"Connected" is crap be it religious mythology or si fi woo.
Offline Be it an atheist version, or part of some sects of Asian/Oriental or Indian religions.
There are people with gods or godless who have a really stupid idea that "all this" is connected. Some think of it as cognitive or even if not cognitive, somehow living.
No sorry guys, neither new age si fi thinking or mixing it with old mythology makes the universe all "connected". It is true that all this started in one tiny dense space. But that was then. None of us have any connection now, to an electron or quark or atom on the furthest galaxies away from us. There has been since the big bang, tons of speed and separation.
It is still a watered down way of dreaming of being infinite. This universe is not a living thing, living things in it are an outcome, not a requirement or starting point or cause. The universe is uncaring like a our atmosphere on this planet, you can have sunny days, but you can also have hurricanes and tornados. The universe is vastly hostile and violent, we only perceive it as calm because we don't think about it's long term history.
So even without thinking of it as a god, it is still stupid to get stuck on even a si fi pretty. Yes there are pretty things in the universe. And it is even freaky to think of all the matter starting in the same spot. But no, I really wish people would stop letting their emotions allow them to think an object, a giant weather pattern, somehow is capable of giving one shit about humans.
"All this" is a giant weather pattern and we are merely a finite blip riding in it. It is ok to have a deep appreciation for what we observe. But please do not turn it into a mythology, religion or even a Star Trek episode. Science and nature are awesome without old woo or new woo.
I think it is awesome to think about the fact that I do not contain one single atom from when I was a sperm and egg or even a baby. I think it is awesome to think about neutrinos and black holes and red giants. I do not feel in any case the need to turn it into a god or a si fi movie.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
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Dp
No you took the OP out of context just like you fucking assume that when I say "the pay gap is too big" somehow that makes me a Stalin communist nanny state lover.
The point of the OP is that you don't fucking gap fill with old myth, superstition, or even si fi woo. Nothing in QM negates physics or Einstien. Going from a hammer and nail, to a nail gun, does not negate the hammer. The nail gun is simply an improvement.
Now since you wont listen to me, just like you wont listen to Nick, Bob just made a post and he knows way more than you and has a degree.
We are finite, QM will not make our biological brains magically infinite. Our material has mass and when that mass is no longer structured to the function we observe as a brian, we die. No ammount of religion or Star Wars thinking is magically going to make humans infinite.
"We don't know" does not equate to "anything goes". There still are things we do know that allow us to throw bullshit in the trash can.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
My first post was merely a one liner about how modern quantum theory does state that everything is connected. If that was out of context with your OP you could have simply clarified by saying something like "Well yeah, but that isn't the kind of connectedness I was talking about. I am talking about the type peddled by Chopra & company." I would have agreed and moved on to probably never visit this thread again. Instead, you said things weren't connected in ANY way, and brought up the specific example of an electron on the other side of the universe having absolutely nothing to do with you, a claim that is flat out false and you have repeated several times.
Also, I have NEVER called you a communist. Most communists I have met are extremely intelligent people with an intelligent and thought out worldview and I would never insult them by lumping your unprincipled, ignorant and random political views based on how you feel at the moment with theirs.
I NEVER made that argument, the source YOU linked to did. Personally, I don't have the knowledge to really say one way or the other how qm fits with the rest of physics. And the whole tangent is irrelevant to my point that everything in the universe may be connected at a quantum level and an electron on the other side of the universe may affect you.
Bob didn't say anything about connectedness, but if he does have anything to say about it I will read it. I wasn't aware Bob's degree was in physics. Regardless, if I have been wrong about anything I've said I always appreciate being corrected. Like I said, I have really struggled to wrap my mind around the concepts of quantum physics, which is rare for me because usually I grasp concepts quickly.
I never made any of those claims.
I never said anything goes either. One of the things we do know is that everything in the universe is connected at a quantum level if current theories are correct. What the implications and applications of that fact is something for people smarter than me to figure out.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
NO IT DOES NOT YOU IDIOT!
QM is merely a shitload of "either/or, BOTH, and neither" all at the same time so "IT DEPENDS". None of that negates physics.
IT FUCKING DEPENDS!
AND it still does not fucking justify any fucking religion or Star Wars thinking in any fucking case.
It is why LITTERALLY a wave can be a particle and a wave or neither or both. IT FUCKING DEPENDS.
