250k to the nearist Goodwill, they'll need it considering how poor they are.

Pro big business? Aren't you the one who wanted the Koch brothers to support your third party candidate? So now you are against big business and are claiming Obama is while wanting the help of billionaires yourself? I'm confused.

I think you are simply anti Obama. I am not anti big or anti small business. I am anti monopoly and anti abuse. Our climate overall has abused the tax payers and extracted money from the rest of us and we have footed the bill. If like I have constantly said, the climate were a majority like Nick Hanour and Warren Buffet and Suzi Orman, we would not be in this mess.

The Koch brothers are only interested in their profits and their shareholders. Just like you have constantly implied "I don't owe you anything". No, you don't, but when the neighborhood around you is burning down and you live in a bubble, don't be surprised when that fire gets to you eventually.

What does need have to do with it? I don't care whether a business needs it or not, government should not be deciding which businesses get money and which don't.

You are easily confused. I am neither for nor against big business. I don't think government should be for or against big business or for or against small business. Government should be neutral like a referee in a football game and let businesses succeed of fail on their own merits. I don't see how my desire for someone to donate money to the candidate I support has anything to do with the subject. Sure I wanted the Koch brothers to donate to Johnson, they didn't- oh well, it is their money they can give it to whoever the fuck they want. 

Generally speaking I am anti government but everyone who has been on this site for more than a few days knows that. It isn't like I keep my beliefs secret. 

Oh? You think you are footing the bill? rofl. How much did you say you paid in federal taxes last year? One dollar was it? Sorry pal, that isn't footing the bill. It isn't even picking up the tip. The current taxpayers are hardly "abused" current tax payers are only picking up about 2/3rds of the tab, leaving the other third to be picked up by future tax payers. In theory we are getting a great deal on our current government at 33% off.

Yes, you have yet to explain exactly how but we all know that you know the names of three rich people who have made comments that give you a hard on. 

I never implied I don't owe you anything, I have stated it outright- I do not owe you a thing.

So the Koch brothers may or may not be complete dicks- so what? I suspect that they gave more to charities last year that helped more people than you will be able to throughout your entire life, even if you just assume that they did so solely for the tax write off- regardless of their motivations, between their company and their investments they have contributed far more to society than you ever will.

Should we make it illegal for people to be dicks? Are you going to use police force to make them be nice? Are you going to use police power to take from me in order to get stuff for yourself? Or even take your personal greed out of it, are you going to use police power to take from me to give to someone else simply because you believe that person is deserving? 

It is extremely ironic that you often suggest doing just that and then accuse me of being a bully. 

Do their motivations matter? I don't know them, have never met them, have never talked to them, so I don't think I am in any kind of position to say what motivates them. Apparently you think you are.

How do you compensate for whatever the write off as a tax deductions? Did you pay federal income tax?

I pointed out that I believe they pay more than average for their field. A point which you have failed to provide any evidence to the contrary. Why would they support eliminating the minimum wage if they don't have any minimum wage employees? I imagine for a similar reason I support eliminating it even though no one I hire works for minimum wage. I believe that people should have the freedom to determine contracts free of government interference. Whether or not that freedom will actually be exercised is irrelevant. As a practical matter, the minimum wage isn't a particularly important issue to me since the current minimum wage is rarely binding. I would be surprised if it was a particularly important issue to the Koch brothers too. The argument against it is far more academic than practical as the minimum wage currently stands. Now if the minimum wage were raised to say $15/hour then the argument becomes practical. 

Who cares whether or not you support them? They aren't running for office, they are just running their business and giving money to causes they believe in. 

Anything new to say? Nope, didn't think so. 

I would think that if the Koch brothers didn't care they would have saved themselves $500 million and not donated it to politicians. Why do you find it so hard to believe that people can have different ideas than you on how society should be structured without being evil?

