Merciful and Just
Posted on: May 1, 2007 - 8:06am
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Merciful and Just
I can't help but notice that many of the lists of Bible eroors here contain citations opposing a "mean" God to a merciful God. Is it not possible that a just judge can also be merciful?
"With its enduring appeal to the search for truth, philosophy has the great responsibility of forming thought and culture; and now it must strive resolutely to recover its original vocation." Pope John Paul II
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Plain and simple, how is infinite punishment for finite crimes merciful? A lie unrepented will get you the same punishment as child raping as murder as cursing as lust as coveting....
Sorry, thats not merciful from my world view.
How about an evil God? It is ludicrous that God presumes the right to punish us for anything, since he is 100% responsible for everything that has ever happened.
Lazy is a word we use when someone isn't doing what we want them to do.
- Dr. Joy Brown
just1
/
dʒʌst/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[
juhst] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective
{edited for length, most of the rest dealt with time}
mer·cy
/ˈmɜr
si/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mur-see] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun, plural -cies for 4, 5.
{emphasis mine in both entries}
So to answer your question it is impossible to be both just and merciful at the same time. Due in no small fact that one requires a deserved punishment to be meted out and the other requires that that same deserved punishment not be meted out. It cannot be so....One of several logical fallacies of god...
No Gods, Know Peace.
There's no comparability with a human who decides cases in a court of law and something referred to as a god.
The justness of a judge is in meting out appropriate punishment for breaking laws that a committee of people formulated to promote civil order; a god, on the other hand, is supernatural, incomprehensible, non-evidential, and obviously nonhuman and most assuredly, nonexistent. The laws of a god are wholly imagined by theologians.
People who think there is something they refer to as god don't ask enough questions.
totus, it's a great question, but the answer is worse than you would have guessed!
As you can see, mercy and justice are mutually exclusive, i.e. it is impossible to be both. Since the bible, and Christians for 1700 years have averred that only those who accept Jesus will go to heaven, and everyone who rejects him will go to hell, you are faced with two choices:
1) God is UN-merciful
2) There are other ways to go to heaven besides believing in Jesus.
If (1) then god, or the bible, lied or erred.
If either of these is true, then the bible is untrustworthy, and you should not believe it without empirical verification of its accuracy.
If (2), then Jesus lied or erred.
If Jesus lied, then nothing that the bible says is trustworthy, and you should not believe any of it without verification.
Since science and the bible are at odds on most issues, and there is no empirical evidence that any of the "miracles" in the bible actually happened, the only rational thing to do is disbelieve the bible.
Sorry, kiddo, but that question you asked should, by all rights, turn you into a non-Christian at the least, and an atheist at the most.
Welcome to the ranks of the non-believers!
(Or... is there some rational reason for you to keep believing? Maybe you'll just keep believing anyway? Would that be irrational, perhaps?)
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
(Exit Atheist Rambo-Kitty)
(Enter Theist Chuck Norris-Kitty)
But, Rambo-kitty, you're not taking into account all the possibilities. Your formula assumes that the only thing for god to be merciful with is whether or not you go to hell or heaven. Maybe he's merciful with us on earth, but ultimately, the judgement of where we spend eternity is just.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
(Rambo Kitty kicks Chuck Norris Kitty in the Kitty-Nuts)
Chuck, on the surface, that sounds convincing, but lets examine something here. What does it mean to be merciful on earth? What punishment does god forestall on earth that could possibly be worse than eternal flame throwers? According to theists, hell is a place of unthinkable torture. If that's so, than ANY and ALL existence on earth is better than hell.
So, you will say, allowing us to exist on earth for any length of time is a merciful act, because it spares us from hell for that much longer. Therefore, god is merciful and just!
But, you are wrong, because god created hell, and created people, and then decided to send people to hell. This conclusion is unavoidable! If god created hell and didn't decide to send people to hell, then people are in hell contrary to god's design, which is impossible for an omniscient being. No amount of hedging or equivocation can erase this fact.
With this unavoidable conclusion, we can see that there is no real mercy here. What, with tsunamis and cancer and liver failure and Downs Syndrome and MS and Lou Gherig's disease and Hurricane Katrina and Mount Vesuvius and Mount St. Helen and black widows that bite babies and killer hornets in Japan and jellyfish the size of your thumb that send you into screaming agony for days by their mere touch and Great White Sharks and how much it hurts when a baby is born and incontinence and mad cow disease and babies born attached at the hip or without their spines fully formed and food poisoning and appendix, which serve no purpose but to occasionally burst and kill us, and bad eyesight and being born with a thyroid problem so that you will be grossly obese your entire life and nobody will want to be your spouse, and fucking Windows XP, and global warming, and having your legs blown off because you believed the asshole who got elected president because he shouted the name of Jesus from time to time...