Now I think you are also stupidly stuck on the "fabric" issue. It would still be like throwing a rock in the ocean, that "wave" will not affect the entire ocean, just like our sun cannot affect a sun on the other side of the universe.
That is why the word "relative" is used. BECAUSE IT FUCKING DEPENDS.
Separation and lack off interaction STILL APPLIES. Because "IT DEPENDS".
The freaky part is that it is pointing to BOTH chaos and order, something and nothing, separate and connected all at the same time and neither at the same time. QM is simply a huge amount of looking at severe amounts of math at a tiny level that does not rule out anything(at that level, but it does not need religion or si fi bullshit).
There is separation. Get the fuck over it.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Wow, I am impressed by your ability to compress an entire complex scientific field into one line, you are a genius.
I never claimed it did.
Your point is?
When you throw a rock in the ocean, it does have an effect throughout the entire ocean. Just because you don't have equipment sensitive enough to detect it after a certain distance is irrelevant, the effect is there and could be measured with the right technology. Only a bloody fucking imbecile would say the ocean isn't connected to the rest of the ocean. My understanding is that the comparison isn't 100% analogous to the connection at the quantum level, but probably close enough for laymen. The idea of nonlocality is fucking mind blowing, but that is an idea that quantum physicists take seriously.
For practical purposes in our day to day lives yes. However, at a quantum level separation and interaction as we understand the are irrelevant.
Prove it. If you could, you would be the most brilliant physics minds to ever exist.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Nothing negates seperation. Go back and read Bob's post, and fucking argue with him.
The only thing I am trying to destroy is the missuse of "connection" in the context of si fi crap and religious crap.
QM is, all of the following. Eeither/or, chaos and order, separate and connected, something and nothing, overlap and dissconected, neither and both. That is what makes it freaky.
There is nothing about string theory or particle/waves that magically makes us connected like some stupidly want it to be. We are still finite beings and we live in a reality, even with all the freaky things that QM says, that still has no care for us or our existence. We are NOT connected in some grand scheem based on a religoin or bullshit si fi show.
The sun on the other side of the universe has NO FUCKING AFFECT on our sun. See Bob's post.
The only one trying to oversimplyfy anything is YOU.
You are tring to justify some sort of "oneness" which is not what QM does. A "unified" theory is only going to give us a better unserstanding. It will not make humans infinite.
It is the same mental mistake of assuming infinite and finite are mutually exclusive. They are not. Whatever QM tells us or uncovers will not negate biological life being finite.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
What is funny as hell is that all kinds of people, theologians, physicists, MDs, biologists, futurists, people like Ray Kurzweil, hell you name it, they don't REALLY dick about jack shit. Don't get me wrong, they are NOT stupid by any means, but there are theories as plentiful as cereal box tops and nobody has really tested to any level that proves anything. We, as humans, have only been as far as the moon and our equipment, crude as it is, has only got a far as the edge of the solar system. We have not really even begun to scratch the surface and to try to make grandios statments about existence are nothing more than very educated circle jerk guesses. I don't say this to offend anyone on here, or even try to get under your skin. I just live my life the way I have to so as to get by and TRY to be happy.
AND FYI Beyond, you personally may not be trying to prop up religion with science, but other people do, be it with old physics or QM. This post was a result of seing these tactics everywhere not just here. Science is religion independent and always has been.
Stephen Hawkins "A god is not required". So whatever QM says about the word "connection" it still does not need humans nor some stupid superstition even without a personal god, our thoughts continuing. Once our structers that allow us our functions are not in the same shape they will no longer work. So even with waves, those waves still have to produce energy and mass in a structure that allows that structure to work. We are an outcome not a requirment.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
I agree humans have not scratched the surfice. But letting go of the past and ditching bullshit helps. It is why we no longer think the sun rotates around the earth. It is also why women have the right to vote and why we no longer own slaves. I think we can also do fine with out any of the modern monotheism or modern polytheism. I think we can do fine without morons like Defuck Chumpra, psychics or the Pope. It isn't that all of it will go away, or that you can force it out of existence, but the more you challenge it verbally at a minimum, the less place the bullshit has to hide. The only thing I am advocating is using the trashcan of bad claims. You still can only lead a horse to water as the saying goes.
