What doctrine is not in the Bible?
Offline There are a number of beliefs from the church and the surrounding Christian culture that are taken for granted as Christian doctrine but are not actually in the Bible. Name as many as you can think of.
-The first pope was St Peter or St Paul
-The talking serpent in the garden of Eden is Satan. The fruit eaten was an apple
-The one given power over the world in Revelations 13 is the Antichrist
-Jesus states he is the son of God
-Jesus states he is God
-Jesus states he is a trinity of father/son/holy ghost
-The events in Revelations and the second coming are about the future hundreds or thousands of years after the time of Jesus, not during the active Roman empire during the time of Nero
-Angels, demons and Satan are as they appear in medieval/rennaisance paintings
-Christ was born December 25th and visited by three kings
-Heaven and Hell are an invisible dimension separate from Earth and the physical universe
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Offline I asked "lil shizzle" to show his/her cards and "Mr. Shizzle" answers me. What are these? Sock puppet accounts?
As Vastet pointed out, most of account in the article are not contemporary. The "Roman Sources" and "Antagonists of Christianity" references are all 2nd to 3rd century. Even Josephus was born after Jesus supposedly died. The article also claims that Christianity's popularity is evidence of a real Jesus, which is ridiculous.
To question the historicity of Jesus is like exactly like questioning the historicity of Alexander.
No one's make extraordinary claims about Alexander.
http://www.search.com/reference/Historical_Jesus
This site seems to be lifted from Wikipedia. Funny, you couldn't even answer my question correctly.
"The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted." - Robert E. Van Voorst, Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.
This, so far is the only thing that's seems reputable in the post. He wrote a book about the subject, so at least it looks like he might be worth reading. Note that I'm undecided about the historicity of Jesus, and I haven't studied as much. But somehow I doubt you've read this book, but only have quoted it from Wikipedia.
http://larrycorrell.brinkster.net/TheologicalDictionary/references.aspx?theword=historicity%20of%20Jesus
I've skimmed through this and I might look at it later. Doesn't look like there's a lot of reference to many other sources outside of the site or any scholarly works. But maybe I'm missing it.
How many times does this idea of Jesus never being born have to be refuted. Scholars have refuted this over and over.
Perhaps there's more room for debate than you realize? Perhaps there's newer evidence and scholarship that demands the question be raised?
You don't have to a Christian but you need to be reasonable.
Funny, I'm not a Christian because I strive to be reasonable.
The only people who do not believe in the historicity of Jesus are those that do not want to look at the facts.
False accusation.
Scholars laugh at those who say that the man Jesus never lived. You are in the very very small minority on this subject. Who are these laughing scholars, and what are their works? How far in the minority are we? Can you give us a figure?
Well these Scholars on these sites keep saying over and over that this idea of Jesus not being born has been refuted. And they all say that only a small minority of Scholars doubt that Jesus was born.
Yeah, saying things over and over makes it true, right? You didn't answer all my questions. How far in the minority are we? Can you give us a figure? Maybe your friend "lil shizzle" will. I won't hold my breath.
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Offline Mr Shizzle - "Lutherans still have infant baptisms and other Catholic traditions. they are a mix of Protestant and Catholic. The Baptist goal is to follow the Bible alone. But people are people and sometimes they sometimes hold on to traditions."
I would consider Lutherans a protestant group. I just used them and Baptists as 2 examples. Lutherans do say they follow the Bible alone. Martin Luther is famous for: Grace Alone, Faith Alone, Scripture Alone. I don't think it exists in practice though because they all have their own traditional ways of interpreting the Bible.
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Offline I asked "lil shizzle" to show his/her cards and "Mr. Shizzle" answers me. What are these? Sock puppet accounts?
I'm not them. Think he/she/it's parodying my screenname for some reason?
Matt Shizzle has been banned from the Rational Response Squad website. This event shall provide an atmosphere more conducive to social growth. - Majority of the mod team
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Offline MrRage wrote:I asked "lil shizzle" to show his/her cards and "Mr. Shizzle" answers me. What are these? Sock puppet accounts?I'm not them. Think he/she/it's parodying my screenname for some reason?
