No.

Morals are dependent on the existence of emotional and physical pain--NOT on the existence of a god.

There are many times I have not done something I wanted to because it would have hurt someone.

My God's actions??? That's just like saying God made me do it.  God is Just.  If you make a choice, you pay the consequences for that choice... good or bad... By 'you' I mean we all..  

I believe he created the universe knowing all possible outcomes.  He knew what could be if things aren't done quite right and he knew what would be if things worked according to his plan. 

This tends to go into the omniscience omnipotent discussions.

Throughout history?  It wasn't always impossible... but the Bible does say all fall short of the glory of God... in plain English, the Bible foretells that no one will have been able to follow God's laws appropriately.  I think by the world we live in and the way we've been raised, it has become something that is too difficult at this time.  By this some word it as we're born into sin.  This is why God sent Jesus... He placed the laws there for man to follow... man had progressed to a point where the Laws became too difficult to follow and therefore He sent Jesus to take the punishment for us so that we may still have eternal life with our God if we choose. The wages of sin is death, but through Jesus we are 'born again' into life with God.   

did you need an answer?  If you prayed and were able to admit your flaws and that you needed forgiveness, you were forgiven... The Bible states that very clearly.  You don't need an answer to know that.   Why do you think you felt better after that?  

Your flaws are out in the open, but you're right, they're not really the issue here. Your belief in demons is.

What do you mean "what happened" ? 

Then it becomes rather difficult to explain why you're still a theist. We'd have to re-read and re-discuss every thread on the board you were involved in. Don't have the time for that, so I'll limit myself to the two other conversation you have going on here.

Have to say, you don't seem to be learning much. But I'm sure you disagree.

I can only clarify the obvious in so many ways. Why not obfuscate less ? I mean, this is a painfully simple issue, and pretty much everything you type is completely irrelevant so far. Less fluff would help.

You seem to be reading two different conversations.

See, this is what I mean by "obfuscate". You do believe demons exists, so don't say "no" when someone asks " 'demons exist' is what you call truth, isn't it ? ", unless you've somehow changed your mind. 

"Choice is the excuse for their crimes" ? No, that doesn't even make sense. The excuse they used is "demon possession". Which you claim to believe in, unless you changed your mind. Do inform us if that's the case. 

You are now. I just told you about it. And like I said, there are too many more like it. Not sure how you managed to avoid them all.

This is simply not true ! You ARE aware of at least one ! You brought it up yourself ! Even if you hadn't done the research, which is inexcusable to begin with, you were told about the torture several times ! You listen ? Obviously, only when it suits you.

And I'm sure there are "stories" and "exorcisms" where the victim gets off with nothing but a few bruises and severe mental problems for the rest of their lives, but that doesn't make the murders any less insane. A lesser degree of insanity is still insanity.

It's called "empathy". Something many "loving" christians seem to be very good at suppressing.

Actually, no, it still doesn't. Anyone can still interpret "american" or "christian" just exactly how they please, and they do. 

Avoid it ? Why would I avoid my own point, which you just made for me ? "Does believing it make it true" ? Like belief in demons, you mean ? Or is that somehow exempt ? 

Which all comes down to the no-true-scotsman fallacy, so you can makes as many analogies as you like, the "true christian" title remains up for grabs. I could claim it right now, and there would be nothing you could do to take it away. The discussion would be endless, as it would with anyone who claims the title. We have several of them on the board, so if you have a few years to waste, you can give it a try.

Meanwhile, belief in demons is still, at best, idiotic fantasy "entertainment", and at worst, an excuse used by people suffering from severe religious delusions, to commit murder and indulge in sadism.

And if you really want to prove you're capable of learning, then you will either produce the proof you've been asked for, or honestly admit that there is none. 

No other choice left.

Yeah, I'm sure it does. 

Actually, most of your replies to him fall under "explaining nonsense with more nonsense".

Or to put it another way : 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=theobabble

He's simply been too kind to point this out to you. 

You seem to have a personal connection to these scenarios... or at least a specific issue with the following that seems to go on a personal level with the agression you seem to take with the subject... i say seem because it is hard to read feelings through text.

no, on this particular thread, I'm not learning much... just going with the flow.  despite irrationalities of a conversation, I will never just stop talking to someone in hopes we can both eventually talk on the same level.  I keep my mind open regardless.

You're right.  i"m responding too much to the banter.  I've been trying to cut that out bit by bit, but the responses are still long.  I'll try to get better at avoiding the redundancies.

this was in reference to people using demons as an excuse to abuse someone... I don't believe that's legitimate.  Demons are not my reason for believing.  But I  know they exist.  Demons is the topic, but my belief goes much deeper.  I don't accept the belief of those who use it to abuse.

I'm not avoiding them, but I'm not letting them decide for me what's true.  People are going to come up with excuses for their actions any way they can.  Sure there are a  lot of stories regarding people blaming possession for their actions, but that in no way validates or invalidates the actual occurances of such events.

I mean legitimate possession and exorcisms, not just the stories of the occurences.

agreed

then I question their legitimacy as Christians be it taht 'empathy' is part of the walk

sure, people can interpret it any way they want, but you and I both know there are specific denfinitions for both, and when confronted with those definitions, their interpretation is subject for scrutiny.  

no, it would apply here too.  My believing in demons doesn't make them real.  Just as your disbelief in demons doesn't make them fake.

actually, we can walk through the Bible and come up with a very specific definintion of what a Christian is.  It consists of someone who knows and accepts they are sinful, accepts the gift of life through Jesus Christ and has a passion to share that gift with others, confesses that Jesus is Lord, is repentant and hates the sin they have, is compassionate and loving toward all creation, including their enemies and puts God and family first in their life among other aspects including generosity and humbleness...  certain gifts will shine through some Christians more than others, but these are the basic traits of a True Christian.  

maybe you can answer the $10,000 question.  How do you produce irrational proof?  

You tried to misinterpret what I said by actually deleting an essential word from the sentence, and you call ME "good at the avoidance game" ????????????? In-bloody-credible.

Well, gee, sorry to insist that you read what I actually wrote. I mean, how dare I even suggest such a thing ?

WHAT ???????? 

Dude, do you really not understand that proof required to turn fantasy into reality is going to seem irrational before some produces it ?? Do you really not understand that ? THEN TELL ME !

You really need to flat out admit it if you don't understand that, because I simply cannot conceive of you being that dense. I just cant make myself even consider it.

Nope, wrong again. The fact that you so stubbornly and incredibly keep missing the point is actually encouraging. That still suggests you never thought about this at all. This might even be worth my time.

You asked me to "reword" it, which happened here, and you still refuse to get it, so again : 

Dude, do you really not understand that proof required to turn fantasy into reality is going to seem irrational before some produces it ?? Do you really not understand that ? THEN TELL ME !

