Ethics of Mary Kay Letourneau case
Offline I'm curious about the opinion of this panel about the ethics of this case that I'm sure most of you remembers.
Similar discussions where the main theme was paedophilia ended up it bitter arguments and lost it's rational approach.
I prefer to start with a concrete case scenario like Mary Kay one.
I think for a rational discussion about the case one has to take into consideration
Basically what I will start to ask the forum is if you see any wrong doing, ethically speaking, and not criminally speaking in Mary Kay's case or not?
If you see wrong doing why is that and how can it be proven. The court didn't prove that Vili Fualaau was raped because the law didn't deemed necessary, it is automatically assumed.
Finally how can we find out what should be the age of consent?
It should be noted that because different countries have different ages of consent. If this case had been in e.g. Spain it might not be deemed criminal.
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/psychology/marykay_letourneau/1.html
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Re :: This sounds like some salacious and bad play from antiquity
Re:: This sounds like some salacious and bad play from antiquity
Unless I am misreading the hopes were to engage folks about Ethics, this is a h-e-double-popsicle sticks of an example to choose.
Our opening scene, Our unsuspecting star crossed lovers .. one enchanted day, Being held after school for failure to sIt up straight and remove the chewing gum from his mouth during class. Little Timmy [dot dot dot] Flash forward, Mistresses Letourneau, much as antiquity's Roman Emperor Tiberius' infamous swims in the company of his "little fishies", know the reference. In her leering, especially leering glances, she noticed how tightly fitting little Timmy's big boy shorts were on him. In yet another excuse she inexplicably found herself in yet another excuse to tutor, our young Timmy. Though he was doing well with his grades. Vacillate between the promise and hormones or swayed by the taboo. To be blunt, Any denizens of hell's fueled cruelty & unmitigated fury of towards this woman would not out match mine. (not only her)! Any who lack(s) inhibitions, behaves inappropriately; has no shame. I dont think you'd have difficulties with identifying this type of woman has some 'kind-of-a-path', as in pathology and psychosexual disorder (apparently) . Apart from any discussions about the appropriate age for the adult to assume the role of child predator?! Nice topic!! But, I hope you're having a wonderful day, all the same. Do you have any idea how people's blood boils when ambulance chasers or sharks take advantage of the elderly ?!!! If this is part of the human condition ? Man oh man, moral rectitude is needed pronto (IMHO). I feel soiled just reading about this. Is it unreasonable, to expect, you can interact with others without them taking advantage of a person's age ?!? I deal in studies of ancient myth so I have seen much much worse suggestions . . Something very wrong here!!
Forum/33773, is worth a close look at . . .
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/33773 latincanuck's thread
Quote sited in nu 11-13
" . . this person's strong influence over them, as well as their own future plan prevented them from taking any action against their sex offending child's molester . . ''
(Edit :: Edit strike the letter '' a '' or Deleted it, and added maybe )
Yes I do know! That's why I came here in hope of some rational thoughts. There seems to be many irrationality on this issue. I think asking what should be the consent age is an extremely pertinent question. Another question is how can we better prepare the youth to not let themselves get caught by sexual predators. That can happen to anyone but the youth are usually more naive.
There are worse things, like murder and people don't react like this. It is possible to have more rational conversations when the topic is murder.
I think the age of consent should be puberty as long as society properly instructs teenagers on the facts about sexuality. The reason why most teenagers and many 18+ people make bad decisions about sex is due to societies sexual repression leading to things like people getting their sexual values from religion instead of the actual facts of life.
Personally, I think letting an innocent child be indoctrinated with religion is just as damaging as leaving them alone with pedophiles. One is a mind fuck the other a body fuck.
What I can't stand is how society lets teenage girls dress in sexually provacative ways, and then tells men they are perverts for even looking at them. Such BS, if you don't want men to be attracted to teenagers, have a strict dress code for them in public.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
I would agree 100% with that statement.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
i'm undecided on the issue, but from the wealth information available, i really don't think letourneau is a sexual predator.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
I also agree 100%. If sex weren't considered bad for kids by so many people, kids could be properly instructed on it well before they actually hit puberty and began to have sexual desires. A significant number of people think kids are stupid and incapable of making choices. But every kid I've ever known was smarter than most gave them credit for. The problem with kids and sex is almost exclusively an education issue. A lot of kids have no idea what an adult is doing when they are approached for sexual encounters.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
They were probably told to report to their parents if someone touched their privates, but not why or what the consequences to them could be if they were being touched.
