I need solid advice on how to convince my Muslim girlfriend to leave Islam.
Offline Hello, I am desperately looking for help, I only just confronted her yesterday on a most racional basis I got from learning what Muslim apologists say, breaking sham after sham each word of theirs and I insulted the prophet, I said how much is wrong and all that, but she is certainly afraid of judging the facts for in her opinion she is no-one to judge, I told her to get a grip of her life and not let her responsibilities fall upon Islam alone, she started crying, said nothing, and then I had to be all lovey with her to calm her down, after that we had no more discussion, but I think she is really biased about it and I am afraid she is holding it secret, I think I must get her to talk to me about Islam, because she doesn't even try, I always talked to her about Atheism, but she never talked about Islam, is it because it is so refutable?
Thanks in advance for any sound advice you may have as to save her from the shackles of ignorance.
It takes a drop of shit to ruin the wine, but a drop of wine won't make a pile of shit any better.
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I'm afraid there's no magic formula or a set script you could read to her that makes her stop being a muslim.
There's the CEMB, of course, who has more experience with this kind of thing : http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=97a5d99628e4d7dbe516f2fb6df959fe;www
And what type of muslim are we talking about here ? Born in a muslim country or a recent convert ? Because, I have to tell you, what you're asking her to do here, could be pretty damn dangerous.
If she never talks about islam, why do you worry? If someone's personal beliefs do not impact you, do you have the right to try and force them to change their beliefs?
Remember that islam is often paired up with family ties; even if she has got personal doubts, it may be very hard for her to come out and be public about them for fear of insulting her family.
When you went into this relationship you must have known she was a muslim - you're now changing the goalposts and trying to change her after you've become important to her.
Don't get me wrong here, I am as antitheist as they come, but going down the route of heated rationalist arguments is very unlikely to make her suddenly think rationally. A tenant of Islam is that it accepts other religions and does not try to change others' beliefs - in this case I think you may be better off doing the same - if you love her and would rather be with her than end up hurting her so much you break up.
Play the long game - live next to her without god, show her by example that it's not a necessary attachment, but don't expect her to change. Love her anyway.
Yeah we are speaking of a Muslim with a European nationality, born and grown in Europe, with family-ties by her mothers side to Islam and her devotion is fairly recent, she scolded me alot for smoking mj back in the day and I stoped, it was a fair deal I dropped the mj for the love of my life, can't she drop religion? it's far worse, c'mon, on a high you know you're high and when it's over it's over, religion doesn't stop until it goes over the top, besides, if it wasn't hurtful to her I wouldn't mind, but she has become more conformist, more easy-living, and dependent on her mother, whilst I took the fight for gaining her love and all that, I became important to her after lots of struggle and she did nothing in all that time apart of being negative, all my good acts for her spoke for me, she didn't give me more than thin-air, not that I wanted anything in return, but I would have loved just some simpathy and consideration, instead she has become a submissive whore of god, and if I didn't love her, I would tell her to go her way, on her "straight path" directly to Mecca, learn all the bla-bla and bullshit that would bias her even more and i'd lose the crazy girl I was initially in love with, she let her guard down while I am still fighting for the sake of both us, besides it's a shame, we are both highly intelectual with high iq, but since we are together she has put up with stupid ideals, You don't start building a house until the fundament is built, if you do it the other way round you just find a chunk-a-block of obstruction blocking your way, that's her problem, she has never devoloped any character and she thinks she is looking for her "inner-self", but all she's doing is going round like a fish in a fishtank, and next summer she will be also on a huge human sheep operated merry go around in Mecca on her Hajj
It takes a drop of shit to ruin the wine, but a drop of wine won't make a pile of shit any better.
Can I ask how old she is?
You seem very much in love, so I understand why you're so anxious about this, but GodsUseForAMosquito has a point : This is mostly about family for her.
Still...you say she's intelligent, so have you tried asking her opinion of how sharia law treats women ?
As for the hajj, that can be more of a cultural thing. I have a few muslim friends who went, and they didn't come back more religious than they left. Some of them were actually quite disgusted by the commercialism of it all. Basically, it's a tourist trap.
