I would hardly describe over 800 artillery rounds as a "handful", nor are the weapons they are using "homemade" they use 35-50 kg rockets that have a range of up to 20 km. They have also fired somewhere around half a dozen Fajr 5's which boasts a 175kg warhead and have a range of up to 75km (those are the ones that have been shot down by the "Iron Dome&quot. The weapons are dated in the sense that they are pretty much based on cold war era technology and are extremely inaccurate, while the Israelis have a clear technological advantage. That doesn't mean they are not dangerous.

 Civilians die in war. If you don't want civilians to die, don't start wars. 

And I am damned sure glad Hillary and Obama are handling this and not you. You'd get us into another war.

jcgadfly wrote:

Can we start by taking the business aspect out of it, i.e. get US defense contractors to stop selling arms to Israel? Hard to stop a one-sided conflict if that side keeps getting resupplied.

If Egypt were supplying missiles to Hamas, they'd be getting better stuff. This makes me think that the Palestinian missiles are mostly home-made.

I have no problem cutting out all foreign aid to all countries, there is no reason for us to give money away simply because we have it (especially since we don't actually have it). OTOH I see no reason to cut our military ties with Israel as far as cooperative R&D, purchasing weapons from them, selling weapons to them and engaging in cooperative training exercises. The war over there isn't going to stop no matter what we do, so we might as well profit from it.  

jcgadfly wrote:

Beyond Saving wrote:

jcgadfly wrote:

Can we start by taking the business aspect out of it, i.e. get US defense contractors to stop selling arms to Israel? Hard to stop a one-sided conflict if that side keeps getting resupplied.

If Egypt were supplying missiles to Hamas, they'd be getting better stuff. This makes me think that the Palestinian missiles are mostly home-made.

I have no problem cutting out all foreign aid to all countries, there is no reason for us to give money away simply because we have it (especially since we don't actually have it). OTOH I see no reason to cut our military ties with Israel as far as cooperative R&D, purchasing weapons from them, selling weapons to them and engaging in cooperative training exercises. The war over there isn't going to stop no matter what we do, so we might as well profit from it.  

In other words you have no problem spending money we don't have on Israel because a few defense contractors make some money? The US certainly isn't making money on the deal.

Have you branched out into defense contracting?

No, I said I have no problem stopping foreign aid- which means stop giving them (or anyone) money for no reason. If they choose to continue purchasing weapons from us with THEIR money, I have no problem with that. Nor do I have a problem purchasing weapons and munitions from them that they make if we need it. (although I do think that our military budget can be cut back dramatically, I leave the decision of exactly which weapons we should stop buying and which we should continue to the folks in charge)

IOW, the problem I have with the current situation is the step where we give them money, not with the step of selling them the weapons. All we need to do is shred the coupons that we give them to turn around and buy weapons for near free. 

jcgadfly wrote:

Like I said before, continually resupplying one side with arms is a damned silly way to stop a one sided armed conflict. See, I'm actually interested in stopping the conflict instead of making one group of god-botherers badasses. After all, we established earlier that the Hamas attacks aren't doing anything of significance and they're not getting resupplied.

How do you propose to stop it? 

 

 The Palestinians would and have fought with sticks and rocks. Even if you removed all weapons from both sides you'd still have people being hurt and killed. The cause of the conflict needs to be resolved - taking their toys away won't stop the hatred.

 I think that if Israel didn't have military advantage, that would hasten its invasion and occupation by its neighbours. It's not an accident it survives as it does with mortal enemies all around it.

And that's the rub. It's a stalemate, albeit uneven.

 

 

jcgadfly wrote:

You're assuming Israel has anything worth invading for. they don't.

Also, the only reason I can see that they have mortal enemies is their belligerence to them. It's not hard to have people pissed off at you when you go out of your way to piss them off.

The temple mount?

 I would love for you to cite me a single example in history where a war ended through both sides somehow being disarmed. 

Beyond Saving wrote:

 I would love for you to cite me a single example in history where a war ended through both sides somehow being disarmed. 

Not to butt in on the debate of others, but the Swedish–Novgorodian Wars in the 13th century were fought to a stalemate when both sides were effectively incapacitated by the outbreak of the Black Death.

 

  Yup, nothing like a bit of dark age conflict research to break the monotony of a working afternoon. Go nuts.

 

I take your original point though, however I would like to hope that it can eventually be solved in the same vein as Northern Ireland was, where everyone involved was so weary with bloodshed that peace became preferable for all. This would hopefully happen with fewer deaths than a shock and awe ending, though probably in a longer timeline.

To do this requires the willingness to concede certain points from both sides (Right of Palestine to exist, withdrawal of palestinian territories by Israeli settlers among other things) and a united front towards resolution from neighbours and involved parties over a sustained period. In my eyes there is no other (ethical) way.