You really need to flat out admit it if you don't understand that, because I simply cannot conceive of you being that dense. I just cant make myself even consider it.

So you're actually accusing me of "avoidance", right after you avoided answering a direct question ? This is just going to keep on getting better, isn't it ? 

Fine, here it comes again, third time now and counting :

Do you really not understand that proof required to turn fantasy into reality is going to seem irrational before some produces it ?? Do you really not understand that ? THEN TELL ME !

You really need to flat out admit it if you don't understand that, because I simply cannot conceive of you being that dense. I just cant make myself even consider it.

Yeah, that wasn't a rhetorical question, but sure, I'll let that one go.

Oh wow, it DOES get better ! So now you don't even WANT to prove it anymore ?? THEN WHY DID YOU EVEN ASK WHAT PROOF I WOULD ACCEPT ?

And for pete's sake, how many times do I have to ask you to produce this proof ? How many more times do you need to fail to produce it, before you can bring yourself to admit it doesn't exist ? 

Um, no. You're trying desperately hard to ignore it. 

5th or 6th time : I don't NEED another avenue ! You're already failing ! 

You can tinker around with your analogies as much as you like. Doesn't prove a goshdarned thing. Same goes for the entire vatican bureacracy.

Yeah, I'm going to need you to confirm that again :

Do you really not understand that proof required to turn fantasy into reality is going to seem irrational before some produces it ?

Because if you really don't understand that, then we have a breakthrough. (Finally !)

No, if I was after "biblical truth", then why would I even bother to doubt a single word of it ? Anything except the proof I asked for is an excuse.

Failing at producing the proof I asked for. 

Yeeeeah...As I've been able to point out quite easily, you have a rather one-sided view of "avoidance", to put it kindly. 

Then why am I asking for evidence ? Your "irrational" defense now depends on you managing to misunderstand something so incredibly simple, that admitting you really don't understand, comes down do....well, let's wait until you actually admitted it. 

I'm playing yours ! I'm taking your nonsense seriously enough to tell you how you can prove it to me.

Oh for the love of.... This is not about what I believe ! This is about what you believe ! And asking you to prove it IS rational, like it or not. 

That would really, really help, thanks.

Yet more assumptions. That's all you have. Proof ? Still waiting for it.

I've already handled the "avoidance" accusation more than enough times for this reply. And now I have a "following" as well ? Compare me to whomever you like. It's all you have, so you might as well enjoy it.

You also don't understand why people don't just accept everything you say ? I explained why I don't need that "avenue". Not going to do that again.

Then why did you offer up a case where that DID happen as evidence ??

One delusion at a time. Like I said, we can get into that after we get done with this "demon" nonsense. (I know you're desperate for a way out (that's what all the "avoidcance" accusations are about), but let's finish what we started first, k ?)

You can find "records" on any crazy thing you can think of. Doesn't mean a goshdarned thing. Neither does talking to people who dedicated their lives to tuning out reality. I already told you what would be acceptable as evidence and dealt with your "irrational proof" excuse. Just answer the question about that so we can get on with this.

And again, this is about what YOU believe, so you not caring about what I believe is irrelevant. But you can mention it a few more times, if you like. And for someone who doesn't care what we believe, you sure have been hanging around an atheist website for a long time. Just talking about the weather, were you ?

*hangs head in shame*

Do you even realize that those are all assumptions ? 

Um, no. 

But I'm getting pretty close to accusing you of not knowing or caring what "interesting" even means.

Just going "..interesting" isn't a question. And I've answered all your questions by now. You haven't done the same for me.

Asking for acceptable proof is "avoiding understanding of reality at all costs" ???? And in the next sentence, you try to link ME to religious sects ?? You have some nerve, I'll give you that.

Yeah, you got me. I'm totally like a religious sect. That's why I keep asking for acceptable proof.  As for "obvious to a lot of us", I already explained why that doesn't mean a thing.

Show me one question I missed.

The point is that it is possible. Please don't tell me you still don't get it

Assumptions yet again. Try to cut down on those

Still not clear on who's failing to produce proof, are you ? It's not me. If I'm digging holes, it's out of boredom while I wait for it.

Already explained where you went wrong there. 

I've given you a few ways, yes, and you failed to come up with any of them.

Don't even need to go there. Records don't prove it actually happened, and that's assuming the records even record anything worth mentioning at all.

Anyways, hope you finally answered my thrice repeated question by now, so we can put this one to rest.

obviously at this point we're guessing because there's no way of really knowing.  People seem to agree that God is all knowing, but to what degree.  Genesis 6:6 says; "The Lord was sorry that He had made man on the Earth, and he was greived in his heart".  This would suggest to me that He may not actually know for sure which outcomes will actually end up occuring... i could be wrong, but then I'm not sure why he would be sorry here if He knew this is how it was going to be.

I have not judged you.  I mentioned too that maybe you somehow found favor with God like Enoch had... but that's for you to know for sure.  I can't make a decision like this on someone I've never met and/or know almost nothing about.

I told you what my answers were... did you give enough time for changes to happen in your life?

ok... If it was for nothing, why all the emotion?  Just curious.  

i understand feeling better after crying... that makes a lot of sense.

Oh, so god is not perfect? First time I have ever heard a Christian say that. I thought the whole point was that we should worship god because he is perfect. If he is not perfect, is he god? Why should we worship such a being? Simply because it is extremely powerful? 

Even when you grant Christianity the absurd fairy tales it accepts without any evidence it still remains a highly irrational religion. 

What in that statement made Him not perfect?

How I feel about it is essential wording from the sentence??? I guess.. didn't change the meaning though did it.

...and that's the wall you're refusing to jump over right there... Automatically you're suggesting this proof and admitting it's irrational because you're only using it to turn fantasy into reality...  It seems you're stuck on the other side.

I'm willing to discuss with those who actually want to know.  I never felt like I had a burden to show you anything.  Never said I didn't want to show you.  I like how you've subtly changed that though... 

I guess as many times as it takes for you to come up with something rational that would work for you... I've offered a couple possibilities now... let's see... didn't read through this one... was kind of long.. maybe you responded below.  Just gotta work through all this fluff.

Same with me and you buying that car for me... You really can't see how that parallels your methodology??? 

you did reply!... and did I call it or what

...AND FINALLY THE TRUTH COMES OUT!  If you're not after Biblical truth, then you're not after the proof.  

gee, wonder why that is?  

I have made it clear why I have not researched your request for proof... If you knew anything about what you ask for, you'd realize what you're asking for is not congruent with Biblical truth.

evidence?  You're asking for fantasy to become reality (your words) ... since when was that asking for evidence?  

...but then getting stuck on that being the only possible way it can be proven... even after being told that it doesn't work that way and that it's irrational.  I can't understand how you can be serious still.

it is about what you believe... your belief has caused you to look for a fanatical identity to become reality when what you think you're asking for is evidence of demons.