No, I don't think there's any mercy in allowing us to live here before sending us to the torture chamber.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Actually eternal torture is neither merciful or just for any concievable crime or series of crimes.
I also recognize the bible is full of errors. The bible was written, translated, and edited by man. How can I believe without a doubt in something that is written by flawed individuals? That doesn't make sense, even to me. It is interesting and has some good points, but it is not what I live my life by. Hell at least 50% of it cannot possibly apply to me life today... Unless I pull a Walden, then maybe...
Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots.
Totus, are trolling?
Are you going to respond to anything posted?
I thought all that was required to end this thread was the definitions....
No Gods, Know Peace.
It certainly was, but I would like to see the poster respond to the members who took time to formulate comments.
Wishkah, I hope you'll forgive me for picking on you a little bit, but this response is similar to your response in another thread that I just responded to.
If the bible has errors, and was written by men, and clearly has good, bad, and non-applicable points, doesn't that mean that everything in it is subject to question?
If everything is subject to question, then why are you content with believing in god "just because"? What makes you pick out the "God Exists" part of the bible (or ANY holy text, for that matter) and exclude it from critical thinking? (which requires no equations, thankfully.)
You said in your other post that it is hard for you to believe he doesn't exist, but that's hardly proof that he exists, is it? It's hard for a lot of children to believe that their daddy doesn't love them, but the fact is, daddy ran away when the child was conceived and didn't bother to send a happy birthday note once in fifteen years. Evidence? Daddy doesn't love his child. Belief? Somehow, daddy still loves me.
Which do you think is healthier for this kid? To obsess over dad for her whole life, or to just accept the tough reality that her dad wasn't interested in having a kid...
The cool thing about not believing in a god is there's nothing inherently tough about it. You just don't believe in magic, and that's it! Yeah, it's kind of nasty when the president says something to the effect that you ought not even have American citizenship if you don't believe in god...
You know King Bush The First said that, right?
Anyway, I digress.
So, my question to you...
If you 1) Don't believe the bible is accurate
2) Don't adhere to its moral principles, except for when they already happen to be what you believe anyway
3) Don't believe the literal creation account, or the flood...
4) Don't know if the god of the bible is the right one... maybe it's Allah, or something else...
and
5) Don't think that the whole idea of heaven and hell is exactly correct...
Then, why haven't you taken that one last step and asked yourself if there's really any evidence that a god exists?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
No Gods, Know Peace.
It makes us all masochists. LOL
God hasn’t changed, just our perception of him.
The stereotype of a God capable of wrath and judgment does appear in the New Testament but is more predominant in the Old Testament. God of mercy and loving kindness will show up in the Old Testament but is predominant in the New Testament.
Apparent contradictions about God in the Bible are hard to comprehend, maybe. I see the scripture as the proof of human pondering about God. The belief and understanding of God could also be “beliefs based on theories in progress.” The human view of God remains incomplete and evolving.
Yes I used the “E” word.
Can a God be just and merciful? I think..yup.
He is merciful if you ask and just if you don’t.
No one should complain to God or about God for their choices. A loving and just God would hold us accountable to the consequences of our actions and choices.
Just as my mother would
...but not for an infinite amount of time for finite infractions, that is where the injustice lies.
Uh oh...
Time for Rambo Kitty...
Uh huh... and coincidentally, our (meaning Christians) perceptions of him just happen to have changed right in step with advances in science and philosophy... and coincidentally, each god in the pantheon (Allah, Jehovah, Jesus, Kali, Zeus, Marduk...) happens to be a pretty good mirror of the society that worships him (or her). Funny that the ancient Hebrews worshipped a warlike god, and they were a warlike, nomadic people... then, when the Romans jumped in and told them to cut that shit out, suddenly, they worshipped a hippie who was all about turning the other cheek... Seems like the critical eye would notice that men invent their own gods to suit their own cultures.
Yeah, I just addressed that. It's evidence that man invents god in his image, not the other way around. I know it's tough to see when you believe in magic.
Damn easy to comprehend. Check this out: "They're contradictions." Done. Comprehension complete.