The basic facts of sex should be taught to kids by the time they are 7-9 years old. By the time they hit puberty they should know everything there is, intellectually speaking, to know about sex and rape. Putting an arbitrary age limit on it is just stupid. If a 18 year old can have sex with a 70 year old, then there's no good reason a single year can turn the event from socially distasteful to criminal.
Maturity isn't even an argument at the age ranges most countries and locales put on consent, because full maturity doesn't settle in until the mid twenties. Since the only ones likely to wait until their mid twenties to have sex are those who'll likely be waiting a lot longer anyway, you might as well let it go at puberty and avoid having 95% of the population having a criminal record.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I agree with everything said! I knew I would find well thought rational comments here! Thanks
Exactly ! This Puritanical, longing for the 1950s, upright disdain for anything that has to do with sex is still much more dominant than some people think.
I have had friends whom were in the military, (one stationed in Japan and one stationed in Europe) that seemed to think that the attitude about it is a lot different overseas than here in the U.S. How true that is, I would not know. But judging what I have seen on ordinary BBC television and in foreign series, I would be inclined to agree with that statement.
“It is proof of a base and low mind for one to wish to think with the masses or majority, merely because the majority is the majority. Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.”
― Giordano Bruno
As potentially titillating as this all is . . . WHAT OF THE HARM?!??
There is something known as 'real life'; how you choose to live often effects others .. talk is f^cking cheap!! This is not aimed at any one individual nor meant to single out any one, in this, K? Please know I personally do apologize (sincerely) if it sounds at all this way. No escaping the creepier angel faced mistress . . you got NO PROBLEM with her ?!!! Plainly!! Unfortunate for you all, the rape of 12 year olds is one of Dana's buttons; who knew?!? Quite a few years ago, BEFORE any underpants drawers were dropped (thankfully), there was a grade-school teacher (within 150 miles of me) who was making inappropriate advances to a 11 year old, before she had entered Junior High School (still in grade school). She was only 11 guys!! He was terminated and forced to immediately retire with no hopes of EVER entering into the teaching profession again. He came perilously close to criminal prosecution, I do not know to this day how he avoided it. I don't know what kind of madness goes down in Europe nor do I frankly care!! Consider the following, So if you're somebody is stuck underground, in a real life purely hypothetical situation victim of-a mine collapsing (situation), you're actually locked in a proverbial broom-closet, just the two of them. And enough things are done, long enough to seduce the 'kid'; that is justifiable ?!?? Due to the salacious scandalous and disturbing and criminal nature, you couldn't have much of a hope of getting past what the adult did. Further consider, You lot don't recognize, if had been a young girl. it's usually all blustering outrage from all quarters of the ideological spectrum. Mainly by the guys most of all Whereas, like the book on Japan's culture entitled "The Male gaze", of it's older and young japanese males' attitudes. There's a bunch of uncharacteristically piggish juvenile tittering upon tittering. And how he quote unquote he 'got lucky'. Though I don't plan on engaging anyone on this, real-life is using a sledge hammer to draw me away (car troubles, grass fires, etc). Nevertheless, Word to the wise for all of you, it is always foolhardy for ANYONE to start to make noises they are about to defend the indefensible. Good thing that, before my ears, like a mammal, are pinned back! Conjointly, as for 'it' being negative, the moralists got you beat. I mean Pineapple (a User), case in point, peruse some of her unguarded remarks. Boy! I really mustn't be a hippie afterall, & missed out on the whole shacking -иp thing'. Other thread (little dig ).. Snakes and ladders? But, not everything is a game; now is it ?!? Hard to miss now isn't it ?
Edit -- (Edit :: 2 dropped letters . . 6 edits)
I have to agree with Dana. I don't think there is any question that Letourneau acted immorally. She was a teacher with a position of authority and respect over the kid. Whether he was coming on to her or the other way around doesn't matter. Furthermore, she was knowingly doing it against the wishes of the parents. If he had been legally emancipated from his parents, then the argument could be made that he is old enough to consent. I really don't have a problem with 13 or 14 year olds seeking emancipation, at which point they are adults in all decisions, including sexual.