Perhaps they're trying to parody you, but whatever they're trying to do they're not doing it well. "Mr. Shizzle" appears to be banned. They can't even touch your > 2500 posts.
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Offline I started out on this site being serious and answer any questions I could, but I was not listen too and I was booted for showing errors in some of the arguments, which I do not think was fair. Then I got very immature and started just attacking which I should not have done. It was not the Christian thing to do. I am very sorry. I will not come back and post anymore. Some of my post were deleted, but I am Gump, lil shizzle, Mr. Shizzle, and questions. Whether you know it or not God loves you. I love you, eventhough I did not act like it and I am sorry. Matt, Mr. Rage, and Hamby I did enjoy talking with you all. Know this people are praying for you and love you. I ask of you this, I'm not sure if you have ever had any encounters with church, but I would challenge you to go to a bible believing church and just try it out. See what they say and what you think. Any church worth its salt will love you and will treat you with the upmost respect. Don't judge Christianity by Christians, judge it by Christ. We have failed missrebly. Just look at the fool I have made out of myself. THere are people who want to meet you and show you God's love. I pray that God reveals himself to you in a way that cannot be denied. So may God bless and I hope there are no hard feelings.
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Offline I am Gump, lil shizzle, Mr. Shizzle, and questions. Whether you know it or not God loves you.
You've made 4 accounts, after the first was banned the rules state you're not welcome here. You ventured onto "private property" and "stole" our bandwidth. You're a liar and a thief. And you want me to learn how you learned...
I would challenge you to go to a bible believing church and just try it out.
I think it's safe to say you also have signs of mental insanity. I spent the first 14 years of my life in and out of churches, and that was 14 too many. Youre moral foundation allows you to be a thief and a liar and receive forgiveness for it from a mythical being, my moral code makes me accountable to myself and others. I feel abundantly more moral than you, and I don't want to go to your church to learn your way of life... I've spent the last 15 years trying to unlearn it.
Good riddance.
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Offline Quote:I would challenge you to go to a bible believing church and just try it out.
I think it's safe to say you also have signs of mental insanity. I spent the first 14 years of my life in and out of churches, and that was 14 too many. Youre moral foundation allows you to be a thief and a liar and receive forgiveness for it from a mythical being, my moral code makes me accountable to myself and others. I feel abundantly more moral than you, and I don't want to go to your church to learn your way of life... I've spent the last 15 years trying to unlearn it.
Good riddance.
most of the people on this site, in fact, were bible-believing christians at one point. hell, i still go to a bible study with my christian friends, and manage to stay atheist. most christians just think we're atheists because we know nothing about religion.
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Offline Deluded said, "Communion, and the eating the bread as the body of Christ, and wine as the blood of christ"
Check out John 6:31-72, commonly called (among Catholics) the "Eucharistic Discourse". It's a bit long, so I'll quote portions and summarize instead of cutting and pasting the whole thing.
The Jews ask Jesus to give them a sign that they may believe, saying that Moses gave theri fathers manna in the desert to eat. Jesus tells them four times that he is the 'bread of life" and then tells them in verse 50 "This is the bread which cometh down from heaven: that if any man eat of it, he may not die."
And again in verse 52 "If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world."
And once again in verse 54 "Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you."
Verse 56 "For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed."
The rest of the passage goes on to say that this teaching was so difficult for many of the disciples that they stopped following him.
John concludes the discourse by implying that it was at this point that Judas became disillusioned with Jesus' teaching.
"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II
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Offline Hey all. I'm new here and don't kow how to make the cool lil gray boxes for quoting other posts that you all use, so please bear with me.
Technarch wrote:
There are a number of beliefs from the church and the surrounding Christian culture that are taken for granted as Christian doctrine but are not actually in the Bible. Name as many as you can think of.