NEWS FLASH!!! FOX NEWS MAGENTA ALERT!!!! ALERT!!!! In breaking news, humans ponder the existence of God!!!!!
Brilliant.
Um... do you mean to say that throughout history, people have updated their theories about god because science keeps proving the old ones wrong? I agree.
Incomplete because if anyone offers a complete definition, he creates an internal contradiction and proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the defined god does not exist.
Evolving because despite the church's best efforts, scientists continue to make discoveries, and theists refuse to let go of the god-concept.
I won't tell Ray Comfort.
Thank you for that eloquent and well defended thesis. I don't see how this has eluded scientists for so long.
horse-hockey.
If you believe in him, then the story goes that you get justice -- that is, you go to heaven as your reward for picking him out of the big jumble of available gods. If you don't believe in him, or believe in the wrong god, you go to hell. That could be considered justice if you could find some way to justify setting up such a stupid and arbitrary reason for eternal torment versus punishment, but it would never be mercy, because mercy is letting someone off the hook when they screwed up. To be merciful, god would have to let an unbeliever into heaven.
Read a dictionary, for crying out loud.
How come you don't get this? Atheists don't complain to god, the tooth fairy, or Elvis! (Well, maybe Elvis, sometimes.) How do you complain to something you don't believe in? If you already believe in god, what's to complain about? You get to kiss god's ass for eternity when you die.
That's correct. However, belief is not a choice. You can't help believing that you wear shoes from time to time. No matter how much you try to convince yourself that you never wear shoes, every time you have shoes on, the evidence prevents you from believing something different. So, god punishing people for not believing is not just and loving. It's cruel and sadistic. If you think I can just choose to believe that god exists, you believe in the tooth fairy first. When you can say with 100% certainty that the tooth fairy exists, you'll have proved that belief is a choice. Until then, can the malarky about choices.
Your mother wouldn't kill you for disobeying her instructions to not play in the road. That would be stupid, because then you couldn't learn from your mistakes. Sending people to hell is not punishment, it's retribution. It serves no purpose other than to get god's rocks off, since there is no hope of mending your ways once you're in the torture chamber.
If your mother would kill you for that, I'm sorry. She's a shit head.
(Retract Claws)
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Ok, scroll up the thread to where I defined Mercy and Just....and by the way if you talking about just and mercy don't switch and start talking about just and loving.....that's just plain topic switching....
No Gods, Know Peace.
Hambydammit, I thought I loved you before, but now I know it!
Wait! Maybe it's Rambo Kitty I should be mooning over!
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server.
BGH – You don’t know my mother. She is still mad about catching me in the garage with a girl friend when I was in High school.
Damn Hambydammit, next time just pick it apart one word at a time. It makes you sound like an Ex -Baptist preacher.
Hambydammit Quote:I
t's evidence that man invents god in his image, “perceptions of him just happen to have changed right in step with advances in science and philosophy... and coincidentally, each god in the pantheon (Allah, Jehovah, Jesus, Kali, Zeus, Marduk...) happens to be a pretty good mirror of the society that worships him (or her).”Hambydammit Quote:It's evidence that man invents god in his image I think you just proved my point. A critical eye has notice that men (see) their own gods to suit their own cultures.That is the downfall of man and the attempt to place God in a defined box, this is not God’s doing. But notice how they have always searched for a God.
Hambydammit Quote:NEWS FLASH!!! FOX NEWS MAGENTA ALERT!!!! ALERT!!!! In breaking news, humans ponder the existence of God!!!!!Thanks for agreeing.
Hambydammit Quote:Damn easy to comprehend. Check this out: "They're contradictions." Done. Comprehension complete.I don’t see where I disagreed on this point.I simply pointed out the writers change in the perception of God. I thought that was what this thread was initially about?Hambydammit Quote:Um... do you mean to say that throughout history, people have updated their theories about god because science keeps proving the old ones wrong? I agreeUm...yup!
Me Quote:The human view of God remains incomplete
Hambydammit Quote:Incomplete because if anyone offers a complete definition, he creates an internal contradiction and proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the defined god does not exist.I personally haven’t seen a complete view of God. I have never seen a complete scientific view of the world around us either. I hope the latter never happens, it would put me out of a job.
Hambydammit Quote:
If you believe in him, then the story goes that you get justice -- that is, you go to heaven as your reward for picking him out of the big jumble of available gods.Actually that is not the way the story goes. But that is a different topic.