I don't think while some are happy not getting involved in it, it is a good idea to completely ignore bad claims. Saying shit happens does not mean it is good to ignore it.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
http://intuition-indepth.blogspot.com/2008/06/quantum-physics-for-real-dummies.html
Scroll down the to the video, you should be able to handle a cartoon. It is demonstrating the weirdness of everything and nothing, overlap and disconnection. It shows we are connected and disconnected at the same time. This does not rule out disconnection.
The point of QM is not connected or disconnected, that is what is so fucked up about it. It is a very accurate science to use, but it is not giving you in the idea of "connected" that absolute you want. The opposite of connected is disconnected. Just like a partical can be a wave or a particle, can be nowhere and somewhere at the same time. None of this changes mass once it gets to our 3 D level, which is where we are stuck. Math may give us insight to what we cannot see, but we are not going to create a 3 D structure to shrink ourselves to a quantum level to move through it. Our physics as our mass is structured at the macro level is finite. The only thing QM will do is improve our understanding at that level. At best in our macro world we can improve on speed and communication. None of this negates classical physics, it is simply a bigger microscope with more power.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Have you seen this site?
www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2012/02/23/everything-is-connected/
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jygJ9yCndhI
This is another video that freaks me out. But again, in viewing this there are still caviates that right now seem to have us stuck where we are at. It impossible for most people to accept that when you are looking at the sun(not directly) as it was 8 minutes ago. One point in it talks about the "transporter" idea, but the guy says that is only on paper and highly improbable as a reality becasuse of the shear amount of atoms and particles that you would have to replicate, move and put back in the exact same order. It seems that even time travel and wormholes are "possible" but again, unlikely when you try to apply our macro world to them. All these issues with time and QM allow us to see beyond the state we are in, but they do not make everything possilble by default. Right now even with what we know about the freaky nature of this "illusion", we are still stuck in that arrow.
I only view this "illusion" as an acceptance of perspective. I do not see that as licence to say "our future" which is personal to us from our perspective, as allowing for religion or si fi crap.
Again, the freaky things scinece points to do not mean "anything goes".
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Hey I just posted that in a privious post.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
jesus christ, brian, i don't even have a dog in this fight about "connectedness," but can't you ever just fucking say, "oh, you might have a point. i'm still skeptical, but maybe i should look more into it."
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
@Brian37
For an atheist you seem to take a weak stance on debating. I've been studying debate for several years as previously I didn't understand proper debate. I wanted to learn how formal debating worked and more about fallacies. Even from my limited studies you don't follow any logical presentation of your point of view. Instead you present yourself as a self centered, self supporting, confused individual which is what many Christians do.
You state claims but with out evidence supporting the claims. You made up an Einstein quote and when presented with this fact you instead chose to ignore it and move on to a rant about a position which lacked support of the original post. Your posts were peppered with watered down views and when presented with this you instead ignored the inconsistencies and fallacies, but instead rehashed the same argument.
I don't speak for every one here but from what I have seen the logical, organized and collected atheists who don't believe in a god/creator, do not debate a Christians that god doesn't exist. They debate the 'facts and evidence' which Christians present as being absolute proof. The pick apart their presentation bit by bit exposing their fallacies and weaknesses of the argument. They do not blurt out "god is false and it is woo woo" or "it is stupid to think that way". Those style of attacks are ignorant and lacking of logic; they expose the mentality of the speaker.
So if you wonder why so many people on these forums treat you the way they treat you, take a step back and look at your posts. Maybe if you see the immaturity in your posts it could be possible that you could win over respect of your peers and sustain a proper argument for more than a paragraph with out looking like a total tool.
Actaully that was not the link Bob posted.
I am not going to get into bullshit with you guys. QM does not equate to either religion woo or si fi woo. That is what I ment in the title. The structures that make up life and non life at our level will NOT function when broken down to lesser parts at the same level when in tact. "Connected" is a word both use to justify bullshit. It is the same missunderstanding of the word law and theory. For matter to behave a certain way with stability it has to have a specific structure. Our thoughts will not move on their own through separate from our bodies without that structure.
Neither macro physics or QM require a religion, nor will it make "all this" connected they way they want it to be. We will not find unicorns or giant human like figures outside our background radiation. Nor does QM need a statue of a fat guy or a dead man on a stick to understand. We are not important to "all this". We are not infinite in that our thoughts are separate from our bodies. We are stuck at our macro level and once that is gone, whatever the particles do will not include us the way we are now. We are still finite.