-The first pope was St Peter or St Paul
Jesus tells Peter that he will head the Church on earth in Matt 16:18-19 "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
And in Luke 22:31-32 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded to have you (plural in the Greek), that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you (singular in the Greek) that your faith may not fail; and when yopu have turned again, strengthen your brethren."
In John 21:15-17 Jesus asks three times for Peter to confirm his love for the Lord, aand after each profession of love, tells Peter to "feed my lambs", "tend my flock", "feed my sheep".
In Acts 2:14-42 Peter takes the lead in preaching and baptizing new believers on Pentecost.
In Acts 10:45-48 Peter "commanded" the other Apostles and disciples to baptize in the name of Jesus Christ.
Other indicators:
Peter is the only Apostle whose name is changed and whose new name is used in place of the old. Throughout salvation history, this is an indicator of a change in the status of the person, eg Abram becomes Abraham, Sarai becomes Sarah, Jacob becomes Israel.
Peter is chosen by Jesus to be near or with him on several auspicious occassions, the Transfiguration, the Agony in the Garden, the Trial before the High Priest.
When the Apostles are named as a group, Peter's name is usually listed first, an ancient literary indicator of respect and primacy.
The office of the Papacy is prefigured well in Isaiah 22:20-23, if anyone's interested in looking at an OT prophecy.
"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II
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Offline Hey all. I'm new here and don't kow how to make the cool lil gray boxes for quoting other posts that you all use, so please bear with me.
Hi totus_tuus. Yeah, sometimes there's a bit of a learning curve with stuff like this.
If you want to do one of the "cool lil gray boxes", instead of clicking on "reply" or "add a comment", click on "quote" at the bottom of the post you wish to quote. The quoting will all be laid out for you in the text edit box.
It's very much like HTML. Be sure you have an open tag (I'm adding extra spaces so the quote function doesn't kick in)
[ quote = person's name] text text text
and to end the quote you will see
[ / quote ]
If that doesn't make sense, PM me and I'll try to do better. 
By the way, using the text editor on this site works much better with FireFox than it does with other browsers.
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Offline totus_tuus wrote:Hey all. I'm new here and don't kow how to make the cool lil gray boxes for quoting other posts that you all use, so please bear with me.
Hi totus_tuus. Yeah, sometimes there's a bit of a learning curve with stuff like this.
If you want to do one of the "cool lil gray boxes", instead of clicking on "reply" or "add a comment", click on "quote" at the bottom of the post you wish to quote. The quoting will all be laid out for you in the text edit box.
It's very much like HTML. Be sure you have an open tag (I'm adding extra spaces so the quote function doesn't kick in)
[ quote = person's name] text text text
and to end the quote you will see
[ / quote ]
If that doesn't make sense, PM me and I'll try to do better.
By the way, using the text editor on this site works much better with FireFox than it does with other browsers.
Like that? Thanks, Susan.
"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II
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Offline There's nothing I'm aware of in the bible about abortion.
Technically, there is.
Exodus 21:22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she has a miscarriage but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
In other words, the unborn is not counted as human in the OT. If it was a person, the penalty would be death, not a fine.
Quote:-The one given power over the world in Revelations 13 is the Antichrist-where is this book of revelations you speak of?
Quote:-Jesus states he is the son of GodJohn the baptist did, as well as the disciples. it is in God's word, so doesnt that mean that God said it too?
Quote:-Jesus states he is Godbah, let's see...jesus claimed to be able to forgive sins. jesus said that if his disciples didnt worship him, the rocks would. jesus called himself the "son of man," fulfilling old testament prophecy that was easilly understood by the jews. jesus said "the father and i are one, if you have seen me you have also seen the father. im sure there are more, but four is three more than enough.
In the old testament, "son of man" meant "son of Adam" which really meant anyone male who is descended from Adam. If Adam is the first man, I'm a son of Adam. As for the rest...Priests also claim to be able to forgive sins, and anyone can forgive sins that were committed against them. Rocks didn't worship Jesus, and people worshipping someone doesn't make them divine. Hindus believe that all things are one, united through Brahma, and it's not a large stretch to belive Jesus was talking about such a unity.