However, that is not the case here. He was 12, still in the care of his parents and therefore not a full participating member of society. As such, he does not have the freedoms or responsibilities that go with that. Letourneau was fully aware of all this.
And yeah, adults having sex with 12 year olds is just creepy. Even if they are well developed for 12 year olds.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
My sociological gut says I should listen to my Libertarian gland on this one. Sexual maturity is a biological and psychological concept, not a matter of the state law cookie cutter. We evolved to be biologically mature around 13 or so and in some individuals it still happens. I remember watching a documentary about a woman from Jamaica, saying she started with sex at the age of 12, completely voluntarily, intentionally and didn't regret it.
So perhaps the state should keep away from this, make room for parents, psychologists, counselors, mediators, municipal judges, sheriffs, village elders, crowds with torches and pitchforks and anarcho-capitalist pseudo-philosophers.
But yeah, the age of consent is a good general guideline when to raise alarm, just don't take it too seriously. If the investigation causes more harm than the deed itself to everyone around, especially the non-involved, it's more of a witch hunt.
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
She did break the law and for that she was punished. She was in a position of authority and she abused that power, violating the trust of the children, parents and the school.
Is she violent? No. Is she a rapist? Not sure if this is rape, but being 34 and having sex with a 12 year old boy is incorrect. If we had only a few thousand humans left, then yes, then mating would be acceptable but does a 12 year old boy understand the complexities of sexual relationships? No. He only knows that some one is paying attention to him. He feels good and empowered because they have sex; orgasms release a lot of chemical stimuli.
Is she a predator? Yes. She definitely is so. She took advantage of the situation and it makes me wonder, based on her background, how many other children she "felt out" trying to see if she could have sex with them? Is it possible that she had sex with other boys and they were so traumatized that they have blocked it out?
Either way, society has said that she paid her dues for her crime. She is free and is able to move forward with her life. I only hope that when she is in her "late"years that this relationship shows that they really did love each other.
The key is when does a parent's right over rule all biological "feelings". No teacher has the right to violate the trust between student, parent or employer the way she did; it was a selfish act. Her past history shows that she definitely had issues. Her youth and the way she was raised, along with being divorced, having other children all played a part in this path she took.
I don't believe this boy was her only target; there are others she explored the opportunity but it just didn't work out.
this is true of a helluva lot of 23 year-olds too.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
being a sexual predator is habitual behavior. you can speculate all you want, but until there is evidence she had sex with other minors (of which there currently seems to be not a shred--not even circumstance or hearsay), speculation is all it remains. therefore, to say she is "definitely" a predator is grossly unfounded, if not slanderous.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
lol. yeah, I'd agree with you on that point.
I think that every one is different though. Did you see the movie on Kinsey?
Don't we all have issues?! Many of us had troubled infancies, been through divorces... so on... Just because society says something doesn't mean that society is correct. Meso-American civilizations believed in the sacrifice of young women to the Sun God. Who are we to say that is wrong then.
The fact that we are disgusted by something doesn't mean that it's wrong. A couple of examples: "Some lady's cat was killed accidently by a passing car. She was always curious about the taste of cat so she cooked it and ate it. Nothing of harm came to her." Second example: "Two brothers had sex and enjoyed it and do not regret the experience. They did not procreate and nothing of harm came to be"
Just go outside to clubs or where ever people hook up these days. Isn't flirtation always made by taking advantage of something? That's how we attract the opposite sex: by taking advantage of something we have. A common thing used to get women is money. Women are attracted to money. Young men are attracted to sex. One of my friends said to me that he dated a 23y old girl when he was like 14 or 15. And he really loved it. He is now almost 30 and he told me that this relation allowed him to learn a lot and grow a lot. He does not regret it. No harm done. I do envy him, I would like to have had the same opportunity.
To say that there was harm done here in the said case, is baseless unless you are talking about the harm done to her by society that did not allowed their relation to proceed naturally and their offspring to have a normal life with their mother who was in jail... They are together today still and this seems proof enough for me that they did nothing wrong and no harm was done to both... on the contrary. Society shouldn't meddle in people's private lives when no harm is being done.