And btw, this : "it was a fair deal I dropped the mj for the love of my life, can't she drop religion?" is a fair question. Has she answered it ?
I am 18 and she is 19, she is intelligent as I mentioned, but she began evading it for the sura that the woman is deficient in intelligence and spiritualism (ironically that's just what she's doing lately!) it is happening for family reasons and she wants it to be something personal, but I told her from the very beginning, our love harbours no secrets to both of us, initially everything was as agreed upon (and we did some filthy things together ;D) it seems to me that spirituallity is a question more delicate for her than for example having me creep up her behind, I asked her why and she said she's afraid of freedom, something that smited me, I told her that I would kill whoever inspired that shit upon her, what hinders me from this battle is that she often gets "blocked" speaking (she once admitted to me some anomalies, she sees lights and hears voices and has a multiple personality disorder, I think she's just struggling, so I want to either bear her grievings with her or smite at the shackles that hold her in that zombie sort of concious) anyways, she wants to "trascend" and "nuture herself" become "strong" so I am not so worried for her leaving this relationship, she's compromised by that conviction, if she leaves me she will regret it anyway.
It takes a drop of shit to ruin the wine, but a drop of wine won't make a pile of shit any better.
I think godsuse nailed it on the head. Trying to get into any kind of aggressive debate with her or directly questioning her beliefs is more likely to simply cause conflict than to persuade her and I don't know how long you have been in this relationship but trust me, with any relationship comes plenty of conflict you don't really need to create more.
I was married to a catholic for seven years and by the end she was an atheist. Probably the most influential thing I did with her was we read the bible together. From first page to last we took turns reading it out loud (ah the way we torture ourselves for love). Paraphrasing Penn Jillette, please read the bible the world needs more atheists.
What is your religious history? Do you come from a belief or have you always been an atheist? I think that if you approach religious discussions with the attitude of wanting to learn more about her beliefs, rather than one of trying to show her how stupid her beliefs are you will get further. If you haven't read the Koran perhaps you ought to read it together. There is a fairly good chance that she has never actually read the whole thing. Take a genuine interest in her faith and try to be more questioning and less judging/argumentative in your discussions on the subject. Leaving a religion one has been raised in is something that can only be done by her. The best thing you can do is be there to support her if and when she makes the decision to question her faith.
As for the "I gave up mj, why can't she give up religion" my advice is in any relationship don't expect people to change and don't look at it like horse trading- that will only lead to resentment and anger long term. Love her faults and all, don't expect her to ever change for the better and if she does, well that is just icing on the cake. If you decide to change some of your habits because you know she doesn't like them, that is your decision don't turn it into her forcing you to stop.
I don't know you and all I have is your few posts here and given the limitations of internet communication I could be dead wrong but it comes across that you already have a little resentment over giving up the mj. I suggest you sit and really think about it and decide if giving it up is something you really want to do for yourself because if you continue to consider it as something you did for her those feelings of resentment are not going to disappear and when other conflicts arise later in your relationship those feelings might fester and come out in negative ways.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Yeah, that sometimes works. So has she read the qu'ran ? I can give you some pretty sick surahs, if you want.
My belief background is changing by the day and by the end of it all everything I said to believe in is different at every given moment, that drive is what keeps me growing, I did lots of crazy things since I was 15, but I always hated religion, then I was out and about in paganism, pantheism, and even Islam at one point of my life, but then I dropped it after reading the Quir'an for myself, I wouldn't mind reading the Quir'an with her, but the problem is the Quir'an is not like the Bible or Torah, it is even more difficult to question, one thing I am going to do is the Shahadah to be considered a Muslim by the community for in the case I want to marry her and she's already done the Shahadah I will have no impedement other than her mother starting to throw shit at me, wich by the time we get married won't matter a little bit, so I intend to do the Shahadah and I might even go to the extreme of going to Hajj with her at some point if I don't convince her earlier of the absurdity of Islam, why I don't want her to do Hajj with her mother is because she is the root of her education and apart from that, the Hajj money is Jizya anyways, that money goes to spreading the Islam by means of both violent and non-violent measures (good cop/bad cop?)