The laws of physics still apply to us. They will act on us and we will decay and we will no longer exist just we did not exist before we were born.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
http://www.askamathematician.com/2013/03/q-does-quantum-mechanics-really-say-that-theres-some-probability-that-objects-will-suddenly-start-moving-or-that-things-can-suddenly-shift-to-the-other-side-of-the-universe/
Notice the caviats in this. Especially the responses.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
You must be a god because you know every thing.
Here's a bone for you Beyond, The NOVA video about space and time is partialy funded by your friend Mr Koch. Would be nice if he can accept that time is also a freaky thing, he should be able to understand that fossil fuels are fucking up the planet.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Fine tell you what(not recommending it) but if you feel "all this" is "connected" feel free to blow your head off with a shotgun, use whatever QM tunnling or wormhole or transporter theory you have, and poof your entire self into my room right now and show me I am wrong. But, like I said, I wouldn't reccomend it. And you can use your Buddha theory too if you wish, but make sure you include Hindu theory and Christian theory and Muslim theory in your control groups.
Otherwise don't gap fill by projecting human qualities on either physics or QM. It is still anthropomorphism.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2012/02/23/everything-is-connected/
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
http://www.askamathematician.com/2013/01/q-what-is-quantum-teleportation-why-cant-we-use-it-to-communicate-faster-than-light/
Notice the picture bitch slapping the Star Trec version. There are si fi bullshit that QM does not prop up and never will.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
http://www.quora.com/How-is-it-that-all-electrons-can-simultaneously-be-aware-of-the-energy-levels-of-all-other-electrons-in-the-universe
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
At this point, I suppose I agree with your OP in the sense you are implying, but I can't help but feel that most of this thread could've been avoided.
Imo, for someone that despises Deepak Chopra so much (not to say that I support the guy or anything), you throw around complex scientific concepts and loaded philosophical words far too carelessly.
Like here:
And here:
And here:
Etc:
To have a productive conversation on this kind of topic, you need to be more precise and rigorous in your terminology. You may think you are making a keen observation when you say that QM is both order and chaos, but that is utterly meaningless to everyone else until you elaborate. Repeating the assertion does not make the conversation more enlightening, only more exasperating. Instead of posting more and more text, you'd be better off spending time trying to understand where other people disagree with you and directly addressing those concerns.
Our revels now are ended. These our actors, | As I foretold you, were all spirits, and | Are melted into air, into thin air; | And, like the baseless fabric of this vision, | The cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces, | The solemn temples, the great globe itself, - Yea, all which it inherit, shall dissolve, | And, like this insubstantial pageant faded, | Leave not a rack behind. We are such stuff | As dreams are made on, and our little life | Is rounded with a sleep. - Shakespeare
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASZWediSfTU&t=556
Notice how he explains what "connected" means in REAL QM, not si fi crap, not "this is all one giant conciousness". The only thing my OP was trying to explain is DONT GAP FILL WITH ANY SORT OF WOO!
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
The speed of light is based on conditions of the current Universe we live in.
You live in a tiny little box.
Thank you for your observation.
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Why because you don't want to face the truth than none of QM props up old myths? If you want to prop up si fi crap or falsely believe this "connection" is some giant consciousness, have at it, still not true. We are still finite and "all this" is incapable of caring about us because it isn't biological life and is not structured like us. Wave and particles do not function as the in tact mass we are while we function in this living state all by themselves. Our specific structure allows for conciousness. "Information" as science treats it, does not treat the word as living human being. That is not what science means by "connected", and seperation still applies.
A wave or a particle is not an in tact living thing on it's own. We are a collection and that collection is a specific arrangement. You cannot treat a car tire as being the entire car. That is where you are screwing up thinking "connected" means the same thing. Seperation still applies in the universe. Otherwise if we separated our head from our bodies, from your stupid logic, wave function would still allow that broken system to work the same way as if it were still in tact.