And when did you pay taxes? Seriously, stop pretending you are somehow carrying the burden. Even if the Koch brothers managed to have only a 15% tax rate by profiting on capital gains alone they pay way more than you both in terms of gross dollars and in terms of percentage of their income. Most likely they pay somewhere around 18%-22% on their income. Which, admittedly is nowhere near enough to pay our countries bills. To pay our bills, EVERYONE, including YOU has to pay roughly 30% of your income above and beyond your social security taxes. But stop pretending that somehow you are shouldering the burden that they are shirking when most likely you pay close to zero in federal income taxes.

I have stated that I am willing to pay my 30% if the rest of you are all willing to pay your 30% too. Are you willing to pay 30% of your income in federal income taxes? 

If so it was obviously an unwise investment since they lost and are not going to get any returns. I would think that someone with their business savvy could find better investments, but you could be right, who knows? I just don't think there is a reason to automatically assume that they have malicious intentions as there are hundreds of possible reasons for their actions and it is certainly plausible that they believe if their political ideology was implemented that this country would be a better place to live. 

What difference does that make? It would make my after tax income 30% lower than my pre-tax income, exactly like it would do to yours. The richer are still going to have more money and therefore more options of where to spend it. So what? You should get a pass on paying for your share of societies cost because you choose a lower paying occupation? I don't think so. I don't see how you expect to have the freedom to choose your occupation and then turn around and shift the costs of those decisions onto other people.

If you expect me to subsidize your lifestyle then I think it is reasonable for me to demand you do things to make your lifestyle a smaller cost on me. I don't care to be in that kind of situation. I don't want you dependent on me and I don't want to subsidize your choices. If I wanted kids I would go adopt some, grow up, pay your taxes and stop expecting other people to take care of you. If you are unwilling to pay a 30% tax rate, perhaps we ought to sit down and look at cutting the budget because I certainly don't want to pay a 30% tax rate either. But why is it that I am a terrible person for not wanting to pay that much, but you are not? Double standards much?

yeah, you're totally right, brian, it all fucking boils down to HIM.  can't possibly be a fucking thing wrong with you.  you come out squeaky clean in all this shit.

you know what?  i actually came on here to apologize for flying off the handle, especially in comparing you to shizzle and picking on your grammar, because i was a bit drunk and in a pissy mood, but i find to my dismay much of what i said being confirmed.  you really are losing it, and it looks worse now to me sober than it did last night drunk.  you're stuck in your same mantras and you're not hearing anyone, and that isn't just restricted to beyond.  and you really are starting to remind me of shizzle because of your constant emphasis on grossly oversimplified interpretations of class conflict, you just haven't degenerated into violent language like he did.

trust me, when a marxist tells you you're bringing class into it too much, you should sit up and take notice.  obviously i'm not the only one who sees it. 

While Romney doesn't use Federal assistance with his health care, I'll bet every dollar I'm worth that he got Federal assistance elsewhere through business and personal transactions. I bet he pays a lot of money to the accountants to know every loop hole.

That's why he said, "I pay what I'm supposed to pay" because he knows he is paying less than other people.

I pay payroll tax too, except instead of paying half of it I pay the full amount in what is called the "self employment tax". The payroll tax is completely separate issue from the income tax. It goes into a separate fund and the amount of benefits you receive is directly related to how much you paid in.

Unless you are in the top income brackets there is no way you are paying 40-50% unless you are including state and local taxes (which it might surprise you, but I pay those too and I'm sure Mitt does as well.) If you are self employed the tax is 13.3% for the first $110k (usually it is 15.3% but temporarily cut for 2012 for everyone).  For the self employment tax, Mitt will pay $12,441.30 this year. I'm going to be a little less because I'm not going to be cracking $100k this year. For you to be at a 50% tax rate you would have to be in the top tax bracket (35% + 15.3%= 50.3%) which means you have an income of $388,350+ congratulations you are in the top 1%. 

But to balance the budget we all need to be paying 30% in addition to the payroll tax, you can't just include that in there because that money is for a separate fund. So yes, most people need to be actually paying 45.3% if they are self employed or 37.65% if they are employed by someone else. Which means that the only people paying that right now are people who bring home more than $178,650 if they are single or $217,450 if they are married, which means you are well within the top 5% (The top 5% cutoff is at $154,643)   

not really I just pay on the gross twice - payroll and income taxes take about a third each. Not going to go into great detail on my wages but it's in the low to mid 5 digits (nowhere near the six digits the GOP considers middle class). Haven't gotten a refund in years

As for your statement about Mitt let me make a small correction - replace "will pay" with "is supposed to pay".