Hambydammit Quote:Atheists don't complain to god, the tooth fairy, or Elvis! (Well, maybe Elvis, sometimes.) How do you complain to something you don't believe in?No one should complain to God or about God for their choices.I specifically put the word about in on purpose. I read a lot of complaints about God’s
Interesting that you didn't feel inclined to deal with this paragraph:
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I didn't answer this simply because I don't understand the shoe metaphor. Believing or not believing doesn't prove God is or isn't.
Belief or no belief is a choice. My beliefs are based on study and not from some self elightened person saying they know the right path.
God will not punish you for not believing. We will be punished for not following our beliefs. If your statement were true no one would make it. Not believing or questioning ones faith is a big part of believing in God. I do not believe in blind faith but I do believe you only find what you are looking for. I personally think, The diversities we see in todays religions is simply people trying to find an easier way out or in.
I do believe in the tooth fairy! My persption of her changed when I found out it was my dad. The true reality is that the quarter was still under my pillor and it was still placed by te tooth fairy.
Very well. Then you can still believe in god. Your perception of her just has to change when you found out it's just a fairy tale. The true reality is that quarters (as well as fives, tens, twenties and more) are still going into the collection basket, and getting banked by someone who claims to speak for god.
There are no theists on operating tables.
Reality depends on perception.
The argument for or against God is not a definite study. It can be broken down to statistical analysis and relativity. Banking on the odds I go with a God simply because there ae still too many holes in science that don't add up. Fairy tale or not... I see the statistics and probability in my favor. If I am wrong than nothing lost. Besides, people in fairy tales live happily ever after.
As far as the money in the basket... I don't give to people who speak for God. There are too many people willing to use fools to make a buck. The idea that religion is about money is a poor argument against any belief system. I see a request for money here but I don't think that makes this a bogus sight.
Are you a monist?
Statistical analysis of what? Relativity? god can be broken down to Energy and Mass?
To the mods: Can you provide a filter to catch common fallacies like this from now on? I mean, really. I won't even dignify it by giving its name.
To mjolnin: Care to give the precise values of your "probabilities"?
So do people on morphine. And can't we make the fairy tale a little happier? Take out the threat of eternal damnation, less blood and anger, more sex and candy?
And too many fools willing to pay someone to feed them fairy tales which make them "live happily ever after".
I made a reference to money simply to stay parrallel to your fallacious tooth fairy argument. Nonetheless, I'll stop saying religion is about money as soon as churches stop asking for it. Frankly, if a church believes in a supernatural being, they shouldn't need money to pay their operating costs - god should be able to provide the means for that. Any church that relies on the material contributions of its members is second-guessing the supernatural powers of the god it worships.
That is the distinction between churches and those who run this site, as they realize "the lord will not provide".
There are no theists on operating tables.
Awesome. Now I can demonstrate just how ludicrous your reasons for believing in god are. You don't understand the shoe metaphor, therefore believing is caused by the tooth fairy!
You get it, don't you?
Ok, I'll explain it for you. There are many holes in the explanation of the universe. True. So, you put god in the holes. You have no reason for doing this, other than the fact that it makes sense to you. There's no logical reason for it. In fact, if it was logical to do that, any time we didn't understand something, we could make up a magical reason for it happening. For instance, when you didn't understand my shoe metaphor, you might as well say that the tooth fairy causes people to believe or not believe something. It makes as much sense as plugging god into the universe because you don't understand it.
Now, on to belief...
Belief is not a choice, and your belief that it is has no bearing on the fact that it is not. To illustrate this point, lets take some of your beliefs and examine them.
*You believe that the earth is round, right? Demonstrate your ability to make a choice to believe whatever you want and start believing that the earth is flat. Do it. Right now. I'll wait.
(humming the Jeopardy theme song while I wait...)
Ok. So now you believe the earth is flat, right?
No?
Why not?
Evidence, you say? You have no reason to believe? But you said earlier that belief is a choice! Just choose to believe it, and don't pay attention to the evidence that the earth is round. There have been millions and millions of people throughout history who have believed the earth to be flat. Are you saying they were all wrong?
But we've advanced since then, you say? We can see with satellites that the earth is actually round?
Ok, well, what if reality is not what we perceive it to be. What if the earth is just an illusion created by aliens to keep our focus away from the fact that we are actually three headed globgobbits from the planet Flarb and we are in a slave labor camp making camphorblibbits for the Flarbians so that they can continue cutting down rainforests in Bali.