"All this" is not a giant consciousness like our biological evolution has produced in humans. They are completely dissimilair. Our being made up of atoms does not make the universe a living thing itself. Energy and mass by themselves do not constitute something being alive. The structure of life has a specific arangment.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
well said. well, well said. i'd like to print out this fucking post and frame it.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
You "You don't know everything so Buddha explains everything"
Muslim "You don't know everything so Allah explains everything"
Jew, "You don't know everything so Yahweh explains everything"
Hindu "You don't know everything so our god/s" explains everything"
Si fi fan "Gene Roddenbury invented the modern cell phone"
Pantheist, "All this is a giant thinking being"
Real science, "Nope, that only explains our species ability to pull shit out of it's ass"
You do the same thing people outside the top levels of science do, you retrofit after the fact because you got stuck on pretty. And that is the gatekeeper fallacy power throughout history has resisted. The entire New Cosmos series with Neil Degreess Tyson, in just about every episode SHOWS us how flawed our perceptions can be.
None of that series asserts that science knows everything right now. It is saying and he says and I agree, and so would Bob, that we do have better data now and it is OK to scrap the old crap. Not only ok, but wise.
You got stuck on pretty, nothing more. That is gap filling and the powers that were in the past and even today outside science don't like having their social norms upset.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
i'm not a buddhist. i've stated in several threads over the years, including as recently as last week, that i am not a buddhist because i do not accept several of the basic tenets of buddhism.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
The issue I have with all these links you post is that you are using science which is still being studied. Yeah, they know certain things happen but many times they don't know why, then there are times when they have a result but not the action. See Dark Matter and Dark Energy.
These fields are still in their infancy. The 'experts' in these fields are changing their views constantly, take Astronomy for example. In the last twenty years the idea that they had previously formulated have been blown out of the water. We had legitimate scienetists, very respected in their fields, back track because they didn't think there was water on other planets, including our Moon and Mars. Also in recent years they have been discovering the exoplanets which is a completely new field of Astronomy and it changing so fast that no one is really considered an expert because of the vast number of discoveries made each year.
In the field of physics, quantum (whatever) and all the theoretical sciences, there is just not enough evidence to say one way or another that these theories are 100% correct. All these can say currently is that there is no way that an object with any mass can go faster than the speed of light. There are specific requirements for that statement to be true. 1) the object must have mass 2) it must exist in this Universe 3) What is Dark Matter and how does it affect mass and energy in this Universe.
With that being said, Dark Matter and Dark Energy are game changers in your opinions. Science knows nothing about them and as I stated previously, they know these items are having an effect on the Universe and every thing inside it.
There isn't enough science to claim either side as being the ultimate theory. They are all working theories subject to change.
I've never claimed there was an intelligent Universe or any mental connection to it. My claim is (and this is a very broad subject) that a star on the other side of the Universe (and I use 'other side' in a very layperson term) has an effect on every other object in the Universe through a connection of every other object in the Universe.
You must also consider the shape of the Universe and the effect that Dark Matter has on every thing else in the Universe.
I'm not sure what you are getting at by bringing up wave functions but for a car or a person, you can remove many different parts and those subjects still function as intended.
I've never claimed there was a "giant consciousness".
I'll save the rest of my response to another post I saw briefly. I think it will be better suited other than here.
Wow. OK then include yourself and every thing you believe in that "shows us how flawed our perceptions can be". Then take a step back and ask yourself "what do I really know?"
Science can not answer every thing is correct statement. It is my opinion science has only answered 1% of the knowledge of our visible Universe.
As for my Buddhist beliefs you can shithole what you think you know. I follow only the 4 Noble Truths. I reject every thing else and have been learning on my own. There is too much corruption in the dogma of those who did not seek enlightenment but instead wanted material wealth and power. I have realized that by following the 4 Noble Truths every thing else has fallen in to place and I have learned what I needed through experience. I have met the Buddha; I have killed the Buddha.
If you believe that you live and die and then cease to exist and all is lost in death, there is no transference of information to cells or there is no energy pattern that continues, then if you are happy with this idea, then go in peace and enjoy your life. My opinion and my beliefs do not matter to you as they matter to me. Trying to convince me of your belief is illogical and a waste of your time and resources. Only one who has given up and is searching for a leader will listen to you. I am not searching for a leader therefore I reject your views and will not follow you.
Look, Iwbiek, I know you have Brian in your sights, and his manner pisses you off, but can't you cut him at least enough of a break to acknowledge that whatever else he is doing, he IS looking into it, as evidenced by the fact that he had already found and posted a link to a great page on this very subject that I just posted, before I did!