Are you saying that I do not pay payroll taxes??? Are you saying that Mitt doesn't? Because you are flat wrong. Take a look at his tax return http://images.politico.com/global/2012/09/mitt_and_ann_romney_2011_1040.html 

the self-employment tax (which is the self employed equivalent of payroll tax) is on line 56 of his 1040. He paid it in 2010, 2011 and will again in 2012. 

Tax attorneys are not going to get you around the payroll tax. Mitt pays the max every year, if he doesn't he is guilty of obvious tax fraud that the computers will pick up instantly- which would be a rather stupid risk for such a small amount of money for him. The payroll tax is designed exactly the way all income taxes should be. 

Nice dancing. So are you accusing Mitt of hiring illegals? 

1. Yes you did specifically mention Mittens by name. This whole thing started when I responded to your whining about being double taxed when I pointed out that I pay the same taxes and that Mitt does as well. You responded with a snarky "Mitt is supposed to pay" to which I provided evidence that Mitt pays the amount I claimed he does. 

2. Yes, people commit tax fraud in a variety of ways. A tax attorney isn't going to help you commit fraud as they face far more severe punishment than the client (losing their whole business). Tax fraud occurs across all income levels but I defy you to provide evidence that a tax fraud among the rich is significant. Most of the wealthy pay their taxes and do not commit fraud. Of course there are the Wesley Snipes of the world and they face significant punishment when caught. Politicians like Mitt in particular pay their taxes because they publish their returns. Mitt's return had far fewer deductions than mine and I suspect that is simply because he was running for office. No doubt during other years he takes far more deductions that are perfectly legal. Your insinuations that somehow the rich (personified by Mitt) are somehow evading their tax burden is complete bullshit that bears no relation with reality. 

I'd have to say that I second that opinion as well.

Apologies for not being more specific. I did not mean to say that the number of people paying folks under the table was significant. I was noting the tendency for them to not notice some of the more egregious offenders until the amount of money they were losing got to a significant amount.

Kind of like them not really paying attention to Kent Hovind's tax evasion until it hit about a half million dollars.

apologies to all for getting into this in the first place. It seems I should just live the rich alone.

I accuse Mitt and his friends of using every trick in the book to avoid paying 35% on his income by calling it everything else but income and at the same time supporting legislation that makes 13% (and even that is a streatch delivered by his camp that counts charitable donations) effective taxation possible. I blame Mitt for social dumping practices blatantly used by the companies he headed. I blame Mitt and his friends for poisoning the public discourse with shameless and wall-to-wall lies about themselves, the economic situation we're in, the social policies and healthcare challenges we face and just about everything else under the sun. The outrageous part is that most of this, if not all, is leagal and whatever isn't leagal, will be "not looked at backwards" by Obama's fuck-the-poor administration. They are drowning the legislative branches in corporate money on federal and state level and have institutionalized corruption.

You may present us with shit nicely, but that doesn't make it smell any better. Corruption is not legal if the corrupt politicians pass laws declaring it legal, if the DAs don't do their job and if regulators have been defunded to oblivion and are now basically just waiting for the lucrative position in the private sphere as a reward for being good boys in FDA, SEC, FCC etc. The rich have taken this several thousand steps too far with everything from pocketing worker productivity increase since 1984 for themselves and dick for the working class, over too-big-to-fail, divide-and-conquer propaganda of race vs race, women vs men, you name it, to the outrageous too-big-to-jail LAIBOR, HSBC and countless other scandals.

This is what autocracy in the 21st century looks like. Corporations are absolute tyranies and now they run the US government and it is costing lives in the US and world wide. People are mad. I am mad. The rich are inviting disaster, because they have put themselves above the law. I don't know whether you are one of them, a useful idiot or just being a dick, but it's just about time to choose sides.