So far the only pressure is that if she goes to Morocco I might not have her back as her mother is worried that we have a relationship and she might force her to marriage on the basis of her preocupation (she's a crazy woman, I know both of them for 3 years already, and I know them better than anyone in my own family)
It takes a drop of shit to ruin the wine, but a drop of wine won't make a pile of shit any better.
DP
Ofcourse, make sure it can't be refuted on the basis of misunderstanding or wrong translation though, she pitches alot on that point, thanks in advance.
It takes a drop of shit to ruin the wine, but a drop of wine won't make a pile of shit any better.
It's hard to give any good advice through a message board because every individual case is different, but it sounds like she's not ready to consider atheism - although she seems westernised in many aspects of her life. If she lives with her parents, then she'll still have that familial attachment which is unbelievably hard to break away from. From what you say her mother is islamic while her father isn't, so this may, in time, be enough to sow those seeds of doubt in her mind.
What I'd council you to do is give her time - She needs to make these decisions whether the religion is working for her. Making your god disappear is an unbelievably scary prospect for someone (there are many members on these boards who have gone through this process, and most took a long time to get there - in their twenties they'd tell you they were paid-up bible-bashing fundies.. some didn't leave it behind until 20 years+ later.) and cannot be done straight after an argument about the prophet, even if it is with someone she loves. The more you bash down her beliefs the more likely she is to take refuge in them. The more you support her, the more likely she will be to feel that her god isn't needed... but there is no guarantee she'll ever fully leave it and you should consider this outcome carefully if you have such vitriol towards it. What is more important - the person or that person's beliefs, and can you separate them?The way you describe her sounds like she suffers from a mental disorder, perhaps even schzophrenia; I recomend you take her to a mental health professional for evaluation.
What do you mean by "we did some filthy things together" ? Do you mean sex? Sex is NOT dirty; for 2 people in love it is normal. Perhaps you should be evaluated for your attitude on love and sex. Good luck to your future and keep us posted please.
"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
I think he means filthy in a good way..
Next hajj is in october 2013, right ? That gives you some breathing room at least.
And yes, they're not really allowed to question the qu'ran. That's why surahs like this one can be a deal-breaker for most people :
(65:4) The waiting period of those of your women who have lost all expectation of menstruation shall be three months12 in case you entertain any doubt; and the same shall apply to those who have not yet menstruated.13 As for pregnant women, their waiting period shall be until the delivery of their burden.14 Allah will create ease for him who fears Allah. The waiting period only applies if the marriage has been consummated. 'Those who have not yet menstruated' is referring to girls who have not yet reached puberty, the Quran allows you to consummate the marriage of girls who haven't had their periods yet and they can be divorced too.
Shahadah's not a big deal, so yeah, do it if you think that might smooth things over with her mom.
On the other hand, I'm kinda in a similar situation (I'm 19 as well, and I'm in love with a christian who I'm planning to marry), so maybe I'm not the best person to be handing out impartial advice.
Yeah infact I did :/, really I take no offense, I understand the quarrel, I actually consider sex and love a beautiful and gracious thing, I meant filthy from the prospects of Islam as we are not a married couple, wich is just weak to consider that filthy just because of stupid old family virtues/values and traditions (wich I must say is something I always piss upon openly until everybody likes the piss more than the values and end up liking it)
It takes a drop of shit to ruin the wine, but a drop of wine won't make a pile of shit any better.
Sorry for the double posting, I am in a rush as I am about to leave so I want to respond everything quickly.
Any advice is welcome, everything can inspire so thank you for your advice even if you don't consider yourself the best advisor in this situation, there is in fact breathing room and I am confident something might just happen, a miracle for example, say I win the lottery (probably not) or I can just convince her and tell her to screw her mom.
It takes a drop of shit to ruin the wine, but a drop of wine won't make a pile of shit any better.
