My Conversation with TWD39
Offline My first message:
TWD39, you don't seem like the kind of person who normally insults others. If this is true, why do you make an exception for atheists? And why do you so often apply these insults to atheists in general, as if we're all somehow identical?
TWD39's response:
No, I'm actually a really nice guy. I go off on atheists because I have a low tolerance for rude and disrespectful people. I can't stand people that take pleasure in mocking and belittling others. I was treated as such from the very beginning. Sure, I could respond in a less snarky fashion, but it wouldn't make a difference. I want to reflect back to the atheist the exact tactics and behavior they use on me. The arrogance and refusal to examine or accept evidence for example.
My reply:
So, you mimic behaviors you detest to show others how irritating such behaviors are? An interesting approach, I must say. However, it will only work if you (eventually) stop mimicking those behaviors, as well as explain why you started.
Thank you for answering my first question, I think I understand now. What I really don't understand, however, is why you continue to make statements assuming all atheists behave in an identical manner. I can assure you that they don't, and I can provide examples if you'd like.
My second message:
You have not yet answered my second private message (sent on October 7), and you failed to respond to many of my public posts addressed specifically to you. You respond regularly to jcgadfly, and he is less polite to you than I; he also asks longer questions.
Would you care to give me the real reason you don't answer my posts/messages anymore?
TWD39 did not respond to my reply or to my second message.
To all: What are your thoughts on this conversation? Why do you think TWD39 stopped responding?
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The mystery is solved! TWD is male! I can't believe you have been sitting on this important intelligence all this time.
My thought is that TWD is a liar who for some twisted reason wanted people to be rude and disrespectful to him. Perhaps some sort of masochistic tendency or some desire to have preconceived notions of atheists vindicated, maybe to repost on some theist forum and say "see what those evil atheists said about me!". In the original thread started by TWD people were initially rather nice. Several people have attempted to have polite discussions and when TWD complained about the rudeness and quantity of questions several people suggested setting up a 1 vs 1 debate. As you observed, TWD regularly ignored the polite questioners and obsessed over those who used a more blunt approach. IMO TWD did so to change the subject when a line of questioning became too difficult to offer any arguments against.
TWD stopped responding because you were one of the polite ones. Perhaps if you had included a few expletives and some mockery TWD would have responded.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
I agree
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
You've discovered the Achilles heel of a forum like this, and the very reason why so many smart and eloquent members eventually just give up and leave, imo.
Certain theists will always go looking for anything they can interpret as "offensive", before they even bother reading the replies.
They post a slightly provocative question, and they'll get ten or so people ignoring the provocation and giving them a well thought-out and respectful reply.
But there will always be that one guy who's reached the end of his patience and who will respond to the provocation in no uncertain terms. (I have been that guy. Sorry)
Guess who they focus on.
What follows is weeks of inane bickering, while the people who put time and effort into reaching out to the theist simply get ignored....until they give up.
And there you go : Another pigeon wins a chess match.
We all know this. We've seen it happen too many times.
Unless we become more aware of this, it's going to keep happening.
Any theist who tries to pull this shtick again should be called on it the second it happens.
And any atheist who's at the end of his patience should know when to bow out.
(Btw, another way to get them to respond is to dumb yourself down a bit. Pretend to be less intelligent than you actually are, and they'll be on you like white on rice)
(Edit : Just remembered : It's actually possible to be extremely polite and almost painfully respectful to these people, and STILL get accused of being a mean-spirited, foul-mouthed degenerate. If you're talking to one of those, it's best to give up)
I confess to being guilty of doing that shit from time to time. Asking a rather dumb question, knowing their going to give me a retard answer and then doing the : But wait a minute, I don't understand, if you could explain to me how ....
You get the idea. It's probably a somewhat underhanded tact on my part, and I agree the minute that we see someone is not interested in a true discussion, but wants to preach and bait, the kiddie gloves should come off.
I was real respectful to TWD in his first post and even said that I had no problem with him believing in god if it gave his life meaning but that it did not work for me.
But, I lost total patience when it became a bunch of " all atheists are" and "typical atheist reaction" and "atheist have to resort to rude behavior" and "I provide proof but like a typical atheist, you ignore it" crap.
I generally will show respect to anyone, but when they start that type of bullshit, I stop being interested in being respectful.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Brief comment :
July 19th, 2012 -- Twd39 direct quote: " . . I owe you nothing".