Quote:-Angels, demons and Satan are as they appear in medieval/rennaisance paintings-wow, just wow.
Quote:-Christ was born December 25th and visited by three kingsagain, i didnt know this was christian doctrine, i feel like im losing my faith!
John 10:31-33
30 "I and the Father are one."
31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
Jesus does claim to be God.
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Offline Let me address the claim that Heaven and Hell be separate places from the physical earth not being shown in the Bible. The best declaration of this doctrine in the Scriptures is the story of Lazarus, the beggar and the rich man related in Luke 16:19-31. I believe that this teaching is an anecdote, rather than a story, something which Jesus knew to have actually happened, since it is the only parable where Jesus names the characters involved.
v22-24 "The poor man (Lazarus) died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom . The rich man also dided and was buried; and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham for off and Lazarus in his bosom. And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy upon me and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.'"
So Lazarus, while not yet in "heaven" is resting in Abraham's bosom with the knowledge of his eventual entry into the Church Triumphant, while the rich man is in Hades. Abraham goes onto to explain that the rich man had his reward on earth, while on earth Lazarus suffered with no relief from the rich man who was well aware of his suffering. Abraham explains firthewr in verse 26 "'And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.'" This shows us that these are indeed quite separate places.
Lazarus then begs Abraham to send Lazarus into the world to warn his brothers to repent, so that they would not have to suffer in the afterlife. The Gospel says "'...They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them...'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'" (v30-31)
"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II
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Offline John 10:31-33
30 "I and the Father are one."31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
The "Jesus never says he is God" claim comes from some Muslim arguments, which are correct in that Jesus never says "I am God" directly, while most of the time other characters in the Bible speak of Jesus' divinity or claims (other people say Jesus says he's divine, and other people say Jesus is divine, but Jesus never says it himself).
He does say it indirectly by saying he is equal to God the father, which is why Christians have interpreted this to mean they are the same person. This is the closest it gets to Jesus saying he is God, but why does it seem like he's referring to his father as a separate being? He never really explains what it means to be equal to his father, whether it means being of an equal level of authority but separate, or exactly equal and the same being. Different Christian sects have different interpretations, where Jesus and God are seperate entities, Jesus and God are the same being, or Jesus and God are separate and together at the same time, or Jesus is a prophetic teacher acting as a gateway to God, Jesus is an avatar using God's power. Jesus is comparing himself to the father as if separate, and also stating he is equal as if joined, leaving open the exact nature of this relationship. Jesus makes statements about being equal to God but never describes how or what he means exactly, so we're left to assume he means he is God, and then believe that's exactly what he meant rather than speaking philosophically or allegorically. It's more interpretive than "I am God."
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I have never seen it referenced earlier than the time of Jesus but I could be werong.
Here:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/reciproc.htm
Very nice. Not exactly the same quote but the same meaning no doubt. It is not a very profound statement but at the same time very profound. Meaning it sounds like a no brainer but if it was why did someone have to say it.
Maybe because even with it being said people often don't follow it.
Actually, he did, but he stole it from Confucious and others.
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what do you mean by this?
what is the problem here?
only if you take paul way out of context, he is saying that if you think the law will justify you then christ is of no value to you.
thanks for the consideration.
Actually, this is false. There are no contemporary historical accounts of jesus, even though we'd expect that there would be:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/a_silence_that_screams
And this total lack of any record of any contemporary evidence for jesus calls the gospel 'accounts' into question due to a lack of any provenance from the time of their appearance, back to the purported time of 'jesus'
This provenance problem is just one serious problem with the jesus claim. The second serious problem is that the gospels are both anonymous,
http://www.rationalresponders.com/the_gospels_are_anonymous_works_and_none_are_eyewitness_accounts
and, even worse, clearly based on midrash of the OT
http://www.rationalresponders.com/the_gospels_are_midrash
When you consider that the book of Mark is clearly Midrash, and that Luke and Matthew (neither of which are considered eyewitness accounts even by many major biblical scholars... (heck, even CARM concedes that)) and that the book of John is clearly a second century document, the claims for a real jesus fall to pieces.
