The Bible Compliments History
Offline The same theme and ideas are through the whole Bible, despite having 40 authors, being written on 3 continent, and being written in 3 different languages spanning over 1,600 years.
19 ancient historians who aren’t even Christian wrote about Jesus’ crucifixion
Thousands of years ago people though the earth sat on an animals back, but the Bible said “He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing.” –Job 26:7
The Bible claimed that the oceans had valley, before there was any way of a man figuring this out. “The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the LORD at the blast of breath from his nostrils.” –2 Samuel 22:16
There are over 25,000 archaeological finds that support the Bible, while none contradict it.
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
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Offline Where did that "letter" come from, todangst? Is that yours from a book page?
-Triften
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Offline I'm wondering why the thread is all stretched out to the right, myself. Edit: Looks like a problem with one of Master Jedi Dan's posts.
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
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Offline Where did that "letter" come from, todangst? Is that yours from a book page?
-Triften
I wrote it long ago as a teenager, I wouldn't post it here, it was in response from a christian who said something like "well, what sort of bible would impress you?" The complete illogical, irrational mess that is the 'bible' clearly came from a bunch of primitives.... any decent person of today could improve on it...
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
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Offline The complete illogical, irrational mess that is the 'bible' clearly came from a bunch of primitives....
And it starts with god making day and night BEFORE he makes the sun.
-Triften
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Offline Crossover, I'd be interested to know of any extra-Biblical evidence for a Hebrew exodus from Egypt.
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Offline I'm wondering why the thread is all stretched out to the right, myself. Edit: Looks like a problem with one of Master Jedi Dan's posts.
Yeah...I think it had something to do with posting a reply using Opera. I think the mods changed it back though :P
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
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Nonsense. The book of James contradicts almost everything Pauline doctrine says. Christians like Saint Augustine and Martin Luther hated the book of James.
Again, nonsense. In fact, there are no records of there ever having been even one contemporary account of Jesus.
"[T]here is not a single contemporary historical mention of Jesus, not by Romans or by Jews, not by believers or by unbelievers, not during his entire lifetime. This does not disprove his existence, but it certainly casts great doubt on the historicity of a man who was supposedly widely known to have made a great impact on the world. Someone should have noticed." - Dan Barker
http://www.rationalresponders.com/a_silence_that_screams_no_contemporary_historical_accounts_for_jesus
Over nothing... but spacetime is not nothing. So the claim is wrong.
The bible also says that the earth is unmoving, and that it rests on pillars.
What nonsense. The Greeks already were discussing the nature of the bottom of the sea. At the same time, you forget you're reading an english translation, written long after we knew about the nature of the bottom of the sea - meaning that this knowledge influences translation.
Here's another version of the same passage, where the word valley isn't used. :
2 Samuel 22:16 “And the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were discovered at the rebuking of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of his nostrils.”
NASB uses channels, not valleys. So does King James. There's nothing here that demonstrates knowledge unknown to humans.
And think: if "god" wanted to do that, to put in amazing information that no one knew, then why didn't he do it in a clear an unambiguous way? Your argument actually refutes itself: your 'god' can't even put something in the bible that clearly demonstrates imortant foreknowledge.
You didn't even cite one of them, and as for things not contradicting the bible, you're dreaming. You just cite a bunch of claims without backing anything up.
A few other points:
Even if each of these points were right, it's still ad hoc - you're just picking and choosing vague passages and then using scientific claims to state that these passages are accurate descriptions of the real world.
And there's the real irony - no one actually uses the bible as a means to know the world - they rely on empiricism and science. If the bible were really so accurate, why would there be a need to verify vis-a-vis scientific claims? Why didn't people use the bible to discover these things? Because they couldn't, because there was no way to read these passages as demonstrating these points until after SCIENCE learned it.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
That, and the earth isn't suspended.
