Question for Rook on Free Will - Any Contradictions?
This is a simple question for Rook, considering his expertise. First some background. Christians often respond to the problem of evil by discussing man's free will. If man is free, they say, God is unable to interfere with the moral evils committed by humans. If one human murders another, supposedly God cannot interfere with the free will to do so.
I think there are a number of ways to defeat this argument. However, I have been impressed with the tactic of using the Bible AGAINST Christians who seem to cite verse for every counter-argument.
That said, I thought it would be helpful if there were actual contradictions in the Bible on the assertion that God does not interfere with human free will.
Rook, or anyone else, have you found any passages in the Bible in which God undermines or subverts human free will?
If there is anywhere in the Bible in which God HAS bypassed human free will, then it is CERTAINLY not outside his powers, and there is no reason for the moral human evils that are ever present in today's world.
I have often thought that it would be completely possible and morally compulsory for an omnibenevolent, omniscient God to allow people to TRY to commit murder, and other heinous deeds, but prevent people from dying from murder, or suffering as a result of the intended actions. After all, God is keeping a list of all your bad deeds and good deeds. If, in this new system, you "killed" someone knowingly, God could resurrect the person from the dead, smite you down, send you to hell, and the victim would not have to die -- and his family would not suffer from his passing.
If the Bible shows that God has the power to intervene with human free will -- somewhere -- then the Christian answer to theodicy/problem of evil fails.
Thank you,
--DoctorO
REDUCTIO AD ABSURDUM.
- Login to post comments
The one that pops immediately to mind is when god hardened pharoah's heart and made him change his mind about letting the Israelites go free. I don't know the exact quote, but obviously it's toward the beginning of exodus.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I sent a copy of this post to a friend of mine and this is what was returned:
It seems that this guy has a variation on the argument from suffering, which is typically countered by Xtians with a question like "by what standard do you judge God immoral?"
On the question of "free will," your friend has stumbled upon one of the biggest debates in theological circles, that of Calvinism and Arminianism. The former typically holds that there is no free will due to total hereditary depravity or its understanding of original sin. Therefore, man must do evil due to the nature of he inherited from Adam and that God's grace is the only means by which he can accomplish any unfettered good. This article will explain further:
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/questions/freewill.html
God ordains all that will come to pass, good and evil (Isaiah 45:7 and Amos 3:6).
Pharaoh’s Heart: Exodus 4:21 “The LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but (B)I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.” (See also Exodus 7:3, 13; 9:12, 35; 10:1, 20, 27; 14:4, . Some Xtians have attempted to describe such verses as poetic in nature. To this Reformed Xtian theologian, scholar, apologist and translator James White stated:
“The atheists problem is not, as Armstrong seems to think, a narrow view of Biblical hermeneutics that refuses to recognize the finer nuances of the Hebrew language in plain speech. It is that his view of God is Biblically deficient such that he has no room for the concept of a just and holy God who owes nothing to His creation except the judgment of death for sin, and yet who, in His love and mercy, seeks to save some from that just penalty by redeeming them through the blood of His only Son. Furthermore, this God endeavors to order the whole of creation and the purposes of all men such that ultimate good is achieved for His people, and His name is glorified throughout heaven and earth.” - http://www.aomin.org/index.php?itemid=1582
See also Deuteronomy 2:30; Joshua 11:20; 1 Samuel 6:6; Isaiah 63:17; John 12:40; Romans 9:17, 18 and Proverbs 21:1 "The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes."
Hope this helps. Please let folks know where to get more of this sort of information.
INQUIRER
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=107741751&MyToken=245b576f-37e9-45b7-8b37-835b239abbda
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
You're in luck! I too was curious about all the times God messes around with free will, where it's mentioned that God doesn't respect free will, or verses concerning predestination, which contradicts free will. I've got a little list going.
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
Thank you all for your generous amount of help on this topic. It would seem that the Christian's exegesis of the Bible is highly in question on the issue of free will. If, in ANY case, God can "harden someone's heart" and change human free will -- then he can most certainly prevent a murderer from murdering.
One might ask why he didn't at the very least send down an angel to plead with Hitler to stop killing Jews. Especially since Hitler used Christianity to persuade people to kill Jews!
My usual method of debate is to grant the human evil part of the theodicy issue and simply discuss natural human suffering... disease, natural disasters, etc.
Now I can stop granting the human evil component and attack their reasoning on both points.
REDUCTIO AD ABSURDUM.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
Ah, I see I'm far too slow in answering these. I'm sorry, but also I'm thrilled to know that so many other people have stepped up and studied their bible. Bravo. =)
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists. Books by Rook Hawkins (Thomas Verenna)
Well, other people helped with my list too. Speaking of which, does anyone else have any additions?
Edit: Hm, Susan listed some verses. I should check those out too!
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
I would suggest you pick up a copy of Dennis McKinsey's "Biblical Errancy: A Reference Guide" and "The Encyclopedia of Biblical Errancy". Probably the only authorities you'll ever need on contradictions.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists. Books by Rook Hawkins (Thomas Verenna)