 

A.D. 1348. A.M. 6856. Magnush, King of the Svei, sent to the men of 

Novgorod saying: " Send your philosophers 

to a conference, and I will send my own philosophers, that they 

may discuss about faith; they will ascertain whose faith is the 

better; if your faith is the better, then I will go into your faith, but 

if our faith is the better, you will go into our faith, and we shall all 

be as one man. But if you do not agree to uniformity, then I will 

come against you with all my forces." And Vladyka VasiU and 

Posadnik Fedor Danilovich and the Tysyatski Avraam and all the 

men of Novgorod having taken counsel together, repHed to Mag- 

nush: " If thou wishest to know whose is the better faith, ours or 

yours, send to Tsargrad^ to the Patriarch, for we received the Ortho- 

dox faith from the Greeks; but with thee we will not dispute about 

the faith. As to what grievances there may be between us, we will 

send about that to thee to the conference." And the men of 

Novgorod sent to Magnush the Tysyatski Avraam, Kuzma Tverdis- 

lav, and other Boyars. And Avraam and the others arriving at 

Orekhovets wished to go to Magnush, but Magnush was then on 

Berezov* island with all his forces. And the men of Orekhov beat 

with their foreheads to Avraam not to leave their town, but Kuzma 

Tverdislav with others went to Magnush; and Magnush replied to 

Kuzma: " I have no grievance whatever against you "; but he said 

thus: " Adopt my faith, or I will march against you with my whole 

force "; and he dismissed Kuzma and the others. On their return 

to Orekhovets they all shut themselves in the town, and Magnush 

came up against the town with his whole force, and began baptizing 

 

1 West of lake Ilmen. 

 

2 The places in these districts. 

- Constantinople. 

 

* " Birch-tree." 

 

 

 

142 THE CHRONICLE OF NOVGOROD 

 

the Izhera people into his own faith, and let loose his troops among 

those who refused baptism. And hearing that the king had turned 

his force on the Izhera people, the men of Novgorod sent Ontsifor 

Lukinits, Yakov Khotov and Mikhail Fefilatov^ against them with a 

small company^ and through the prayers of the Holy Mother of God, 

and with the help of St. Sophia and of the holy Martyrs Boris and 

Gleb, God aided Ontsifor; they killed 500, and others they took 

alive, and executed the traitors, and the men of Novgorod returned 

all well, having lost only three men. 

 

And Posadnik Fedor Danilovich with the lieutenants of the 

Veliki Knyaz and all the men of Novgorod and of Pleskov, with the 

whole of the Novgorod district and a few men of Novi-torg went to 

Ladoga, and to Knyaz Simeon Ivanovich they sent envoys, saying : 

" Come to us, Sire,^ to defend thy patrimony according to thy 

kissing of the Cross ; the king oiihe Sveiis coming against us. " And the 

'Veliki Knyaz Simeon replied to the men of Novgorod: " I come 

gladly to you." And after long delay the Knyaz went to Novgorod; 

but on reaching [the village of] Sitno from Torzhok, he turned back 

to Moscow, and sent his brother Ivan to Novgorod. And Knyaz 

Ivan came to Novgorod but did not go to the men of Novgorod at 

Ladoga. In the meanwhile King Magnush captured the town of 

Orekhovets on Transfiguration Day, and he seized Avraam and 

Kuzma with eight other Boyars, and let all the others go out of the 

town, and himself went away from it, leaving a force behind in 

Orekhovets. And Knyaz Ivan hearing of the capture of Orekhovets, 

by the Nemisy, went back from Novgorod without the benediction 

of the Vladyka, and not listening to the petition of the men of 

Novgorod. And the men of Novgorod went from Ladoga, and 

halted by Orekhovets. 

 

The same year there was a great plague in Novgorod; it came 

on us by God's loving kindness, and in His righteous judgment, 

death came upon people, painful and sudden, it began from Lady 

Day till Easter; a countless number of good people died then. 

These were the symptoms of that death: a man would spit blood 

and after three days he was dead. But this death did not visit 

Novgorod alone; I believe it passed over the face of all the land; 

and whom ever God commanded, that man died, and whomever 

he saved, him he admonished and punished, that the rest of our days 

we may live in the Lord virtuously and sinlessly. 

 

The same spring God inflicting it on account of our sins, and the 

devil acting with his help, and by the advice of wicked men, there 

was a great tumult in Novgorod; they took the Posadnik-ship from 

Ondreyan Zakharich, but not all Novgorod, only the Slavno quar- 

ter, and they gave the Posadnik-ship to Selivester Lentiev. And 

no small confusion arose in the Yaroslav Court and there was a 

fight : because the Slavno men had come up unexpectedly in arms, 

and dispersed the men from across the river^ who were without 

arms, and they attacked and robbed many nobles, and killed Ivan 

Borisov Likhinin. 