It would be so nice to be able to take a much kinder, friendlier, and more respectful tone with TWD39. However, TWD39 has clearly shown no discrimination between one person and another. In a board made of up individuals (go figure). To Twd39'S own regret & harm. TWD39 must be very self-important in TWD39's little world by the immaturity coming out of TWD39. Like the "I owe you nothing" is about all that needs to be quoted (when you come down to it). Too Frankly, She has acted like someone who needs to own up to the reality of a clear lack of maturity and not knowing how to respond, behind that "god honoring" front and irrational protestations, as an adherent. This may be solely unfair and unduly harsh because there were signs of a willingness to interact differently towards the end. By some revealing remarks, 'she' might have been hurt and scared and lashing out was the result. That is assuming there wasnt a missed Trollish behaviour at work, being exhibited, all along. Hard to say, it's a mixed bag. Nevertheless, Twd39 never got it. Twd39 initially didnt like harsh speech which was unpleasant. Might have been too emotional for the board. Much of what happened with TWD39 initial couple of months is its' own fault as anyone's. Twd39 has never shown the willingness to even recognize. I for one am glad Twd39 came by and could learn to look forward to more positive interactions in the future with 'Pa'. A positive is she(he) performed her function amazingly; and I got to Pre-Order a book out of the whole experience, (I would not have known about otherwise). Male or female still unsure.
~Dana
p.p.s. -- Twd39 never got!! Words have a tendency to linger on any message-board. So, Keep walking!
Nope, I really don't think it's underhanded at all, because they simply don't leave you any other choice. If you take them seriously, they ignore you. React to their provocation, and you're the "typical" atheist. What else are we supposed to do ?
What they keep forgetting is that, despite everything, we want to talk to them. They just don't seem very interested in talking to us. The sheer number of ignored, expletive-free posts in any of those threads proves as much.
re :: Trends ??
Sept. 14th or 19th 2012 {jcgadfly wrote}
Well, I admit that you have got a pretty good point there. I was using this tact with Fonzie (or whatever his name is) for a little while and finally just got bored with the game and said screw it, this is going nowhere.
With TWD, his opening post was about turning back negativity. I didn't use the same tact. I responded by saying that if he believed that god gave him these "gifts" that was fine by me, but that I did not believe it and was not a negative person by nature. Two posts later, I get a bunch of " typical, rude atheist behavior, proves that atheists are not good people" (almost his exact words). I tried to be tactful again, got ignored, and then had to read that same stereotype a few times over. I just lost all patience after that.
Like you said : I WANT to talk to theists, I want to debate with them, I want them to come up with an argument that has not been beat to death that will actually challenge me. Sadly enough, it is few and far between that one actually comes on here that doesn't either turn into an ad hominem slinging troll when they can't win or start acting petulant.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
He doesn't give a shit about the conversation? I mean he might be tired of the subject or he might not have any thing to say?
I often just quit reading threads which I know go on and on about a subject I don't care about. So if some one like you posts a message like this, maybe he isn't reading the treads?
As for your private message, that is a different story.
What we're getting at here, is that, more often than not, they "get tired of the subject" just when we start asking questions they don't want to answer, or even worse, when we start answering questions they really hoped would have stumped the evil atheists.
IOW, they somehow always get tired of the subject just when things get interesting.
It can get a wee bit frustrating at times.
(And then there's the whole absurd notion of being lectured on morality by a person who judges you as lacking in that regard, without even having met you. Yeah, that never gets old)
Yeah, then there is that too.
That gets REAL old. I get SO tired of the "without a god where does your morality come from" bullshit. I always ask them : "So, if you found out there was no god, would you abandon your family ? Start robbing banks ? Commit rape and thrill-killing ? Do you have to have something watching you in order to be good ? "
They almost never answer.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
Oh, haha, sorry about that.
Yea, TWD responded to my private message using a gmail account that listed a definitely male name.
Such behavior seems rather dishonest to me, though. Of course, if you don't mind being dishonest...
Haha, yea...maybe I'll send him an email telling him how evil and twisted his god is.
You're definitely right about that. I just wish it wasn't so hard to have a productive conversation with these people...
You know, that's a really good idea! I'll have to try it sometime...
It's also really important to figure out if they think they could be wrong. If they don't, you shouldn't waste your time talking with them.
Ugh, I think I've heard that "you need God for morality to mean anything" bullshit in almost every atheist-theist debate I've encountered. I think I'll try your approach next time, harleysportster.