I can only read this statement in the vein of ironic humor.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
It doesn't really talk about freewill.
There's really no freewill in the Bible. If God is all-knowing, all-powerful, then how can we have freewill?
It's like watching the same movie 100 times and when you see it for the 101th time, you will already know what's going to happen before it happens. To expect the actors/actresses in the movie to do something different and have freewill would be ridiculous.
It was sascarm. But ok.
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It's beyond me why noone has completely annihlated this attempted refutation.
Enlightened Atheist, Gaming God.
What about Gumps webiste to the wikipedia. Where even they say that only a few believe the man Jesus did not live. Plus the other part where it says it has been EFFECTIVELY REFUTED
Well who in the Heck is Carm. Clearly John is not a second century Document. Once again making up crap does not prove your point. Scholars laugh at those who say that the man Jesus never lived. You are in the very very small minority on this subject.
Matt already answered this. Wikipedia can be edited by anyone. Please provide scholarly references to back up the "effectively refuted" claim.
Google is your friend.
Care to give use evidence that John's gospel is from the 1st century? How was todangst "making up crap"? Who are these laughing scholars, and what are their works? How far in the minority are we? Can you give us a figure?
One thing to keep in mind is a difference between Catholics and Protestants. Catholic beliefs come from the Bible and their tradition, while most Protestants claim the Bible alone is the sole authority. That gives protestants a hard time, I think, because they intrepret the bible according to which tradition they come from. There's a reason why most Baptists interpret the Bible in a certain way, and most Lutherans interpret it another way.
Iruka, or anyone else who knows...
I claimed Jesus never spoke the golden rule in the bible, and I can't find it (granted, my search was not exhaustive, just exhausting.) Iruka said he did... maybe I'm wrong? Can someone tell me where it is?
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I did on the last page its Mathew 7:12
Thanks, Colby. I stand corrected.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
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Hamby no problem and I like your sig, you they say curiosity killed the cat.
Colby, you're the first person, theist or atheist on this board to ever catch the joke.
I wish I could give you a prize for it.
They do say curiosity killed the cat... but my cat has a gun
There's probably at least a college level paper in the irony... or maybe I'm just sitting like the cat who ate the canary.
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John 10:31-33
30 "I and the Father are one."
31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"
33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
Jesus does claim to be God.
http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/the_historicity_of_jesus_christ
To question the historicity of Jesus is like exactly like questioning the historicity of Alexander.
http://www.search.com/reference/Historical_Jesus
^ "The nonhistoricity thesis has always been controversial, and it has consistently failed to convince scholars of many disciplines and religious creeds. ... Biblical scholars and classical historians now regard it as effectively refuted." - Robert E. Van Voorst, Jesus Outside the New Testament: An Introduction to the Ancient Evidence (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2000), p. 16.
http://larrycorrell.brinkster.net/TheologicalDictionary/references.aspx?theword=historicity%20of%20Jesus
How many times does this idea of Jesus never being born have to be refuted. Scholars have refuted this over and over. You don't have to a Christian but you need to be reasonable. The only people who do not believe in the historicity of Jesus are those that do not want to look at the facts.
Well these Scholars on these sites keep saying over and over that this idea of Jesus not being born has been refuted. And they all say that only a small minority of Scholars doubt that Jesus was born.
This is the same dumbass who was banned before. Somebody IP ban again.
Lutherans still have infant baptisms and other Catholic traditions. they are a mix of Protestant and Catholic. The Baptist goal is to follow the Bible alone. But people are people and sometimes they sometimes hold on to traditions.
This is the same dumbass who was banned before. Somebody IP ban again.
Well these Scholars on these sites keep saying over and over that this idea of Jesus not being born has been refuted. And they all say that only a small minority of Scholars doubt that Jesus was born.
Not one single contemporary account within. Jesus is a myth. Perhaps you should do some reading.
http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/rook_hawkins/the_jesus_mythicist_campaign/2901
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