I love this idea. Obviously I don't agree with the spiritual enlightenment part, but I definitely think it is a very important part of history, as it has influenced much of our culture for millennia. As I've been reading the Gospel of John in Koine Greek, I've come across a number of lines that seem to translate very differently then the general accepted meaning. One of my favorite is the line:

"Και ο λογος σαρξ εγενετο και εσκηνωσεν εν ημιν," - John 1:14 (ya, I know, I didn't put in the accents, but I didn't bother as I could only put in one type, and I couldn't put in breathing marks or iota scripts either).

The way that the most seem to translate this is:

"And the word became flesh and dwelt AMONG us."

However, when I read it, it seems to translate as "And the word became flesh and dwelt IN us."

The key here is the word εν (en), while it can be translated as "among" it is normally translated as "in" (the way I do it), and indeed it is the way that the author of John seems to use everywhere else.

The significance of the two translations, is that the first one supports a more orthordox view of Jesus, while the way it seems to translate to me supports the view that the Gospel of John is a Gnostic text. I think this translation is further supported by John 1:12 ("But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name" ) which suggests that we can becaume Jesus, or at least like him.

I'm very new to Koine Greek, and I'm hardly an expert on Gnosticism, so I would really like to hear what others have to say about this verse.

Original?

Where is that 'original', simple theist? I'd like to see it.

Wait. Maybe just one letter from Paul by itself.

To come Rome, to come Rome, much trouble, little money

We actually don't have the originals for either the old or the new testaments. As for the the old testament, he has it pretty much right. A lot churches use old testaments based on the Greek Septuagint, so in many cases, you quite literally have a translation of a translation. Also added to the fact, that normally when someone translates the bible, so do it after they have already read it in English (or whatever their native language is) so they begin with a bias to what they think it should say. So in otherwords, people literally do start translating, based on previous translations.

As for the new testament, again we don't have an original. The best we have are varies Koine Greek manuscripts that dates hundreds of years after the original writting of the gosples/letters, and what the different versions of the gospels say vary widely. So not only do you have a problem with trying to get an accurate translation from a single manuscript, but you have to now also have to deal with the problem of different versions of the same gospel, saying different things in the original language.

interesting, thank you for sharing Piper. John is a very interesting book. me and a study partner used to go there a lot and the more we read, the more it's meaning seemed to almost grow into something deeper... if that makes sense.

below is a translation from the Amplified Bible. i usually use it along with other translations of the bible. the amplified bible has also helped me when looking at the original greek as a basis. sometimes there are different words for one translation... like different kinds of "flesh", both just translated into our English word "flesh". the amplified attempts to recognize the difference in the words.

(also i believe it to be kind of important to list the verses around the one in question, just to kind of know where the idea was coming from and where it went.)

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12. But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name.

13. Who owe their birth neither to bloods nor to the will of the flesh [that of physical impulse] nor to the will of man [that of a natural father], but to God. [They are born of God]

14. And the Word (Christ) became flesh (human, incarnate) and tabernacled (fixed His tent of flesh, lived awhile) among us; and we [actually] saw His glory (His honor, His majesty), such glory as an only begotten son receives from his father, full of grace (favor, loving-kindness) and truth. [Isa. 40:5]

15. John testified about Him and cried out. This was He of Whom I said, He Who comes after me has priority over me, for He was before me. [He takes rank above me, for He existed before I did. He has advanced before me, because He is my Chief.]

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Transliterated, Unaccented -- John 1...
(*how do you feel about the transliterated versions? later today i will have the actually greek available to me)

13 hoi ouk exhaimaton oude ek thelematos sarkos oude ek thelematosandros all ek Theou egennethesan.

14 Kai ho Logos sarx egeneto kai eskenosen enhemin, kai etheasametha ten doxan autou, doxan hosmonogenous para Patros, pleres charitos kai aletheias.

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from the information i have gathered John 1:14 is saying that the Word is Christ and He became flesh (human) to live among us. i really need to get my greek dictionary and strong concordance back from my mother's house before i can talk more intelligent on the subject, but i believe that it would be impossible for one to become flesh and live inside someone.

we would have to agree that greek is an inflected language. could it be possible that certain meanings could be altered considering the words in the phrase?

i'll be getting my books back today, so later i will be back and we can converse more on the subject. let me know your thoughts so far and thanks again for the post.