You can't prove that isn't the reality, so why not just believe it. On the planet Flarb, the earth is flat. I've just given you a perfectly reasonable justification for believing. Now.... believe.
(Humming theme song from Magnum PI while waiting)
Now you believe the earth is flat, right?
No? Why not? I thought belief was a choice.
Ok... admittedly there isn't a lot of evidence for the existence of Flarb, is there... ok... how about this... the multiverse! You've heard of that before, right? So, the multiverse exists, and we live in a universe where everything that appears to be round is actually flat. In theory, there are an infinite number of universes, so that kind of universe HAS to exist, and you have no good reason for believing that this isn't that universe, so it actually makes sense to believe that the earth, along with your old autographed baseball from Hal Newhauser, is flat.
Now.... believe.
(Humming Brady Bunch Theme)
Ok. That was a perfectly good explanation. Why don't you believe? You told me belief is a choice. I want you to demonstrate it for me.
Or... maybe you can't believe because no matter how much you might want to, it just doesn't make sense to you that the earth is flat. The evidence doesn't add up, and all the attempts to justify belief in a flat earth are kind of silly sounding, or so far fetched that you can't give them any real consideration.
Anyway, how about this... since we're not talking about the earth, we're talking about god, and you might be tempted to say belief is a special case... how about if you decide not to believe in god for ten minutes. Do it inside, and make sure there are no knives or guns nearby so that you don't accidentally die in the ten minutes. After ten minutes, decide to believe in god again. Prove to yourself that belief is a choice.
If you can't do that, stop harping on and on about how belief is a choice. It's not, and your religion is a crock because your god doesn't even seem to know that.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
No I haven't bought into it the one substance one being thing. Although it is pretty interesting and it can't be ruled out. I don't have to agree to make it true.
Sciencentific analysis and statistical analysis of anything having all the answers. I can not put God and science into the same equation and really don't like to.
God can not be broken into mass and energy. That would prove his existance.
"If I am wrong than nothing lost" is not the argument. The argument is that I don't see all the answers. If you have them please let me know.
I like the idea of more sex and candy. I don't have a problem with eternal damnation when it is easily eliminated.
I think the blood and anger makes for a better read. Remember, the church was not built on the Bible.
This is something I believe Religiously.
sorry but I couldn't help the pun.
Belief in a God does not take anyone out of the physical world, that would be the morphine fairy tale people. It does not allow me to break any laws of physics althouugh that would be really cool. This is pushing things farther out than I can grasp when on morphine.
Something has to plug the holes or everything would leak out.
Reality check: God doesn't plug the holes in the universe.
Why the need to push things beyond rediculous? It is a poor argument tactic.
I find this as a poor analogy. I don't understand how one incorrect belief nullifies all beliefs good or bad?
I enjoyed your story, excpecially the background music. i hope you don't mind if I don't copy it all. I would rather get down to the jist.
Beliefs are a choise. Believing or ignoring fact is also a choise. Belief in a God or not believing is a choise. Believing in the planet Farb is a statistical probability. Which does not prove or disprove the the fact that we are actually three headed globgobbits.
If no belief is a choise than no one has free will. We are all acting out a play that was all ready written and we all have to hope that we are from the planet Farb because it would really work in our favor if we were. Let us all hope (those who wish can pray) that this is a comidy play because I am not really upto a bad ending.
POINT OF ENLIGHTENMENT... the bulb flashes
I understand why the need to push to the obsurd. It really is fun.
Been there and done that for quite a while. My belief is a choise and I wasn't struck by ligtning or any other earthshaking shit to bring me to were I am today, nor will I say that I will not go back. I will say that where we go is our choise because free will is a belief I choose.
And you said my analogies were bad. You gotta do some work on making valid analogies and recognizing them when you see them.
Are you being funny or dense?
It's a wonderful argument tactic with a long and glorious history. And you haven't managed to refute my argument, so it must be pretty decent.
From Wikipedia:
Reductio ad absurdum (Latin: "reduction to the absurd"
also known as an apagogical argument, reductio ad impossibile, or proof by contradiction, is a type of logical argument where one assumes a claim for the sake of argument, derives an absurd or ridiculous outcome, and then concludes that the original assumption must have been wrong as it led to an absurd result. It makes use of the law of non-contradiction - a statement cannot be both true and false. In some cases it may also make use of the law of excluded middle - a statement must be either true or false. The phrase is traceable back to the Greek η εις άτοπον απαγωγή (hê eis átopon apagogê), meaning "reduction to the impossible", often used by Aristotle.