 

 

148 THE CHRONICLE OF NOVGOROD 

 

And then the two sides armed themselves against each other; 

the Sophia side sought to avenge the dishonour to its brothers, 

and the Slavno side fought for their hves and property. And they 

stood opposite to each other for three days, for the Slavno men had 

dismantled the bridge. And Vladyka Moisei came out from the 

monastery taking with him Olexei, and the Archimandrite and the 

Igumens, and blessed them, saying: " My children, do not cause 

strife among yourselves, exultation to the pagans, and devastation 

to the sacred churches and this place; engage not in battle." And 

they accepted his word, and dispersed; and they sacked Sehvester's 

villages, and many villages of the Slavno quarter were seized; 

and also many innocent people perished then. And they gave the 

Posadnik-'i\\\Y) to Mikita Matveyevich, and so they were reconciled. 

God did not suffer the devil utterly to exult, but Christianity was 

exalted to generation and generation. 

 

A.D. 1411. A.M. 6919. The Svei having come to make war took the 

Novgorod town of Tiversk; the men of 

Novgorod went quickly against the Svei only three days after this 

news, with Knyaz Simeon Olgerdovich; and having come to the 

Sveiski country they ravaged and burned their villages, and killed 

many Svei and captured others, and took and burned an outwork 

of Viborg on March 26, the day of the Festival of the Archangel 

Gabriel, and returned to Novgorod with a large number of captives. 

And the Voyevodas of the Novgorod troops were: Posadnik Yuri 

Ontsiforovits, Posadnik Foma Esifovits, Posadnik Alexander 

Fominits, Ivan Danilovits, Gregori Bogdanovits, Ofonos Esifov, 

Posadnik's son, Mikhailo Ivanovits, Posadnik's son, Andrei Ivano- 

vits, Ivan Fedorovits, Posadnik's son, Foma Troshcheikin, Dmitri 

Ivanovits, Esip Philipovits, Avram Stefanovits. 

 

The same year the Murman Svei''- came in force by surprise to the 

Dvina^ beyond the Volok, to Nenoksa, plundering and burning, 

killing people and making many captives. And the people of the 

Dvina having heard, came up quickly, slew some and sent about 

forty to Novgorod, putting to death their Voyevodas Ivor and Peter 

and a third one; a few others jumping into their boats escaped.

 Albrecht of Mecklenburg, King of Sweden from 1364 to 1389, was born c. 1340th He was the second son of Duke Albrecht I of Mecklenburg (whom reigned in this country as prince from 1329 to 1348, as Duke from 1348 to 1379) and the Swedish king Magnus Eriksson's sister Euphemia. At the invitation of the King of Magnus Eriksson and his son Hakan discontented Swedish nobles fell upon the two mecklenburgske Dukes, supported by several German princes, their relatives kings of Sweden, 1363rd Stockholm and Kalmar, who were met by Germans, opened its doors to them, and Albrecht Jr. hailed illegally as king at Mora things, 1364th Now, we had one eight -year civil war. In the neighborhood of Enkoping became Magnus and Hakan defeated by the Germans, and the former taken prisoner by Albrecht, 1365th On Håkans side stood now King of Denmark Valdemar Atterdag on mecklenburg arnes his cities and several north German princes. Mecklenburg Arne were given, however, a more difficult enemy in the Swedish peasantry. Albrecht sounded namely completely lead themselves with the Germans and most of his cunning and hersklystne father. To these strangers förpantades vast stretches of Sweden, and the people suffered enormously under their oppression. It rose derför and supported Hakan, who also came close to winning, since he with an army encamped in Norrmalm in Stockholm, 1371st But the Swedish men gave Albrecht Now one more effectual succor, however, since the first aftvungit him a royal assurance, which put almost all the power in the hands of the Council. In this way, a peace came into being, through which Magnus frigafs. Albrecht kept the Swedish crown, but Varmland and Dal and some parts of the actual Vestergötland succeeded he would never take. However, Albrecht now completely dependent upon the Council and its powerful man, Bo Jonsson Grip, and every view beröfvades him, even if he liked it, put a limit on the great lords sjelfsvåld and lawless rampage. After Bo Jonsson's death, in 1380, the king made ​​yet an attempt to restore the monarchy. He wanted to make himself the guardian of Bo Jonsson's widow and children and is said to have thought of a withdrawal of nobility goods. This had the consequence that the mighty men, who by Bo Jonsson were appointed as executors of his will, turned to Queen Margaret of Denmark with a prayer for help. Albrecht passed over to Germany and hemtade a German here. But at Falkirk became his defeat by Margaret and along with his son Erik taken prisoner, Febr. 1389th They were kept imprisoned to 1395, when they lössläpptes to be of use after three years either pay more than a sum of money or öfverlemna Stockholm to Margaret. Because of this treaty took Margaret Stockholm possession, 1398th Albrecht proceeded to Mecklenburg, but his supporters, known Vitalianerna (German hijackers, which gets its name of it, they succoured Stockholm with necessaries of life, viktualier ), captured Gotland and held themselves qvar der to 1398, when the island was occupied by German words. In monetary compensation was induced at last Albrecht and German words to give up the island, and this öfverlemnades 1408 for King Erik of Pomerania. Albrecht died in 1412 at the monastery Dobberan in Mecklenburg.