Okay, then first of all, here's a good site for tafsir, so there won't be any arguments about translation and such :
http://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=1
Does she read arabic, btw ? If she does, she might like this list of contradictions in the qu'ran :
http://www.il7ad.com/smf/index.php/topic,75776.0.html
If not, here's an english version : http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/contra/by_name.html
Now for some unsavory and questionable surahs and hadiths :
Torturous punishment
Bhukari: Volume 4, Book 52, Number 261: Narrated Anas bin Malik:
A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk." Allah's Apostle said, "I recommend that you should join the herd of camels." So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and whey were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died (Abu Qilaba, a sub-narrator said, "They committed murder and theft and fought against Allah and His Apostle, and spread evil in the land."
Sex with married slaves
Surah 4:24 Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess.
Ibn Kathir- The phrase "and those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses , whom Allaah has given to you" [al-Ahzaab 33:50] means, it is permissible for you take concubines from among those whom you seized as war booty. He took possession of Safiyyah and Juwayriyah and he freed them and married them; he took possession of Rayhaanah bint Sham?oon al-Nadariyyah and Maariyah al-Qibtiyyah, the mother of his son Ibraaheem (peace be upon them both), and they were among his concubines, may Allaah be pleased with them both. Tafseer Ibn Katheer, 3/500
Sex with captives
Abu Sai 'd al-Khudri said : The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur'anic verse: (Sura 4:24) "And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those (captives) whom your right hands possess." That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period.(1479)" Abu Dawud vol.2 no.2150 p.577
"After the distribution of the spoils of war a man may have intercourse with the female slave after passing one menstrual period, if she is not pregnant. If she is pregnant one should wait till she delivers the child. This is the view held by Malik, al-Shafi'i and Abu Thawr. Abu Hanifah holds that if both the husband and wife are captivated together, their marriage tie still continues; they will not be separated. According to the majority of scholars, they will be separated. Al-Awza-i maintains that their marriage tie will continue till they remain part of the spoils of war. If a man buys them, he may separate them if he desires, and cohabit with the female slave after one menstrual period. (Awn al-Ma'bud II.213)" Note that Mohammed married Safiyah right after the battle. Abu Dawud vol.2 footnote 1479 p.577-578.
Bukhari - Volume 7, Book 62, Number 137: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: We got female captives in the war booty and we used to do coitus interruptus with them. So we asked Allah's Apostle about it and he said, "Do you really do that?" repeating the question thrice, "There is no soul that is destined to exist but will come into existence, till the Day of Resurrection."
Buhkari - Volume 8, Book 73, Number 68: Narrated 'Abdullah bin Zam'a: The Prophet forbade laughing at a person who passes wind, and said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then he may embrace (sleep with) her?" And Hisham said, "As he beats his slave" (Indicating slaves were not treated well and can be subjected to harsh treatment)
Bukhari - Volume 5, Book 59, Number 637: Narrated Buraida: The Prophet sent 'Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (of the booty) and I hated Ali, and 'Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave-girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, "Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)?" When we reached the Prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, "O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumlus."
Sex with slaves girls is halal, a master is allowed to beat his slave girl if he/she is disobedient. A slave girl may be beaten if she refuses sex to her master just as a wife may be beaten if she refuses sex with her husband. Both acts are halal.
No justice
Book 38, Number 4348:
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a wife who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it.
He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.
He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.
Slandering the Prophet is enough for a death sentence. Vigilante attacks are approved by the Prophet. No trial is needed to prove the woman's innocence. The prophet takes the man for his word, he does not do any background checks to make sure the man was telling the truth. So much for a fair trial
Tortured for treasure
Kinana al-Rabi, who had the custody of the treasure of Banu Nadir, was brought to the apostle who asked him about it. He denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kinana, "Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?" He said "Yes". The apostle gave orders that the ruin was to be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked him about the rest he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr Al-Awwam, "Torture him until you extract what he has." So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then the apostle delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head, in revenge for his brother Mahmud
Left handed people
Sahih Muslim Book 23 Book of Drinks- Kitab al Ashriba Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: Do not eat with your left hand, for the Satan eats with his left hand. Book 023, Number 5008: Ibn 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: When any one of you intends to eat (meal), he should eat with his right hand. and when he (intends) to drink he should drink with his right hand, for the Satan eats with his left hand and drinks with his left hand.