Favorite oxymorons: Gospel Truth, Rational Supernaturalist, Business Ethics, Christian Morality
"Theology is now little more than a branch of human ignorance. Indeed, it is ignorance with wings." - Sam Harris
The path to Truth lies via careful study of reality, not the dreams of our fallible minds - me
From the sublime to the ridiculous: Science -> Philosophy -> Theology
I have brian in MY sights? this is the guy who follows me onto threads that have nothing to do with our general argument and takes potshots at me, a favor I haven't returned. I might not be able to stomach him, but I at least limit my attacks to relevant conversations. It's not just his "manner," it's an arrogant and fanatical devotion to whatever argument he's taken up at the moment. Show me a single post on here where he hasn't been 100% sure of himself, even when obviously misinformed. Why hasn't he acknowledged his apocryphal einstein quote? Does he ever retract anything??? No, he just ignores. He's proud and he's stupid. Worst of all, he's proud of his stupidity, and if you were truly his friend, you at least wouldn't defend that.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Do you even read your links brian? Let's go back to the beginning. The part of your OP I was responding to was
To which I wrote the short reply,
Mostly I was just being a smart ass and fully expected a reply along the lines of "that isn't the kind of connection I was talking about you idiot, evolution evolution evolution". Which probably would have ended the thread. Instead, you dug your hole deeper
You falsely attributed a quote to Einstein (which you still haven't acknowledged)
The you kept digging,
A claim you have continually made throughout the thread, which is absolutely false under most modern quantum theories. So now let us take a look at the link posted by Saint Bob since apparently he is defacto authority. He didn't grace us with any of his comments on the subject, so I guess we just have to read the link and figure out what it says ourselves. Something you clearly failed to do, since the only part you quoted was criticism of what Brian Cox said, not the idea itself. Clearly, both Sean Carroll and Brian Cox know far more about quantum physics than either of us, quite frankly, I don't consider myself anywhere near qualified to take a side in the dispute between them, although my sense is that the dispute is more linguistic and how to translate into non-geek than anything. Regardless, Sean does say quite a bit about connectedness.
All emphasis mine:
Okay, so his real dispute seems to be that Brian referred to the Pauli Exclusion Principle. That seems confirmed the very next paragraph.
Fair enough, he thinks viewers might get the wrong idea because Brian was careless in his description. A few paragraphs down he says,
IOW, in principle, if an electric field on the other side of the universe changes, the wave function of every electron changes just a little bit. That would include those in you. Skipping forward a bit in interest of time,
Again, his main pick seems to be the attribution to the exclusion principle. Sean is saying that everything is connected, when something changes here, it spreads throughout the whole universe (and maybe beyond?) perhaps at the speed of light, so it might take a hell of a long time. But your original claim that I have spent time disputing, and you have doubled down on multiple times.
Guess Sean Carroll is a moron.
What Sean just said is directly contrary to that. The only way your statement is in ANY way true is if you qualify it with "perceptible". It might be true that an electron on the other side of the universe will never have any perceptible effect on an electron in our neighborhood. Even then the statement should probably be tempered with a "might" or at most a "probably" because who knows what our measuring tools in the future will be? Perhaps at some point we will actually discover a way to trace back these changes somehow and make some predictions about electrons that are millions or billions of lightyears away.
Sean then goes on to discuss quantum entanglement, which also suggests there is some kind of connection.
So I don't see how anything I have said is contrary to Sean. All I said is that according to most modern quantum theories, everything is connected. I didn't attribute and god, religious, conscious or any such properties to that connection. I repeatedly stated that whatever effect from particles across the galaxy have are imperceptible and for practical day to day purposes irrelevant as of now. At least not until some geniuses find a way to make this sort of thing applicable in our day to day tech. Indeed, I didn't even say quantum mechanics is right. For all I know, it is completely wrong and there is actually zero connection between us and particles across the galaxy. I'm certainly nowhere near informed or qualified enough to have an opinion on the theories. But these are smart people and they believe that there is a connection. Exactly what that connection means and how to characterize it and whether we can do anything useful with that information are different issues.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Not "connected" in any Star Wars or Star Trec sense, and not "connected" in any religious snese. Science is science and the other is merely human immagination.