I've offered a few avenues, apparently records aren't proof... it works for history though... also phone calls and internet searches in a court of law.  

the movie?  that was the only one i offered up... and the issue in the court case wasn't abuse.

I don't know where you think this is going... if you think I'm looking for a way out, you must have been bluffing when you mentioned Brian.. see if you had been talking to him, you'll know that I don't just quit on people.  The avoidance accusations are strait forward... it's clear that's what you've been doing... I've been giving you strait clear information and even trying to guide you into a more rational approach to the subject and you're bound and determined that your way is the only way. 

wow did I call it... so basically what you're telling me... now be honest here... is that you're not interested in the truth. 

Ultimately, if you're going to dismiss everything, including records of occurences and those who specialize in the topic at hand, then you might as well dismiss everything else that exists as well. 

again, good job changing the wording... hey wait! didn't you accuse me of doing that at one point... even though it didn't change the outcome.

anyway, I didn't say I didn't care what everyone here believes.. I really at this point don't care what you believe.  I am curious though... been waiting for you to start discussing something rational and maybe allow the conversation to progress a bit.

well then start talking! I might as well start to make assumptions if you're gonna be stuck.  I want to progress... not away from the subject, but beyond the first post with us.

haven't answered your questions or haven't given you your fanatical proof?  If it's a question, ask it directly and I'll answer it... if it's why I'm not giving you proof, then I've already answered that... and yet I've still given you avenues of evidence.  

You're "textbook"... don't mean to offend here... Where in this conversation did we determine that the proof you're asking for is acceptable???

right... Jehovah's Witnesses ask for "acceptable proof" too... that acceptable proof is only acceptable if it coensides with what the Watchtower says is true.  Acceptable proof is subjective isnt' it.

besides the questions you not being able to see the parallel in me asking for you to buy me a car and you asking me your means of proof?  Ok

1. You never referenced your demon control ring except to say it was Solomon... I was looking for references to research the subject.  Someone else had to tell me.

2. Post #223: Is it true that you will never accept anything that you don't know?

Though I have to admit, though mostly indirectly... after reading through the posts again, you did answer most questions.  Sorry for claiming you didn't.

Ok.. Can an atheist answer a simple question with a simple answer?  I'm not trying anything... don't know how many times on this thread I have to say that.  Thank you for your eventual strait answer.

be it that I'm currently involved in other threads on this site where I'm learning a lot, I'm thinking it just might be some of those other people.

I see what you're saying and I understand your perspective.  I wouldn't say as i; "support their belief in the existence of demons".  Rather I know they exist.  Just like we both know cars exist.. are we supporting each others belief in it?  no, they exist regardless of how wreckless people drive them and how many deaths per year happen due to them.  

Likewise, there are many stories of people doing such abuses without using such an excuse.. in fact, if you look at the statistics, i'm willing to bet you'll find more abuse cases without the demon excuse and the demon excuse being more of an outlier in the statistics.  

For people to take it to the next level shows that their belief is not founded on knowledge, but rather ignorance.

it's not pride that holds me to my belief.  I also believe more lives would be saved if people were aware of Gods' existence and intentions.  I know you'll easily disagree.  I know where you stand.

believing isn't enabling... my belief would actually make it harder for them to use it as an excuse.  The knowledge I have of it would not support their understanding of dealing with it in any way.

in those instances yes

the case had nothing to do with abuse

kindness is kindness, abuse is not love no matter how you want to look at it.  People can try to turn anything around that they want, it doesn't change what it is.

maybe the belief isn't so insane.  Disbelief does not make a reality disappear.

I know exactly what he's asking for.. He's asking for fantasy to be turned into reality.. not evidence of a reality... which is why it's irrational.  You both have predetermined the truth before asking for evidence, therefore no matter what actual evidence is presented... typically it won't matter.  That's not going into the subject with an open mind.  

I actually walked into this conversation with a state of mind that I know what I know, but if someone's got rational reasoning why what I know isn't true, then I will consider it.   I'm sure you will claim the same.  

What do I need to accept that demons are not real?  Maybe proof that first all my personal reliable sources were actually lying and a rational explanation for claimed demonic events happening to people I know including myself.  Then it would have to go over to the spiritual realm and a rational explanation of how prayers I've prayed have been answered ironically exactly the way I've prayed for them to come to pass.

Irrationalities and redundancies while ignoring progression attempts in a conversation are not very convincing.  

Yes, it did. Again, it's encouraging that you don't seem to notice that glaringly obvious fact.

ANSWER THE QUESTION ! And while you're at it, stop your desperate attempts to try and misinterpret such a simple sentence ! Again : YOU, yes YOU, are the one who needs to provide this proof, NOT ME ! So saying I'm the one who's using it to turn reality into fantasy doesn't even begin to make sense.

So here's the question AGAIN. Answer it now, please, so I don't have to repeat this a sixth time :

do you really not understand that proof required to turn fantasy into reality is going to seem irrational before some produces it ?? Do you really not understand that ? THEN TELL ME !

Stop being so vague when we already established what we're discussing here : Your failure to produce acceptable proof for demons, and your subsequent failure to even admit it. 

Then just honestly admit that you can't prove this ridiculous thing you choose to believe in ! Where's the burden in that ?

Then give me the proof or admit there isn't any ! That's all you need to "show" me, because that's all I asked for ! Again, what is so hard about that ?

Changed what ??? What are you even talking about ? Stop making these vague suggestions and assumptions ! You asked me what proof I would accept, I told you, and since then you've just been dancing around the fact that you can't produce it.

Then stop writing it ! You only needed to answer ONE bloody question and admit ONE unavoidable truth !

I guess I could stop reacting to it, but why should I let you get away with all this new nonsense you keep producing, to distract from the fact that you can't prove your idiotic claim ? I already explained why that stuff you mentioned won't work ! That's why you asked me for acceptable proof in the first place !

My WHAT ?? Dude, it was YOUR stupid analogy in the first place , and it SUPPORTS my "methodology" (aka, reality) ! I guess you haven't read that part yet either, eh ? AGAIN : The point is that it's POSSIBLE for someone to buy you that car ! Can't you even understand something so fundamentally simple ? 

If you already knew why it doesn't count as proof, then why do you offer it as proof ? That doesn't make a lick of sense. So are you just wasting time here, or do you need to have it explained to you WHY it doesn't count as proof for anything ? Is this another bleeding obvious fact you just don't understand ? THEN TELL ME ! How else am I even supposed to know if you're kidding or not ! 

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

...okay, now wait just a goshdarned second. 

If you only accept the bible as truth, then why did you ask me what I would accept as proof, since you obviously couldn't care less ? 

And why did you even bother to argue this point ? Why would you even use words like "rational" and "irrational", or pretend to care about facts, except as a deliberate attempt to mislead me, and make me waste my time trying to reason with you ?

