Lucifer - a fallen angel??
Offline After hearing Rook mention that the orgin of the 'Satan was a fallen angel' story had originated from the Qu'ran (correct me if I'm wrong in hearing that throught the RRS chat...) I decided to ask my crazy extremeist theist co-worker about it - this way she could try and supply me with a passge in the Bible that says 'Satan was a fallen angel'. So she supplied me with the following:
Isaiah 14:12 - How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, who laid the nations low!
She also mentioned that Lucifer comes from the Latin term meaning 'Light-bearer'.
Does anyone have a good explanation for this particular passage? Because quite frankly it confused me (but that's what I get for starting to read in the middle of a book). I read through chapter 14 once over my lunch break, but my brain couldn't process it with the lack of 'food'. Hmmm.... comments?
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The book of Isaiah was written well before the Quran was. Remember Judism was practiced before Islam so...yea.
As far as the passage and the idea that Satan was a fallen angel, most Christians do not quite understand the true meaning of what Satan is in the bible. First, his name is NOT Lucifer. This is a mistranslation when the bible was originally rewritten in Latin (from Greek/Hewbrew/Arameic). The passage, "Oh Day Star" or "Oh Morning Star" was translated incorrectly to Latin to say "Oh Lucifer, Son of the Morning". Lucifer, or in Hewbew is helel (or heylel). In its original meaning, it was referring to the King of Babylon, NOT Satan (ref: http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2215).
The only other reference to "morning star" is in Revelation, where it refers to Jesus, not Satan.
Oh, and the idea of a fallen angel was mostly because of this bad translation issue and I believe Dante cementing it in Paradise Lost. Satan was Satan from the begining of time.
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
What??
Satan always existed? He wasn't created?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
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haha nice try. Satan's origins are not exactly known but he was obviously created if you are to accept that God is the creator since God was before anything else. Scholars state that in the Book of Ezekiel is where his fall from heaven is written about (Ezekiel 28:12-20).
You can see most of the other research on various sites including this one: http://www.ibc-giessen.org/Satan's%20Creation.htm
Remember though...his name is Satan NOT Lucifer.
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
OK... I think I get you. I wasn't trying anything. I've just never heard a theist say Satan always existed. If you meant that, I wanted to know how you were going to explain it, obviously.
So, if I understand you, God must have created Satan when god created time, so that Satan has existed since the beginning of time... but before that, there was only god.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Yes. By conclusion, since the serpent was there on Earth before Adam and Eve, Satan came before God created the Earth. I guess if you wanted to get super technicial about it, Genesis 1:1 would encompass it; "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", the heavens would include all the angels. And by going by the texts, God punished Satan because of his desire to be like God.
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
Ok. Thanks.
I actually have no desire to debate this with you. I just thought maybe there was a new theist argument I hadn't heard before.
Out of curiosity, have you ever read the story of Tiamat and Mardok? It's pretty interesting. You can find a condensed and pretty accurate story on Wikipedia. Marduk, by the way, was the main god of the Babalonians, so a lot of the Hebrews would have heard the story when they were in captivity.
Again, no point, and not looking for an argument. Just thought you might find it an interesting story.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I understand. I didn't really want to debate this either...though I find it funny when most Christians or thesists refer to Satan as Lucifer. Gotta break popular culture before you can fix that one though.
I'll check up on that story. Never heard of it until now actually. Thanks
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
Hmmm - do you have any idea where this particular passage may be?
Oh and ty ty for the info. ^_^
To what exactly? If you mean what scholars generally state about Satan's fall, its Ezekiel 28:12-20 and no where else.
Is that what you mean?
What is faith? Is it to believe that which is evident? No. It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, supreme, and intelligent being. This is no matter of faith, but of reason. - Voltaire
Yeah - Satan's fall is what I was looking for in particular. I just wasn't sure where all it was actually stated. So yes, ty ty. ^_^
welcome welcome
King James edition is even more blunt and direct:
14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Hopefully Rook will comment, but if I recall correctly, Isaiah is referring to a human king, not anything supernatural. The reference is to the king of Babylon - possibly Nebuchadrezzar
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
that's what I told her my friend....its all a mistranslation.
Yes, my response appears to mirror yours. Perhaps rook has more information regarding the history behind the chapter and the book.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'