Noting in QM says there is an afterlife or prior life or consciousness. Nothing in QM justifies any form of si fi woo either. QM will never prop up bullshit.
Science without either at that level is freaky enough without adding superflous garbage to it.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Nor does it prop up any of your bullshit, and just like religious zealots, you will refuse to admit you were wrong, continue fabricating quotes from dead people, and continue to avoid any kind of serious conversation. Meanwhile, you will be rudely dismissive of people who are more intelligent and better informed than you, and arrogantly dismissive of anything that doesn't fit into your tiny little box world view.
I'd be willing to bet that among quantum physicists there are more star trek fans than the average population. Sci fi is fiction, but it is often fiction written by people who have a love of science and attempt to predict what the future might be like. Obviously, when you are predicting what hundreds of years into the future might look like with only todays knowledge, you are going to be radically wrong about a lot of things. Both creating inventions that might ultimately be impossible and in other areas creating stuff that will be surpassed surprisingly fast. I love reading old sci fi like Heinlein from a current day perspective. Things like iPads and the Internet have far surpassed what he thought possible in his early works. One particularly humorous passage was a rather tortured explanation that essentially was a bulky fax machine capable of sending pictures- he never considered the possibility and ease of e-mail. How could he have in the 1940's?
So while we don't have, and might never have a process like transporting (and not a single soul in the world actually believes that is the direct implication of quantum theories except for your field of strawmen), no doubt Star Trek inspired many of the great young minds we have to pursue actual studies in these fields. And who knows, maybe hundreds or thousands of years from now we will discover a way to travel in a similar way to transporters- or maybe a much better way. We are certainly much closer to creating a copy of replicators and our cell phones have far exceeded the capability of communicators. WTF was Spock doing carrying around all those bulky tricorders when all he needed was a smartphone?
To be so arrogantly dismissive does nothing but show you for the angry little petty man you are.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Quit your bitching, who started this thread? Are you going to claim I put a gun to your head and forced you to enter this thread and respond to it?
Just like you don't capitalize your sentances, pointing out my errors does not mean the OP is wrong. You will NOT find any credible scientist at the top levels saying that QM justifies any type of Star Wars or religious crap.
QM only justifies what the labs find, not what you want to shoehorn in after the fact. "Connected" does not mean what you would like it to mean. You are pulling the same crap as when Christians say "theory" is only a guess" or "Law means lawgiver".
Nor does QM negate macro physics. One is used to look at the big, the other is used to look at the small, but neither justify any sort of woo.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
i'm not bitching. i'm kicking your fucking ass, not only to you but to your one remaining pal on this site. the only thing i might bitch about is that it is too easy.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
You are kicking my ass? You have a very bad sample rate when you try to paint me as an isolated person with no friends. You are not kicking my ass. You are acting like a highschool brat because someone didn't treat you like a teacher. Low traffic on one site is not my collective interaction on all the websites I hang out at. You simply don't like me.
Let me set you streight.
QM=QM
QM does not equal "Buddhism is true". QM does not equal "The transporter of Star trec is possible". It also doesn't make thor real either. QM wil not make Jesus rise from the dead either. "Connected" in QM also does not make "information" on a wave level the same as biological life an an in tact human brain.
QM=QM............Or is that too many letters for you to comprehend? You don't like me, that is going to happen on a planet of 7 billion.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
The only one who doesn't seem to realize that your "arguments" tend to be pointless rants is you. You are either incapable or unwilling to ever address the actual points someone presents.
For example, not a single person on this site has made any claims even similar to the above. Of course, a man who would just make up an Einstein quote out of convenience and then ignore it when called out for it can't be counted on to be honest about what the post he is replying to says either. The real head scratcher is that you KNOW on this site you are going to be called out on it. Maybe on other sites you are surrounded by idiots who don't bother checking such things, but you know the people on this site are generally above average in intelligence and are more likely to google your bullshit quotes to fact check. Yet you have misquoted multiple historical figures. Perhaps you suffer from the same disease as Caposkia.
Even if iwbiek liked you, your inability to put together a cohesive argument and your inability or unwillingness to comprehend the arguments made against your position would remain at the same dreadful state. You really are proof that college degrees aren't necessarily worth the paper they are printed on.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X
Said the guy who ignors a billinaire who disagrees with him.
It isn't that hard.