Are you seriously going to hide behind the bible now ? Really ? 

But that's cowardice ! We're talking about REAL people, abusing REAL kids and sick people. And you're going to hide behind the bible, just so you can keep your precious "demons" ???

*sigh* Because there is no proof for "demons". Is admitting that simple fact going to cause you physical pain or something ?

And I have made it clear why the proof I asked for is the only one that can be acceptable for a claim as absurd as yours. You will either produce that proof, or you will admit there is no proof for demons.

And I've explained, ad nauseam, why you can't explain nonsense with more nonsense, validate magic with more magic, etc...

So again, if you don't understand why that is, THEN TELL ME ! How else am I even supposed to know if you're being serious ??

That's because demons ARE fantasy ! Admit it !

Since people such as yourself started taking their fantasies for reality ! How else am I supposed to get them to admit it ??

YOU, yes YOU, again YOUUUUUU, are the one who believes these irrational things are real ! YOU ! 

Do I now have to explain what "You" means ? Has it come to that ?

Are you physically incapable of processing this simple fact ???? Okay, AGAIN, and probably not for the last time : YOU believe in demons ! I do not. AGAIN, say it with me now : YOU. BELIEVE. IN. DEMONS. And who doesn't ? THE PERSON YOU ARE TALKING TO.

For pete's sake, I'm running out of ways to say it.

AGAIN, there is nothing fanatical about asking for proof for demons (in which YOU believe) ! Stop throwing pejoratives around ! 

AGAIN, if you really don't understand that proof required to turn fantasy into reality is going to seem irrational before some produces it , THEN TELL ME !

You're making a supernatural claim, not a historical one. Do I need to have a sesame street character explain the difference between the two to you ? 

In a court of law, you can offer up ANYTHING as proof. Doesn't mean it will end up proving anything at all. Why are you making me explain things you already know yourself ? 

But it DID happen !!!! If you don't consider cases where that happens to be "real" demonic possession cases, then WHY did you offer it as proof ?????

?????????? YOU DON'T KNOW ?????????

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY IT BEFORE THIS REGISTERS ??? You either produce the proof I asked for , or you admit there is no proof for demons ! THAT'S IT ! 

Oh, I knew that from the start. That's why I said this might be worth my time. Brian's very generous when it comes to giving props, btw.

They're also false. Let's not forget that.

Not to you, it isn't. No matter how many times you make me repeat myself. And yeah, I'm the one doing the "avoiding".

Not you, who has to delete essential words from simple questions, so he can even go on pretending to miss the point. Not you, who managed not to answer the only question that mattered, YET AGAIN. 

I didn't ask for "information". I asked for proof, and I explained why your info doesn't qualify as such. If you don't understand why it doesn't, then tell me, and I will explain more clearly. 

And btw, since when does "biblical truth" qualify as "a more rational approach" ?

?? Did you even read that sentence ??? NO, that is not "basically" what I said. That is "basically" not even remotely close to what I said. So are you now going to change ALL the words in my sentences to suit your purpose ?? Wow, indeed.

Read it again !

I'm not going to dismiss "everything" ! I told you what I would accept ! Geez, how dishonest can you get ? 

Do you really not understand that records can be faked, embellished, simply made up, or even written by people who have no idea what they're talking about, and who are masking their ignorance by making up their own explanations ? 

Do you really not understand that ANYONE can claim knowledge of the supernatural ? ANYONE !!!!!! 

Because, AGAIN, if you really don't understand that, THEN YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO TELL ME !

"Changing the wording" ? What "wording" ? You mean you DO care what we believe ? Oh, never mind, you explain yourself a little later on...

No, I accused you of changing a keyword in a sentence so you could avoid the painfully simple fact it was explaining. You just did it again a few sentences ago, btw. Only this time you simply ignored the whole sentence and replaced it with your own. I'm not even surprised anymore.

Removing a verb from a sentence doesn't change it's meaning ????

I'm starting to wonder, did you even read it ?  

Oh dear, then I have an unpleasant surprise for you : Not a single atheist here would accept what you offer as "proof" for demons. Not. A. Single. One. 

So I guess you don't care about what they "believe" either. 

Which again brings up the question why you've been hanging out here for so long. Talking about traffic ? Movies ? Your stamp collection ? 

No, AGAIN, YOU're the one with the irrational belief, not me. I explained why your "irrational proof" excuse doesn't work. The conversation is waiting for you to answer the question I've been asking...oh wait, I asked that at the end too, didn't I ? I'll go check if you answered it there. 

*deep,deep sigh*

You didn't. 

So yeah, if you want the discussion to progress, this is the question you have to answer (without changing any words in it !!!!!!!!!!!!)

Do you really don't understand that proof required to turn fantasy into reality is going to seem irrational before some produces it ?? Do you really not understand that ? THEN TELL ME !

(To minimize any more attempts from you to run away from this, I'd appreciate a "yes, I do", or "no, I don't" answer. We can take it from there)

What, I should repeat the question a 7th time ? This selective blindness you seem to suffer from is really quite extraordinary. 

So who's stopping you from answering that question ? Is it a demon ? 

You mean you're actually going to answer the question in your next post ? That would be appreciated, thanks. Took you long enough, though.

Haven't answered my questions. And for the last (LOL) time, there is nothing "fanatical" about demanding proof for demons ! S

Yeah, that hasn't been working very well up to now. Still, seems damn near impossible for you to dodge this any longer. 

And I explained why your "irrational proof" defense doesn't work. If you really want to progress, then stop making me repeat myself.

And I've explained why they don't count as evidence, as will every other atheist on this site (or anywhere else, for that matter. Heck, even some christians will. Even you yourself seemed to know why !).

And I'm going to have to explain this again, aren't I ? Seriously, what does it take for you to remember something for longer than one post ? 

Why would I be offended by such a ridiculous accusation ? Actually, it's encouraging that you would sink so low, so fast. It usually takes longer for the "friendly neighborhood theist" mask to drop. 

I already explained why the "proof" you offer is not acceptable, which just leaves mine. And your "irrational proof" excuse has been dealt with. Answer the question you forced me to repeat about 4 times (sorry, lost count) in this reply, and even you won't be able to run from this anymore.

Not the ones that come to my door, they don't. They just want me to accept their interpretation of the bible as truth. Now who else wants me to do that ? Not you, right ? Cuz you don't care. Which is why you've been here for years. 

I told you, again and again and again, if you don't understand why my proof is acceptable and why the stuff you offer isn't then TELL ME ! Heck, you even knew yourself why yours wasn't acceptable, which makes your refusal to recognize mine as acceptable (since YOU believe in demons. YOU ! Not me !) even more confusing. 

Um, that's not a question, and I already explained why your analogy supports me and not you. But it appears selective blindness had struck again, so sure ...