None contradict it? Check this out:
Editorial Reviews of the book "The Bible Unearthed" - Finkelstein
Amazon.com's Best of 2001
The Bible Unearthed is a balanced, thoughtful, bold reconsideration of the historical period that produced the Hebrew Bible. The headline news in this book is easy to pick out: there is no evidence for the existence of Abraham, or any of the Patriarchs; ditto for Moses and the Exodus; and the same goes for the whole period of Judges and the united monarchy of David and Solomon. In fact, the authors argue that it is impossible to say much of anything about ancient Israel until the seventh century B.C., around the time of the reign of King Josiah. In that period, "the narrative of the Bible was uniquely suited to further the religious reform and territorial ambitions of Judah." Yet the authors deny that their arguments should be construed as compromising the Bible's power. Only in the 18th century--"when the Hebrew Bible began to be dissected and studied in isolation from its powerful function in community life"--did readers begin to view the Bible as a source of empirically verifiable history. For most of its life, the Bible has been what Finkelstein and Silberman reveal it once more to be: an eloquent expression of "the deeply rooted sense of shared origins, experiences, and destiny that every human community needs in order to survive," written in such a way as to encompass "the men, women, and children, the rich, the poor, and the destitute of an entire community." --Michael Joseph Gross --This text refers to an out of print or unavailable edition of this title.
From Publishers Weekly
Finkelstein, director of Tel Aviv University's excavations at Megiddo (ancient Armageddon), and Silberman, author of a series of successful and intriguing books on the political and cultural dimensions of archeology, present for the first time to a general audience the results of recent research, which reveals more clearly that while the Bible may be the most important piece of Western literature--serving concrete political, cultural and religious purposes--many of the events recorded in the Old Testament are not historically accurate. Finkelstein and Silberman do not aim to undermine the Bible's import, but to demonstrate why it became the basic document for a distinct religious community under particular political circumstances. For example, they maintain that the Exodus was not a single dramatic event, as described in the second book of the Bible, but rather a series of occurrences over a long period of time. The Old Testament account is, according to the authors, neither historical truth nor literary fiction, but a powerful expression of memory and hope constructed to serve particular political purposes at the time it was composed. The authors claim quite convincingly that the kingdoms of Israel and Judah became radically different regions even before the time of King David; the northern lands were densely populated, with a booming agriculture-based economy, while the southern region was sparsely populated by migratory pastoral groups. Furthermore, they contend, "we still have no hard archaeological evidence--despite the unparalleled biblical description of its grandeur--that Jerusalem was anything more than a modest highland village in the time of David, Solomon, and Rehoboam." Fresh, stimulating and highly engaging, this book will hold greatest appeal for readers familiar with the Bible, in particular the Old Testament--unfortunately, a shrinking percentage of the population. 16 pages of b&w photos not seen by PW. Agent, Carol Mann.
Copyright 2001 Cahners Business Information, Inc.
http://tinyurl.com/3323r8
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. - Seneca
I knew some one would say that. I'll adress all of this when I get home. I even have it all already saved into a word document, because what you siad is a common misinterpretation of the Bible.
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
no archeological finding contradicts the bible? I'd say every single fossil of a now extinct animal proofs the bible wrong.
(but of course i was just placed there to test or faith...)
"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts."
Billy Joel, 1993
And God spoke: You can stand under my umberella -ella -ella -eh -eh -eh ...
Can't wait. You might want to look through the forum devoted to biblical errancy prior to posting your arguments, to make sure they haven't already been traversed, and aren't employing any already-refuted fallacies.
The most recent attempt was made by this guy:
There are no theists on operating tables.
not quite impressive, because 1600 years are a lot of time, to write the same old story again and again after _carrying_ it to 3 continents. and, as todangst already said, those stories are more than contradictory.
if 40 authors would have _independently_ written those stories _within_ the life time of jesus, that would be impressive
micky mouse comics all have the same theme and ideas too, are written in far more than 3 languages on every continent. still no evidence for the existence of donald duck.
"And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts."
Billy Joel, 1993
And God spoke: You can stand under my umberella -ella -ella -eh -eh -eh ...
Nice catch. Yes. "Suspended' implies that there is an an 'up' and 'down' in space, and that the earth hangs 'up' - one more obvious blunder in the passage, indicating that it was written by primitive men and not inspired by anything other than 6th century bc babylonian cosmology.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
I'm still trying to figure out what part of the Bible says anything nice about history. Does history feel better now that it's been complimented by the infallible word of god?
(nb: The word you're looking for is "complement".)
Atheist Books
I will introduce to you two new terms, well, they may be new to you depending on your level of knowlege of Christian doctrine.
1. hermeneutics - the art and science of interpreting scripture.
2. exegesis - taking the Bible in its context (context meaning you take in to account the author, audience, time, gramme used, and intent of the letter).
Now, we will use hermeneutics and apply exegesis!