I'm not sure what you are getting at; she had issues and they had an effect on her personality, which brought her to molesting 12 year old boys. She preferred a relationship with a 12 year old boy.
As a society we, in America, we can vote and voice our opinion against laws or regulations. I'm not sure what percentage changes are made if we complain, but I know it works.
Meso-American's had a lot of different rituals which were used for many different reasons. I suspect that they told people "the gods demand it" while secretly they said, "hahaha we control the people". I'm sure some people were ignorant enough to be sacrificed while others did not want to be sacrificed.
We all have opinions. None of them are right or wrong. Some are more accepted than others.
You are using the term "taking advantage of" in a different context. Taking advantage of a 12 year old boy to satisfy your ego is one thing; taking advantage of your good looks or skill set is another.
1) yes, money is used to buy hookers. 2) I guess you are talking about "gold diggers" 3) I guess you are talking about 99.99% of the male population
Dated a 23 year old? Really in what country?
1)I'm not sure what you are talking about; did I make a claim that what was done was harmful to any one? I mentioned that it is possible that she could have had sex with other boys and that they could have been tramatized.
2)What would happen if if a 32 year old man had sex with a 12 year old girl? or a 12 year old boy? WTF? I don't give a rat's ass about any person's opinion. When you are a teacher and you have sex with a 12 year old student you are being deceitful. You are abusing your power. You are abusing the trust.
3)So what happens if when she is 70 or 80 he dumps her? Is that love? Nope. That's the fantasy wearing off.
4)LMAO. I remember that when a pedo rapes your 12 year old daughter.
Oh My!.... Seriously....
I thought atheists were always more open minded and smarter then theists... but I guess not... There is so much 
here!
Ok first of all saying she raped him is not true. According to American law there is no need to prove there was rape because of the age of the boy. So rape was automatically assumed, this makes the rest of the trial a charade. They started as friends (how typical) when he was 12 and had the first intercourse when he was 13, according to what the court found. I still see no evil intentions here, I only see honest intentions. She was faithful to him and STILL is apparently... so saying she raped little boys before is completely utter nonsense and baseless. She did not sleep with him to satisfy her ego more than you satisfy yours when you sleep with a woman!
If it was not harmful to anyone, given the fact they are married today, why the F*** she was arrested?!
Second my friend is Portuguese and lives well and healthy, he is not traumatized because of having had sex with an adult woman when he was a teen.
We have every reasons to believe native American civilizations like the Aztec believed human sacrifices, both victims and priests, was something good and to look forward to. From modern religion dogmas this is easy to understand, because people believe all kinds of crap in their religion.
Thus just because society says it's ok does not make it so! Ethics can be rationalized!
I'm not using the term "taking advantage of" in a different context. It's the same context!!! Or do you think I am blind and don't see how and why most relations start?! Woman are attracted to power and money, not just hookers, quite many of them! If you are a medical doctor your chances of getting laid are bigger than if you work on a Mac Donald's restaurant. CEO with the secretary... classical "position of trust".
Your example about a 32y old man and a "12" year old girl just shows in perfection how sexist and bigot society is in "protecting innocent little girls" (sarcasm intended)
"So what happens if when she is 70 or 80 he dumps her? Is that love?"
Don't people get divorced all the time?! How do you know he will dump her?! are you omniscient?!
The incidents that so aggravate Dana and Beyond and Digital might never have happened if those kids knew what sex was and what the consequences were. If their classmates knew enough to see what was happening and interfere, as kids cannot help but do. Your emotional arguments affect me not one iota.
Now the abuse of authority is an entirely different situation. No teacher, I repeat, NO teacher, should be involved with their students. Age is irrelevant. A college professor is no more allowed to have relations with his/her students than a highschool teacher. There's too much likelyhood in such a scenario for it to be about power.
Remove the threat of abuse of power, however, and add some proper education; and you have no problem. Noone has ever demonstrated otherwise. EVER.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
Good thing most adults (over 24 yr olds) dont allow children to govern themselves
This will predictably become worse and worse, the more people begin to sound like they are endorsing this 'open mindedness' like they were a friggin' member of butterfly-kisses (IFgLC), based out of the Netherlands.