AGAIN : It is POSSIBLE for someone else to buy you the car, so if cars are real, the proof CAN be provided.

You expect me to answer questions you can google yourself ???????????? And Blacklight did it for you and you're STILL complaining ? Incredible..

Would you perhaps like to return the favor ?

Apology accepted.

Cars aren't supernatural creatures. 

Anyways, hope you finally answered my often repeated question by now, so we can put this one to rest.

i read over a lot of these comments and unless i missed it no one has pointed out that atheist are not attacking Jesus Christ but salvationist religion as a whole. I for one argue against it because I believe it's harmful to humanity to follow a god that would create you with basic human desires, condemn you for them, then force you to ask for his forgiveness with threat of an eternity in agony. I believe it was John Lamb Lash who compared this to the victim/perpetrator bond, similar to the relationship between a woman who is beaten by her husband but continues to go back to him because "he loves her"

whether you meant it or not, it said what it said.  dispute it all you want.

I do not understand that... sorry that wasn't clear the last 10 times. 

alright, open your eyes and look around... The evidence is difficult to see unless you know what you're looking for.  If that confuses you, then tell me. 

To understand that demons exist is Biblical truth... If you're not willing to accept Biblical truth, you're not willing to accept any rational evidence of demons existing.  I care if you do to know, but it seems that you don't... instead you've left me with one avenue of proof and said all or nothing.  Again, it doesn't work that way.

Hide behind it?  What do you think I believe?  

...and this is what I've been saying this whole time.  Yes, we're talking about real people and real abuse... Are you suggesting outside the possession excuse abuse doesn't happen?  does someone who abuses a child because of the claim of possession automatically make all occurances untrue?  

So right here... why are you so convinced that this is the only acceptable proof for demons?  Can I see the research behind your conclusion?

Thank you for validating your intentions.  Wasn't i right?  Your mission on this thread was to prove it wrong, not to seek out the truth.  You will never find evidence for something you refuse to consider as a possibility.  

That's a good question.  Be it that they consider it to be reality, the burden would be on you to show them they don't exist... You would do this by showing them the alternative to the occurrances they have associated with demons and/or anything else spiritual.  

self reflection

I'll be honest, I dont' fully understand what you are saying here.  Are you saying abuse did happen in this case?  What part of it was abuse?

I never said all of the abuse cases didn't have to do with possession, but again, possessed or not, there is no excuse for abusing the person.  Abuse does not get rid of the demon and/or cure the person. 

since no one has been able to refute it.  beyond that, what is proof but information that one accepts as truth?  

Sure, I don't understand why it doesn't... unless it's congruent with what i already guessed you'd say about it.

sure, but do you not understand that though records can be faked, embellished, simply made up or even written by poeple who have no idea what they're talking about the concept can still be real?

Sure, anyone can claim anything, does that make it false?

I'm not going to lose sleep over what people want to believe.  It's not my burden to prove something to someone who doesn't want to believe it.

pink elephants actually.  my collection of pink elephants... oh wait.. sorry, I did say I wouldn't joke.  

I'm here to learn from others and if anyone's interested teach them about what i know.  Flexability is a part of learning and teaching however. 

...so are you saying it's irrational?  This is why I had difficulty seeing that you had been answering questions... just like you want from me, I was just looking for a yes or no here.  The answer is not contingent on what it is.

 considering that we're obviously here for the long haul on this topic, I don't know how the OP feels about where this is goign, but it is kind of off point... should we continue this on a new thread?

Since most of your replies center around missing the point in a variety of nonsensical ways, here is the point again :

You asked me what I would consider proof for demons. I told you. I explained why your "irrational proof" excuse didn't work.

And that's where you got stuck. Really, seriously stuck.

It said what it said, UNTIL YOU DELETED THE KEY WORD IN THE SENTENCE ! How does pointing out something you actually did turn into "disputing" ??????? 

Oh please, now don't start lying as well. This is the first time you answered that question directly. I have no choice but to ask you these simple and direct questions. How else am I supposed to know for sure if you're serious or not ?

Right. Phew. Finally.

Okay then, so you don't understand why proof required to turn fantasy into reality is going to seem irrational before someone produces it.

Then let me rephrase : Do you understand, that if somebody were to produce this proof for demons I am asking for, I am going to be extremely surprised indeed ? And do you understand WHY I will be extremely surprised ? (Direct answers, please)

Can't make it any clearer than that, but do tell me if I have to.

Why would I be confused by you failing, again, to produce the proof I asked for ? I opened my eyes and looked around, and there were no demons. End of story. 

You telling me I "didn't look in the right way" or some such nonsense will also not produce these demons. I told you this a dozen times already : You can't prove nonsense by producing even more nonsense. 

I just told you, you can't prove nonsense with more nonsense. Just calling something "truth" doesn't make it true, which makes "biblical truth" the exact opposite of rational evidence. 

So you can put your bible away until someone actually asks for it.

? "i care if you do to know" ? I'm sorry, we all make typos, but I can't even guess at what that was supposed to mean.

And I have explained why it does. You have no more excuses left.

Your belief can't turn supernatural creatures into reality, so it's not going to help you here. I already explained that. Please stop bringing up these irrelevant, time-wasting points.

No. Would you like me to suggest that, so you can wander even further away from the bleeding obvious point of it all ? 

The "occurances" were untrue regardless of how cowardly and sadistic those people behaved, behave, and will keep on behaving, as long as people such as yourself keep supporting their beliefs, all in the name of "biblical truth". 

I am telling you that denying the insanity of the concept of demons, for no other reason than that you choose to "believe" the bible, is an act of cowardice with serious, tragic consequences.

Those were the only things I could think of that you couldn't fake. 

It doesn't take research to think of things you can't fake. 

Um, no. I asked for proof, and told you I would accept it. You then not only failed to produce it, but tried to weasel out of having to come up with it in the first place.

After all that, is it really unfair to conclude that you can't produce the proof I asked for, and that you've been aware of it the whole time ? 

If you're going to make assumptions, try not to make them direct contradictions of what I actually said. I said I would accept the evidence I specified. It's not my fault that you haven't produced it yet. 

And we already have the answer. I told you what I would accept as proof. Now produce it or admit there are no demons. ("irrational proof" excuse, dealt with. "biblical truth" excuse, also dealt with)

If reality would convince them, they would never have started believing in demons in the first place.

No, I think I might have more success by asking a believer in demons to produce acceptable proof. Which I just did. And since no proof was produced, I will now endeavor to guide you to the logical implications of that fact. Once you choose honesty over "belief", there will be one less person supporting this insane belief. 

But that doesn't make any sense. YOU are the one who's denying those facts, not me. 

??????????????????? What the hell is wrong with you ? I told you ! TWICE ! How can you even claim you didn't know ????? They made her kneel until her knees BROKE ! They denied her medical care until she died !