For those bystanders who don't know what todangst means when he speaks of what James says and what Paul says, I will explain. In the book of James, James tells his audience "faith without works is dead" (2:20). This is often thought to be contradictory to what Paul says throghout his entire 13 books in the Bible "we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ alone, and not by works. Actually, the two passages complement (happy kelly?) each other. Right after James 2:20 James goes on to talk about the story of Abraham (found in the Old Testament). Paul as well uses this same story. I won't go into the details of the story, you can read it for yourself.
But, basically in the story a man is tested by God, and he prooves his faith by his willingess to do works. You see how the faith and works go together here? Abrahams faith produces works! Paul says we are saved by faith alone, James says faith without workd is dead. James doesn't say we are saved by works, he says faith without works is dead...which it is. This means, that if you are saved and have faith, you MUST produce works..it will happen. If you have faith works will be produced. If you do not produce works, that shows that your faith is dead.
Get it?
All of that was hermeneutics, and we used exegesis!
What is your source for that? Wikipedia? Martin Luther was probably the biggest proponent of Soulah Scriptura you will find. He constantly said that the BIble had no errors and it was the word of God. If you have a real source, then please cite it...I would be very interested to see what they say!
A friend added this in a word document. This was a word document, and I just felt like pasting/posting it on here for discussion. I'm sorry, I wouldn't psot anything I know to be wrong. It is true, but what you are saying is true also. 19 ancient historians did write of the crucifiction, 1 was a contemporary, and I don't think he was a witness.
Space-time is not a physical entity. It is an imaginary geometric solid. And please, tell me where the Bible says it rests on pillars.
Ummm, no. Check your history on that again. Quote me something if you find it.
When we say "the BIble is perfect" we mean the original text is perfect. There is no perfect translation. Look it up in Hebrew!
Also, the Bible is God inspired. He didn't write the thing. A man who knows nothing of a topic, cann not write on that topic. If Paul were to write about computers, he would be thought crazy, and his books woldnt be in the BIble. See what I mean.
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
Yes. Yes it is.
So, which parts do we interpret and which are literal? Also, how do you know if you are interpreting correctly? Science requires reproducible results and, since I can ask 6 people and get 6 different interpretations, that hardly seems like science.
By which you mean that "love thy neighbor" means "love thy fellow tribesmen, all others taste the sword"?
Or the context of ignorant people trying to write about the nature of the solar system? In the context of the bible being written by ignorant people thousands of years ago, I take the whole thing to be suspect in its factuality. Tada! Exegesis!
Please, tell us who was contemporary. Keep in mind that contemporary means "lived at the SAME time", not lived about 50 years later. A number of historians wrote about the existence of Christians, not of Jesus. Writing about the fans of Sherlock Holmes does not count as evidence that Holmes actually existed.
And please, learn more about physics before arguing about it. Please explain how it is imaginary. You must be moving through something different than the rest of us.
1 Samuel 2:8 "The pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them."
Job 9:6 "Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble"
Job 26:11 "The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof."
So there are no contradictions in Hebrew and Greek? You might want to let Rook know over in the biblical errancy forum. That would be amazing news.
So... human judgment determines if something is God-inspired? How do you determine if the judgment is correct?
-Triften
EDIT: For, punctua-tion; problems?.!
Not unless you have a time machine set for 1985. If you do, make sure to bring back a copy of the latest Sports Illustrated.
I don't know if either term is original to biblical study, psychoanalysists have used the term hermeneutics since the 19th century.
Here are my definitions from my philosopher's dictionary written back in 1997.
I want to highlight that I did in fact write these 10 years ago.
EXEGESIS Critical explanation or analysis, especially of a text. This word gets tossed around a lot by christians in order to make their biblical mythologizing seem a profound science.
HERMENEUTICS The science and methodology of interpretation, especially of scriptural text. The term is used by people who want to offer up an opinion masked as intellectual exegesis.
All interpretive works are biased. This cannot be avoided. This is because in order to "interpret" you must work from a pre-existing concept that serves as the paradigm for the interpretation - i.e what you are going to make the book say. Your literally reworking it to fit into some pre-existing scheme. Notice that in the case of religious dogma that this means that the reader must choose what is wrong, what is right, and what each passage means, indicating that the reader is in fact choosing what is moral and not any god. It is the reader who decides what is right, what is wrong, what is intended, what is moral, what is just, what is sin, what is fact, what is fiction. This of course explains why there are so many takes on religion - because they originate in the minds of the believers. Yes, it is true that some biases or pre-existing notions are likely quite close to the "true" meaning, and there are ways to mitigate the bias (such as internal and external consistency of the interpretations) or the simple use of a team, rather than one interpreter, but in no case is there a way of assuring complete veracity of interpretation - for there is no universally agreed upon, non-arbitrary method of deciding "truth". (Historically, the main method of delineating myth from fact is the desire to avoid embarrassment - Myths are only dropped long after they are considered ridiculous in the mainstream - i.e. the extreme age of the ancients is correctly discussed as only a literary device to make them seem more important, Noah's ark and the tower of Babel become merely metaphors, etc. The more intellectual theologians - deists for example (Which include our forefathers like Jefferson) - forfeit even more - up to and including denying Jesus' divinity, or in some cases his very existence.)