You don't use crap claims that were not produced from scientific method. Now if you go back and click on the links of SCIENTISTS that I provided, it should not matter to you what you think of me . Those scients are saying the same thing I am and it isn't that hard, "DONT GAP FILL".
Which do you care more about, someone you personally do not like, or the facts in those links in this threads that were provided, not just by me but by Bob as well.
Oh and don't hand me this crap about college degrees don't matter. They do, that is why we have PHD scientists. Beyond all you are saying is that you don't like me personally. And?
You "Brian you are an idiot so therefore everything you say is wrong".
QM=QM and is tested and fasified by those in that field and peer reviewed by those in that field. It is not tested by fans using si fi shows or fans of any religion. Labs are completely independant(or should be) of any personal woo. Anyone who tries to shoehorn their own personal likes into a lab should not be there.
Do I belong in a lab? Hell no. Dont make a good cook either. But I do know the people at the top of science fields will all tell you not to gap fill.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
i'm not talking about QM. are you capable of discussing your own shortcomings? you don't even try to justify your shortcomings. you just pretend they don't exist.
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
I'm going to print this out and frame it.
{sincere slow clap}
"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright. . . . Or maybe 'stupid' is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone. They will not inherit the earth, but then neither will I. . . . And I have learned to live, as it were, with the idea that I will never find peace and happiness, either. But as long as I know there's a pretty good chance I can get my hands on either one of them every once in a while, I do the best I can between high spots."
--Hunter S. Thompson
Why should I accept positions taken by billionaires without the same critical evaluation I would give if anyone else said it? Should we just do whatever billionaires say because they are rich? In that case, you should be lining up behind the Koch brothers, they are 100 times richer than Nick Hanauer and together are richer than Buffett. Why have you avoided this question after I have asked it half a dozen or more times? How do I know you will ignore it now? I must be psychic.
I went to the links you provided. If you READ my post, you will see I quoted large amounts of Sean's arguments that demonstrate you are completely wrong while nothing I have said in this thread is incorrect.
Bob has contributed nothing to this thread yet except for a link, which proves you wrong.
No, I don't think you are worth the time of day to bother disliking. I find you amusing to toy with the same way a cat toys with a mouse. What I am saying is that you are arrogant, close minded, willfully ignorant and increasingly dishonest. You have yet to actually directly address any of those accusations made by not only me, but damn near everyone who frequents this site. I didn't say college degrees don't matter, I said they aren't "neccessarily worth the paper they are printed on" and I was talking about YOUR degree, not the PHDs studying qm.
No, Brian everything you say is wrong and you fail to make an effort to learn, therefore you are an idiot.
More proof you didn't read or comprehend my post.
I never "filled" any gap. I explicitly made the claim that we just don't know for certain, which is the exact opposite of filling a gap- it is acknowledging that a gap is there and it is okay. And we don't. There is a shit ton about quantum mechanics that we simply can't explain yet in a complete and thorough way. When I made that comment, you devolved back to ape shit. There are a couple of major competing theories that seem to be supported by the evidence, and it is possible that no one has actually grasped the reality yet and a better more comprehensive theory that may or may not be based on anything around right now will be developed by some genius in the future.
YOU are the one who filled the gaps by declaring absolutes that are nowhere near proven (and have strong evidence against them). YOU are the one who claimed that an electron on the other side of the galaxy has ABSOLUTELY NO relationship with any electron on earth. What is that doing? It is filling a gap, because really, we don't know for sure yet. Current theory believes there is some relationship and that changes in energy fields do spread across the entire universe. And until we have a comprehensive theory, we won't really know. Even then, actually getting physical proof will be difficult since we can't travel to the other side of the univers to test anything. We have to assume that electrons on the other side of the galaxy act exactly like the ones here, which sounds like a reasonable assumption, but might not be. Maybe if we ever do get to the other side of the universe we will find out that electrons act differently. Yet, Brian37 comes along and fills that uncertainty with obnoxious, arrogant and ignorant certainty, just like a bad used car salesman. Then you accuse me of filling gaps, it is funny and a little sad.
If, if a white man puts his arm around me voluntarily, that's brotherhood. But if you - if you hold a gun on him and make him embrace me and pretend to be friendly or brotherly toward me, then that's not brotherhood, that's hypocrisy.- Malcolm X