That's another lie. Here's what you said :

And you WERE aware of this case.

Making up stories and rules about imaginary creatures does not make them real. 

Except for reality itself. Takes a lot of wasted energy to keep ignoring that one.

Seriously ? Well, it would need to be reality-based, for starters. Otherwise you could just take your own imagination as proof for whatever the heck you fancied. 

This is a bit puzzling, as it would suggest you don't understand something you explained yourself, but okay, you get into that a little later, so I'll explain there.

And do you now understand the necessity of being able to prove that ? 

Doesn't make it true either, hence the necessity for proof.

I have to say, I'll be damn impressed if you STILL manage somehow to miss the point now. 

Which is why you've been defending your insane faith here for, what ? , 5 years or so ? Lol.

Oh, and AGAIN, if you bring us the proof, we will believe. ("biblical proof" excuse, dealt with. "irrational proof" excuse, also dealt with. Time for a new excuse ?)

Then I guess it really all comes down to your discussions with JP. I'm sure he'll be honored you're here just for him.

Meh, "flexability" can turn out as hypocrisy. I'd say honesty is more important.  

Why not read what I write ? I said "cars aren't supernatural creatures". 

I have rephrased the amazingly simple concept you have so much trouble grasping (and again, this is encouraging), in a way that would make it virtually impossible to miss the point again, as you're doing again now.

Just focus on the underlined section. We're almost at the finish line.

actually, the scenario used as an example was quite clear when Jesus made the man born blind see again.... but sure if that helps you sleep

are you saying the conversation between Satan and them didn't happen?  Satan didn't teach them false information like God was actually lying and that they wouldn't die if they ate of it?  They had no intention of eating it as far as we can see before another entity came down to teach them differently.

I'm sure with your dog, if someone else came in while you were training him and started teaching him to bite people, your dog would have different actions around people.

so, she was making assumptions or she was just trying to make the story work?  I haven't seen the inconsistencies you're likely referencing to here in the topic at hand.

who does?  They raise them from birth and also the 2 create them don't they?  Why wouldn't a parent be responsible for what their child does?

 Also, I think it is quite clear that parenting can have a huge influence on whether or not a child grows up to be a model citizen or a crook.

isn't it?  Maybe you can explain it better

Statistically speaking, I don't think that holds water...  Do you have a study on this?  I'm still under the belief that if someone was to abuse or torture someone else that they'd find any excuse to get away with it including possession, but I'm willing to look into what you have

Those who know what I believe don't make the same associations you do.  I am ashamed for those who present themselves as Christian and yet abuse or torture others in the name of God.  It's appauling! 

actually, it does... not that he exists today, rather that he existed in history as a person who gave gifts to homeless children and families with little or no money.

to make that point clear

do you honestly believe those tragedies would all be avoided if demonic possession or the belief in it was not an aspect?  I believe those people would have found another excuse.

experience and reliable sources with experience.  Understanding and knowledge in the subject matter as well.

c'mon, you know the reasoning parallels.  It really doesnt' matter what the subject matter is, it could be carbon monoxide for all I care.

ok, then I'm  curious where they get the idea that abuse is the way to rid them of this possession.  It's not the bible

well, with the extremely religious crowds, what about deviant behavior for starters...  doesn't have to be demonic.

k

That says it happened during the exorcism.  It says nothing about anyone making her do it.  

...and this is where the court case comes in...  I see what you're saying here though...

It could have been averted... maybe... but if demons are real, what could have been instead?  I know you're bent on convincing me that they're not, but the only way you're giong to do that is by showing me the convincing research that convinced you.

Abuse is not a part of it.  I see what you were saying above though of not forcing her... however there are laws that say if she can verbally refuse, you can't make her... she was verbally refusing from what I can tell.

yes, deemed mentally ill, someone can override that law, however, then were was everyone else who knew about her condition that could have done something about it?  it wasn't kept secret, doctors were giving her meds for a short time... why no followup? why no intervention on the family?

I stick it out... it's interesting to me to see how far people will take it.

no, I understand what he's doing.  he's choosing to repeat himself.  i have made my position on it clear

I'm reading all of it.. I have nothing to go on yet as far as questioning my own belief.  

no, I do not accept all of the uncountable other supernatural claims... we've already agreed that people can make things up.  I've made it clear where I stand.  My standard of proof has not been brought to light in these conversations, we've gotten stuck on particulars.

that was a simple question really

ok... great!  not convincing... but great!

Awe, not a metalhead?  sorry.  the idea is reality is in your mind.  It can be very subjective.

yes, yes they were weren't they.

no, you can't let go of yours that easily can you?

how about consider what I've said about it and try something different... no... wait... that would to logical

It's hard to stay focused when the last time the problem question was brought up was so many extensive posts ago.  

The following assumes the 'God' caposkia speaks of is exactly as he describes:

And what about every other scenario, caposkia? Why did your asshole of a God give me depression, huh? And what about the dozen or so people I PERSONALLY KNOW who wish for death on a daily basis? Are those the scenarios where God "works in mysterious ways"? (Granted, such ways are mysterious to me, but that's because I don't think like a sociopath.)

No one does, caposkia.

Self abuse because she was convinced by others she was evil and/or under the control of an evil entity. Children and the mentally ill are far more suggestible and vulnerable than healthy adults.

I'd be very interested in you detailing your experience, your reliable sources, and your understanding and knowledge on the subject matter of "demons".

I generally don't look up or do research to disprove something for which I've never found any credible evidence for. If what you have about demons is actually convincing, then I may look for research that gives alternative and/or more likely explanations.

Didn't need any "turning". Instead of proof, I got excuses.

No, I explained WHY it's an excuse. You just ignore that and keep using it. 

But this isn't about what I believe. It's about what you believe and can't prove.

Unless it's an article that explains exactly why you have trouble grasping such a simple sentence, it has no bearing on what's being discussed here. 

Your "other way of knowing" is believing without proof, which you will ignore when it suits you, so why should I, or anyone accept it ? 

????? And I explained why you STILL didn't make any sense ! Are you seriously STILL trying to pretend the meaning of a sentence isn't affected by taking out the verb ?? You are some piece of work.

You're reacting to something I didn't even write ! How difficult is it for you to simply reply to what I write without trying to change it first ??? YOU recheck what I wrote ! 

Then he's in for a surprise, I guess.

Show me where you had to repeat a question 5 times before I replied to it directly. Better find something, or this might look bad, right after you claimed you don't lie.

Well, that makes two of us then.

Gladly. I underlined your reply as well, and left the sentence you replied to, so anyone who can read can see your obvious mistake.

Once again, you turned my sentence into something it isn't. You left out the "proof" part as well this time.

Read it again. The subject of the sentence is "proof required to turn fantasy into reality". Got that ? Okay. 

Now do you understand that "proof required to turn fantasy into reality", is going to seem irrational before someone produces it ?