See also this essay:
http://www.rationalresponders.com/the_self_refuting_nature_of_hermeneutics
Which demonstrates the very fact that theologians turn to hermeneutics is self refuting.
Hmm. I'm not sure if you're using the second word in it's proper form for that sentence. If you apply an interpretation, then you're providing an analysis.
I just want to say that there's quite a bit more than just that, and your defense of the contradiction is an old argument I have no wish to enter into now...
Instead, I want to highlight the reality is that theologians through the ages detested James because of the contradictions....
"...the epistle of St. James is an epistle full of straw, because it contains nothing evangelical." Luther's "Preface to the New Testament".
Luther's writings. Don't 'wiki' me young man, I have more citations than an MC has rhymes.
It's a very old internet meme, all the claims are rather inane. You're better than that.
Space-time is a physical entity. Look up string theory.
Even if you want to argue that space-time is relational, you've got to deal with the vacuum and vacuum energy, which 'ain't nuthin' either.
Nothing pleases me more than citing a bible passage to a christian:
1 Samuel 2:8 "The pillars of the earth are the LORD's, and he hath set the world upon them."
Both Luther and Calvin took this as proof that the earth did not move.
Umm, yes. Dont' forget where Greece is... surrounded by what.... SEA.
First, the passage says nothing that actually indicates prescient knowledge as I argue above, second, the Greeks speculated on the nature of the sea in ways that were not demonstrated until after columbus and beyond:
The crucial contribution of Thales to scientific thought was the discovery of nature. By this, we mean the idea that the natural phenomena we see around us are explicable in terms of matter interacting by natural laws, and are not the results of arbitrary acts by gods. An example is Thales’ theory of earthquakes, which was that the (presumed flat) earth is actually floating on a vast ocean, and disturbances in that ocean occasionally cause the earth to shake or even crack, just as they would a large boat. (Recall the Greeks were a seafaring nation.) The common Greek belief at the time was that the earthquakes were caused by the anger of Poseidon, god of the sea. Lightning was similarly the anger of Zeus. Later, Anaximander suggested lightning was caused by clouds being split up by the wind, which in fact is not far from the truth.
http://galileoandeinstein.phys.virginia.edu/lectures/thales.html
The first Greek to observe ocean tides, in the Atlantic in the early third century B.C., was the navigator and astronomer Pytheas, who also produced the correct explanation for them. He was 2,000 years ahead of his time, for it took that long for tides to be attributed (by Newton) properly to the influence of the moon. Until Newton's time, most scholars refused to believe that the moon could have any effect on the ocean, especially because one tide each day took place when the moon was not even visible in the sky.
http://www.sentex.net/~ajy/facts/greeksci.html
The shape of the world according to Hecataeus has a geometrical simplicity. It is a flat circle, with a continuous ocean forming the rim. The circular land mass is divided into two parts by an almost unbroken strech of water linked with the ocean on the west at the straits of Gibraltar, then running east the length of the Mediterranean, through the Black Sea and (after a short land bridge) into the Caspian Sea, which joins the ocean on the east.
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=aa32
All basically true statements about the oceans of the world, well before science could verify the claims.
This is contradictory.. if the work were 'perfect' then there wouldn't be a need to translate it! If a work requires translation, that it suffers a flaw!
Think this through.
One wonders why it has so many errors of the type a person from primitive times would have made...
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'
It ends up suffering even more flaws if it's translated by inerrantists.
One also wonders why, if the Jews were God's chosen people, he didn't provide them medical advice that was unbeknownst to the rest of the world. Things like boiling water to kill disease, washing hands before surgery, or warnings about the risk of genetic diseases like Tay-Sachs.
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
They did. They were often told to wash their hands after touching "unclean" things, and they weren't allowed to eat pork (pigs), because back then they weren't healthy to eat because they couldn't cook them right. They were also given strict rules about dead people and other "unclean" things. Not trying to stir up controversy, but you should consider both sides of the debate before making ignorant statements.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
I cannot take part in this discussion since I am not versed in ancient history, but I am a scientist and I do have an MSc in physics and I can tell you that is complete nonsense.