Racism
I heard the Apostle say: Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!' He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks. Allah sent down concerning him: To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom." [9:61] "Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey's.'Ishaq 243
Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the Africans color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks. Tabari II 11
Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair. Noah prayed that the hair of Ham's descendants would not grow beyond their ears, and that whenever his descendants met Shem?s, the latter would enslave them.Tabari II 21
Enslaving an innocent child
Dawud: Book 11, Number 2126:Narrated Basrah: A man from the Ansar called Basrah said: I married a virgin woman in her veil. When I entered upon her, I found her pregnant. (I mentioned this to the Prophet). The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: She will get the dower, for you made her vagina lawful for you. The child will be your slave. When she has begotten (a child), flog her (according to the version of al-Hasan).
Mohammed, the dumbass
Book 1, Number 0067: Narrated AbuSa'id al-Khudri: I heard that the people asked the Prophet of Allah (peace_be_upon_him): Water is brought for you from the well of Buda'ah. It is a well in which dead dogs, menstrual clothes and excrement of people are thrown. The Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) replied: Verily water is pure and is not defiled by anything.
Bukhari - Volume 7, Book 71, Number 614 Narrated Abu Said: A man came to the prophet and said, My brother has got loose motions (diarrhea). The Prophet said, Let him drink honey. The man again (came) and said, I made him drink (honey) but that made him worse. The Prophet said, Allah has said the Truth, and the abdomen of your brother has told a lie.
Etc......
Seriously, this could go on for quite a while.
If want more, I will provide
Wait... You are an atheist and she is a muslim and you have been dating her for how long? Didn't you talk about this stuff when you first started dating.
I had a friend who dated a muslim girl, both of which were twenty years older than you/girlfriend are now, and they were constantly talking about their faith or lack of faith every day. It was a constant battle between them and her family.
His family was like, "Hey, cool, nice to meet you. What? Your a muslim? cool, very cool".
Her family was like, "Are you a muslim? What? Your an atheist? <looks glaringly at daughter, then walks out of the room with out saying "nice to meet you"". Mother says something to daughter in arabic and then tells my friend, "nice to meet you but you need to leave now".
This went on for a few months and my friend was asked by the father if he would convert. My friend was open minded and looked in to what it would take to convert over but there was more dogma than being a catholic. He loved her dearly but they parted company after about six months of dating.
I think you need to examine your own goals here to figure out if the relationship is worthwhile. If she is devoted on the path of being a muslim and you convince her to not follow her desires then you will later become the scapegoat for causing her to not follower her family's belief.
Seriously, why are you with her?
Welcome to the forum. This is going to be a process. I think rather than attacking her latent faith directly, your should try to change the way she thinks. Expose her to rational arguments and fallacious arguments, point out that arguments by insult and threat are irrational. Questions dogmatic belief in unproven assertions. Ask her to define god. To define supernatural. I'm interested in why a woman would embrace a doctrine that insults her intelligence. This is ad hominem fallacy. Women's intelligence is no different from men's generally speaking. You sound like a joyous non conformist, WhoHast. I hope it goes well for you two.
"Experiments are the only means of knowledge at our disposal. The rest is poetry, imagination." Max Planck
Thank you for your omens, I will do my best as to dyscord her and make her look both ways throughout her journey, I will never let her embrace dogma or discipline from the books, I will never let these books impede her, but everything is ok now I said i'll do the Shahadah so it won't matter if she does it, and I will make her regain judgement and responsibility, we agreed upon cherry-picking the good stuff as long as we also do the same with the rest of the religions, I convinced her of many things yesterday and I even convinced her to get high with me on the next possible occasion, so as long as I keep her confident and open-minded I guess the god delusion will not pose us any harm.
And thank you for all these Suras, I will definetly keep them at hand for our no-list, so I guess everything is possible, even making a god-dopey person gain rationale and objectiveness
It takes a drop of shit to ruin the wine, but a drop of wine won't make a pile of shit any better.