And why is that ? 

Because something that seemed utterly irrational to me before now has acceptable proof for it's existence. 

Get it now ? Are we finally there ? 

Well, yes. You wouldn't accept "open your eyes and look around" as proof skin-wearing lizard people, so why should anyone accept it for demons ?

Will you please quit trying to construct analogies between things that don't exist and things that do ? If you don't understand why those don't work, then tell me, and I'll explain.

No, I literally did what you asked. 

What I said was, and you know this very well, it's 100% accurate to say that there's no proof for the existence of demons. How many times do I have to ask you to stop misrepresenting what I say ?

And when someone explains why the approach is not "out of left field", then you can't just ignore their explanation. But it's okay, we're past that. It took some doing, but you're paying attention now.

Well, as you can read in the above underlined section, your explanation of why mine doesn't work, doesn't actually deal with my explanation at all, but with another sentence you constructed by leaving out the words that give it it's specific meaning. 

And that's where we're stuck.

But hey, no worries. At least we have the problem reduced to simple reading comprehension. Extremely easy to resolve. 

The abuse is a fact, not an "excuse". The fact that abuse happens somewhere else too is irrelevant to what's being discussed.

Look up any "occurrence". You will find no proof there. 

Oh dear, every time you get all excited like this, I have to burst your bubble. I apologize in advance.

?? Why ? What do you mean ? Why would anyone accept proof that could be faked ?

I'm not suggesting anything. What I said was clear enough.  And I'm guessing you mean "can tell" ??

Sure, I already told you, btw. That bbc show I mentioned used all the usual nonsense that people put forward as proof, including the "demon voices" and all the so-called "symptoms" of possession. 

Do you really not understand that it doesn't take research to figure out things you can't fake ? Because if you don't, you're going to have to tell me. (Sorry, but really, still impossible to tell if you're kidding or not.

Read what I write, please. I said you tried to weasel out of having to come up with the evidence in the first place. Not weasel out of the conversation.

But I didn't ask for a "religious slam", whatever that may be. I asked for acceptable proof. 

? I thought they already didn't matter ?

That you didn't read what I wrote. And it's not an excuse, it's a fact.

And I told you why that didn't work as an excuse. Again, this all centers around you simply refusing to deal with all the words in one simple sentence. You keep taking words out so you can turn it into something I didn't say, which you then declare "the same". That is not how words and sentences work.

But like I said, no worries. Thanks to your reply this time, the problem is now out in the open, and can be dealt with. 

Again, see above. Feel free to concentrate solely on that in your next reply.

Doing quite fine without excuses, thanks.

I remember quite clearly explaining already why articles don't cut it as acceptable proof for the existence of demons.

At least you're not trying to deny it. That's admirable. Would love to own up as well, but I can't seem to remember making an assumption about you that was in direct contradiction with something you said. I'm sure you can provide an example.

An informed one, based on people involved in actual cases. The parents of Anneliese Michel, for instance, knew full well the rational explanation for their daughter's illness. They chose to ignore it. 

Going pretty well so far. Wouldn't be bothering if I didn't think this was worth my time. 

Again, see above. 

No, you're responding to my answers to your questions, and my reactions to your various assumptions and vague accusations (which nobody asked you to make, btw)

The only assumptions I've made have been informed ones, and feel free to show me a redundancy. 

You clearly don't care what he would answer, so why ask me to ask him anything ??

"Failed" ? We have this reduced to a reading comprehension problem. How is that failing ? 

No, repeated kneeling was part of the exorcism. And is self-abuse then not a problem for you to declare a demonic possession genuine ? 

Yes, and you WERE aware of it. And like I said, the repeated kneeling WAS part of the exorcism. 

I never mentioned "statistics". I'm talking about what happened in this specific case. And again, the repeated kneeling WAS part of the exorcism.

Yes, and you WERE aware of this one ! If this was wasn't "done appropriately" according to you, then why did you bring it up ???

So now abuse CAN happen in legitimate cases, according to you ???? Again, you are some piece of work.

Anything that isn't imaginary, delusional, (only) in the mind, dreams, abstract, false, or fictional. 

Yeah, sorry.

If you're looking for more stalling material, you can maybe ask me what the meaning of life is next. Or the sound of one hand clapping.

Since that's been revealed as your reading comprehension problem, oh yes we can. Let's get to it, shall we ? 

Yes, hence the necessity for proof. I'm not entirely sure why you left that out. All will be revealed, I'm sure.

What "claims excuse" are you referring to ? 

You're doing it right now, so yeah.

That's not even a dodge, that's just rephrasing what I said. 

Nah, like I said, it's a pretty standard reading comprehension problem. Easy to solve.

Considering the weakness of your arguments so far, it wouldn't have surprised me if you were being serious.

Well duh. You're talking about history, not your supernatural claims. 

No, it takes two to have a conversation.

Your failure to grasp why your "irrational proof" excuse is, in fact, an excuse, is entirely dependent on a simple reading comprehension problem, which we will quickly solve in the next reply. Feel free to concentrate solely on that.

I already had to explain that I don't need research or support to think of something you can't fake. If you don't understand that, you're going to have to tell me.  

Good. 

Well, no, because it had nothing to do with what I actually said. I said "cars aren't supernatural creatures", so I have no idea what your question is even referring to. 

Tell me what "it" refers to, so I can answer your question. 

This sentence is in English, the grammar and syntax are sound, and it clearly communicates a very simple fact. So before anyone can "explain" it to you, you're going to need to be a lot clearer about exactly what you don't understand. 

All of it ? I don't have whole weeks to spend online, and remember, this is on angoing story with no end in sight, but sure, you can start with this :

http://www.saff.ukhq.co.uk/stobart.htm

Hope you have a strong stomach. Let me know when you want some more.

The associations between belief in demons, and abusing and torturing children and sick people, are made by the people who believe in demons. I only notice the results.  

Nobody is accusing you of not caring about the victims. What I am saying is that it is shameful to make a bad situation worse, when you could so easily make it better.

No, actually, it doesn't. Retroactively declaring someone a saint, does not make a fictional character based on his exploits suddenly an actual person. I'm not sure why you would even try this. Why would anyone believe that you don't know that a fictional character is not the same as a living, breathing person ? 

??? But my point was already clear ? Honestly, what are you even going on about ? 

All of them ? Doubtful. But it's even more doubtful that not even one could be avoided if people simply stopped defending this insane idea and treated it with all the ridicule and disgust it so richly deserves. That is MORE than reason enough to feel ashamed for still defending it. 

Let's test that experience and those sources : Could you link me to a reliable source that reports a case where belief in "demonic possession" led to some positive outcome that could not have been achieved without it ? And that "positive outcome" would of course need to balance out at least one of the many crimes we already discussed.

And if you can't do that, I will have to repeat the same question again. 