It's a good thing I'm here to help you. It wasn't an analogy at all. An analogy takes the form A is to B as C is to D.
My statement, "Belief is not a choice, and your belief that it is has no bearing on the fact that it is not," takes the form A and B. Not an analogy at all. In fact, it doesn't have anything to do with incorrect beliefs nullifying all beliefs. Your reading comprehension could use some brushing up.
Thanks. And thanks for not copying it all. I'm pretty familiar with it, being the author and all.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
That's your rebuttal? Just restating the premise that I just soundly defeated?
No, kiddo. You don't understand much about human psychology, but it's ok. That's why I'm here. When we say, "Suzy is just ignoring the facts. She should just break up with that loser Bjorn and go out with me instead," Suzy is not, in fact, ignoring the facts. She's taking all of the information into consideration, and doing what she believes is best. She's interpreting the facts in a way that seems illogical to the outside observer. If ignoring facts is a choice, then you can choose to believe the earth is flat. You still haven't refuted this argument, nor can you, because you simply don't understand human cognition well enough. Not your fault, but you could remedy the situation by spending a few days camped in the science section of the public library.
No, it's not. There could be a statistical probability that the planet Flarb exists if some theorist took the time to work it out, but the probability is not a belief. You believe it or not, to some degree or another. In other words, you might be reasonably sure it exists, but have doubts. You might have the tiniest speck of hope that it exists, but for the most part, you are sure it doesn't. There is almost nothing that we are mathematically 100% certain of, but in practice, many things are so obvious to us that we say we're certain.
Nope. But you still either believe it or not, and you don't have a choice in the matter.
In logic, we call this a non-sequitur.
In fact, you are on the right track, though. You're just taking the argument too far. From a certain point of view, it can be said that every "choice" we make is predetermined by the data in our brains. Humans always choose what they think is the best choice, so if we could analyze every single bit of data in a brain, in theory we could predict every choice a person would make, and free will would be something of an oxymoron. I understand why you're getting hung up on this. You start by believing in god, then you have to make all the facts fit that model. Since belief and choice are not related, but the bible says they are, you have to do some impressive mental gymnastics to reconcile the cognitive dissonance. This is why the scientific method is better. You start with no pre-conceptions and form your theory based on how the evidence fits together.
Well, I suppose it can be. But it's still a valid argument, and you still haven't refuted it.
I don't know how else to say this. No, belief is not a choice. You did not choose to disbelieve in god if you really didn't believe. One day, the evidence in your brain just didn't add up to the existence of god, and you didn't believe.
Now, where you may be getting hung up -- lots of people make this mistake -- is that you are talking about choosing to want to believe. If you believe that believing in god is a good thing, and that your life will be better if you do, you can begin thinking and acting as if you believe. It might be that you eventually convince yourself and then genuinely believe. When I was a theist, I did a lot of that. I couldn't make god-belief work, but I figured I was just missing something, so I kept going to church and praying and reading the bible -- acting as if I believed. The thing is, sometimes I did believe, and sometimes I didn't. I certainly couldn't control it, and neither can you.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
lightenup sometimes you have to have fun
It's a wonderful argument tactic with a long and glorious history.
It's a good thing I'm here to help you.
I do understand the psychology of Beliefs. It can be broken down into 5 psychological functions. What are really being discussed here are Knowledge function beliefs and attitudes. Those are the beliefs that help us make sense of the world. You beliefs cannot be based on a God because admittedly theology did not make sense to you. Therefore you are telling me you have no choice but to view the world how ever it makes sense to you.I don’t think we are using the social adjustment function. I think we are both capable of feeling part of society without changing our views. The syllogistic analysis, which I assume you are using, is useful to analyze underlying premise of beliefs but not their origin. I really don't believe in this theory . If you truly want to make a psychological examination of beliefs than an atheist who claims God does not exist is making a metaphysical assertion that is equivalent to a theist statement that God does exist. Before you go nuts... that is an argument from a Psychology course not another theist redundancy.To be honest I have a hard time grabbing hold of the idea that we are nothing more than a production of our surroundings. But you are right. Beliefs are a logical assumption made by a person based on predetermined data in our brains. I believe that a person finds what they are looking for and stops. The only people who are truly lost are the ones who stop looking.
If we have no real choice than why even try.