Oh And Yes, This is to you and to yours a MUST Upload image .. SEE :: image ::
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My parents were married in 1949. My father was 16 ( a "child" ? ) and my mother was 19. Remained together over 55 years...
Children who haven't hit puberty have nothing to do with what I've said. Anyone who has sex with a kid that young should be locked up.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
d(=^ΦωΦ^=)bﾉ
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"Very funny Scotty; now beam down our clothes."
VEGETARIAN: Ancient Hindu word for "lousy hunter"
If man was formed from dirt, why is there still dirt?
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re :: cat-emoticons
Url :: www.japaneseemoticons.net/cat-emoticons/
I was going to write something along these lines to the OP, as follows :: "Most people are neither swayed/convinced nor held captive 'by presentation' to determine either truth nor the merit of any position. Though prudent to keep quiet in such times, for the times are evil (Giant meme). The subject-matter and this whole topic is frankly doomed if we lose sight of what happened IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE. Innumerable studies confirm that victims will often become abusers themselves when they grow up. It's common knowledge, to most, people victims of abuse, at an early age, are sadly crippled by the manacles of Hyper-sexuality as a response to the abuse. Most were not happy, let alone happily ever after nor settling down with the person. Instead they were victimized .. about the abuse and they suffer devastating lifelong repercussions as a result"
But with the not too subtle signs he is feeling either targeted and/or singled out, I tried to scrub the whole thing and go with a cat emoticon. Granted that looks more like some kind of a equation. I guess I should have went with clear or a better example, more easily recognizable. These are better examples of cat emoticons you can find online : ヽ(=^･ω･^=)丿 ヽ(^‥^=ゞ)
F i n
Edit :: (Edited Added the URL -- to cite examples )
Well in this particular case I have read the story and the kid knew perfectly about the consequences. He was the one who "jumped" her first. Each case is a case, so making a law that arbitrarily stipulates an age of consent is just being lazy and not care about justice but about what the majority of people think is repugnant. They have met in school but their socializing was completely off the school.
In a workplace the potential for abuse of authority is much greater than in a school, put that in MANY degrees higher. I'm thinking that european schools are not that different from yours.
If there are laws that work and educated people there is no such thing as abuse of authority. You only have sex with the authority if you want to. It is wrong to fire your secretary if she doesn't want to have sex with you as is wrong to lower your student grade if he doesn't want to have sex with you. I agree with an age of consent of 14 years old which is what happens in my country of origin... this however should not be static and other considerations should be taken, because in my mind there was no wrong doing to anyone in Mary Kay's case. I have seen interviews with them and although they seem a bit weird she is not a child molester and he is not traumatized. We don't arrest people for being weird.
EDIT: I can tell you one fact that for me is crystal clear in this story. This woman was never loved in her whole life. Not by her parents or her husband, she was thirsty for love. You can see clearly on the interviews that her feelings for him are almost tangible.
Then it is doomed regardless, because IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, there was absolutely no harm, and the couple lived happily ever after.
In fact, the studies you cite all deal with pre-pubescent children. When it comes to post-pubescent, you have NOTHING to support your claims. Absolutely nothing.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
I wonder why nobody takes into account the politicians, the economic policy, the immigrant policy, the poverty in immigrant families, the sex ed teachers, the marriage counseling, the employers, and all the other people who made a shitty job out of the society. C'mon, ignore them all, go ahead and blame the kid with all the awakening hormones in the age when we jerked off five times a day just to get by, and a lonely housewife.
No, it's not your fault guys and maybe someone here already noticed it. It's just that sometimes we're so far down the wrong hole, that we're going to have consequences and nothing we ever do will ever be right, there's just the damage control and that's never going to look good on the headlines. The society and economy is sick and what the system does is deny the problem and blame the messengers.
Damn, I love the times when I get all intuitive and wise
Beings who deserve worship don't demand it. Beings who demand worship don't deserve it.
( ...it's only the "wrong hole" if she doesn't like it.
)
What makes a person a baseball player?
Never mind. Don't respond. I just got back in to town and was reading some of the OP's posts. I'm done with this subject.
It's amazing, but I agree with you. I agree with you in every aspect.