???? Just saying "c'mon, you know" doesn't make "reasoning parallel".

Read this. Read it several times :   http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/False_analogy

Since when has that ever stopped a christian ?

No, deviant behavior doesn't give them any of the advantages I just described. In fact, belief in demonic possession offers a safe haven for people who like to indulge in "deviant behaviour"

It was part of the exorcism. This girl didn't get to dictate what that involved. In fact, when she got too weak to kneel, her parents grabbed an arm each and made her move through those ritualistic movements like a rag doll.

Then are we agreed there was serious abuse involved in this case ? 

The effects of this supposed "demon" could have easily been held in check by modern medicine. All her symptoms were treatable. So not "maybe". This certainly could have been averted, if not for belief in demons.

I am bent on making you think twice about the consequences of supporting, (and even not actively ridiculing) this insane belief in public, or in any way at all.

Then you will be reading extremely depressing real-life (non-supernatural) horror stories for the rest of your life, together with the rest of us.

So does a case with abuse such as this fit your definition of "demonic possession" ? If not, then I'd have to ask why you brought it up as proof. If it was an honest mistake, just admit it. There is no shame in that. In fact, you can only learn from this to pay closer attention to the facts in future.

They kept it hidden, which is easy, if you believe you're "helping" your daughter by having those "exorcisms". And it takes a document signed by at least two doctors familiar with the case, to force emergency aid on someone who doesn't want it. What it would take with even the parents refusing to put their daughter in a hospital, I have no idea. All this for the sake of belief in demons.

No, I was referring to you misrepresenting anony's words again, right after I admonished you for it.

No, you don't even understand what he's saying, no matter how simple and straightforward he makes it. So I'll repeat the question : Do you really not understand that there's nothing "fanatical" about demanding proof for a supernatural claim ?

No, he has no choice but to repeat himself, since you keep repeating mistakes he already corrected, and accusations which he already pointed out you can't support.

If he lets you get away with that, then you repeatedly ignoring his responses becomes a way for you to win ANY argument without even having one.

That's because you keep blatantly, almost comically misinterpreting what he actually says. Nobody here is going to fall for that one. Not even Mouse.  

Since none of the "proof" for "demons" is anything of a sort, how do you keep from believing every single supernatural claim ? 

It most certainly has been brought up in these conversations. Goes to show how much attention you actually pay to the people who are trying to talk to you. 

No, it was a false analogy. There are no "parallels" between cosmology and fiction.

If the fact that there is no proof doesn't convince you, then I have to ask again, how do you keep from believing everything ?

As for the exclusive toxicity of your demon belief also not convincing you, well, I still think that's something you should be deeply ashamed of.

And yet making something up still doesn't make it real.

Why would I let go of an existing rational explanation, in favor of an exclusively toxic supernatural one that doesn't even begin to make sense ?

You have as yet to come up with any good reason for picking a supernatural explanation when there's a perfectly good rational one. 

"Experience and reliable sources with experience. Understanding and knowledge in the subject matter as well" ? All of that you'd have to take on faith. That is not enough to support such a vile and destructive belief. Especially when the rational explanation is right there.

No excuse. 

You're not listening. I'll say it again : you KEEP REPEATING THE SAME MISTAKES WE ALREADY CORRECTED. That means we ALREADY considered what you said, corrected your mistake and explained WHY it was a mistake in the first place. 

If all we get after that is the exact same mistake we just patiently corrected for you, well, then you can't honestly blame us for the lack of progress.

Nobody forced you to bite of more than you could chew.

And the arguments put forward aren't exactly rocket science, since belief in "demons" isn't especially hard to debunk when you're not talking to a religious nut.

So just focus on not over-complicating things, and you'll be just fine. 

blacklight, I can't answer for everything God does, I'm not God.  Depression could be any number of causes including people, not just God... I dont' know your personal scenario or anyone elses scenario and what events in their life or family history could have led to the imbalances that we define as depression.  

What I do know is understanding is the beginning to recovery for any ailment.  Scientifically speaking, your approach to the subject psychologically and hormonally fuels the fire of depression rather than squelching it.  

Sure, I guess that suggests that she definitely couldn't have been then right?

all of that huh... that's likely a thread in itself...  Let's start simple... logical answers are key right?

So one spiritual scenario, maybe demons, maybe not is when walking or driving at night, streetlights would go out randomly when I passed under them... The strange phenomena stopped when I talked to a friend of mine who is a prayer warrior and they prayed that if it was not of God for it to stop.  Ironically it stopped from there on out... never to happen again.  Yes, others had witnessed this phenomena when accompanying me.  

What logical explanation do you have for not only the phenomena of lights going out when I pass under them, but that stopping completely once it was prayed about by one who is known to have effective prayer?

...and I have a hard time accepting the understanding of an individual or group of people who claim such contrary reasoning with little understanding of the subject.  I think that feeling would logically be mutual here be it that others have stated such as well.

Well, I have always thought that I would make a terrible father so I don't have kids- but if I did, I certainly wouldn't let my kids hang out around satan. And if I failed and let satan corrupt my kids, I wouldn't punish my grandchildren and great grandchildren for all of eternity. But hey, god works in mysterious ways.  

My will is not capable of exerting any force over my genetic code. It is not a choice. My physical imperfections, my mental capacity etc. are all the result of genetics that I had no influence over. How would a god making sure my genetic code was perfect be him taking away my free will when I have no free will in that area anyway? You have no choice who you are, you were born you like it or not.   

Are you claiming that humans are flawless? Absurd. We have hundreds of flaws before you even start talking about our choices.

Yet you refuse to answer our questions. Do you have any evidence of demonic possession?

If you wanted me to help you repair your ignorance in mathematics I would provide you a link that would provide meaningful and detailed information. For example, https://www.khanacademy.org/math/arithmetic/addition-subtraction/basic_addition/v/basic-addition conveniently, on that same site once you have mastered basic addition you can get into some fairly advanced mathematics. Can you provide something similar that provides evidence of demonic possession?

Your links consist of people like you simply declaring demonic possession exists and talking balderdash. If you can't understand why we are reluctant to accept that as evidence, I can't help you. As I pointed out, the same "evidence" is widespread across the internet for a number of things you dismiss because of lack of evidence. 

Then why don't you provide to a link where someone has provided a detailed study of demonic possession? I have only asked a few dozen times. If you already know where the "correct" pages are on the net, why do you want me to search for them? Just show me. The last page you sent me to said there was no scientific evidence and that there could be no evidence- do you agree with that? If you do, this whole discussion is pointless because the whole thing has revolved around people asking you to provide evidence or admit there is none. If there is no evidence, just say so. 

I'm not interested in rants, yours or anyone else's. I am interested in evidence. So do you have any evidence of demonic possession? Do you agree with that link that it is impossible to have scientific evidence of demonic possession?