Einsteinian general relativity dictates that space and time are one unified entity and the distortion of which causes gravitational effects, and hence that causal effects which take place within the spatiotemporal fabric are, if the interaction between material bodies, causing small temporal and spatial distortions (technically, space contracts as a body accelerates, which is called the Lorentz-Fitzgerald contraction). Being that all material bodies are (in classical mechanics) divided into discrete entities by space and time. The distortive effect of matter on the continuum which causes relativistic kinematics (the dilation effect and the Lorentz-Fitzgerald effect) and relative acceleration(better known as gravity) indicates that spacetime is not an abstraction but a genuine entity which directly interacts with physical matter. If this were not the case, we would simply be ripped asunder into particles smaller than atoms since there would be no gravity. Also, time wouldn't exist so we would not be here discussing it. And there would be no such thing as acceleration hence no such thing as true kinematics, (since acceleration can only take truly be taking place for a body in absolute freefall relative to space-time, since everything else is technically stationary (according to relativistic kinematics).
"Physical reality” isn’t some arbitrary demarcation. It is defined in terms of what we can systematically investigate, directly or not, by means of our senses. It is preposterous to assert that the process of systematic scientific reasoning arbitrarily excludes “non-physical explanations” because the very notion of “non-physical explanation” is contradictory.
-Me
Books about atheism
They did? Where, exactly, are the verses stating anything about boiling water to kill disease, washing one's hands before surgery to prevent infection, or genetic diseases caused by inbreeding?
I did consider both sides of the debate before making a statement. The fact that a few of the Jews were observant enough to notice that touching dead people or eating pork had a tendency to make people sick does not change the fact that they still had no concept of germ theory. They didn't realize that apparently-clean water or apparently-clean surgeon's hands were teeming with bacteria.
As for pork, pigs were still being eaten by Israel's neighbors, and had been eaten before their time for quite a while. I find it unusual that a small minority tribe would be the only one to notice a connection between raw pork and disease and therefore stop eating it, while larger tribes would continue eating pork unaware. Israelites' rejection of pork probably had more to do with rejecting what was popular with Canaanites than any appreciation of disease, in the end. And, even if Israel did reject pork because of disease, why is there no verse explaining that cooked pork is just fine? Again, no appreciation of germ theory or the existence of parasites.
Götter sind für Arten, die sich selbst verraten -- in den Glauben flüchten um sich hinzurichten. Menschen brauchen Götter um sich zu verletzen, um sich zu vernichten -- das sind wir.
Holy crap. I was half way through replying to this, when I clicked one of your links, and left the page and all of the text is gone now. I should really copy it at certain points in case that happens again, you know...me being stupid. That is frequent!
I'll try to quick reply until i get back to where I was.
THE GREY TEXT you quoted....
1. Where it is talking about interprative works being biased, it is explaning eisegesis.
2. It is correct, which is one of the reasons there will never be a "perfect interpretation"...but in exegesis you must try to take your biases out of the text. Exegesis is more in depth than a one sentence definaition explaning how biased Christians are!
3. About the myths stuff....one, the explination there explains bad theology, not what is accapted...and Jefferson was not a theologian by any stretch of the imagination.
You searched hard for that quote didn't you. Because it is only found in one edition...because Luther retracted his statement! He later said this..."sets up no doctrine of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God."
That's REALLY funny. Before I lost my text I was really laughin, relaly hard. and I tried to explain it, but I had emotion goin on then...not any more.
My knowlege of string theory is limited to a 6 week PBS special. I can not comment on that. I shouldnt have posted this part because I know almost nothing about science. I can not comment on the string theory thing, and I personally can not comment on space-time either.
http://www.serve.com/herrmann/spacetime.pdf
Read that if ya like science. Some Christians love science and try to use that to prove God, me not...not my area. It's like football. Some folks are offensive linemen doin the dirty work...others are just observers in the stands thinkg (that was cool...wow, he got knocked on his butt...o wait, holding.....halftime...POPCORN OVER HERE!!!!). I'm more of a doctrine guy myself. Apologetics...not my thing either really. I'm not to good at defending the Christian faith right now. I barely passed high school Chemisty. You want a Christians perspective on science, go read C.S. Lewis and Lee Strobel and the like. When you say space-time...don't come to me.
AHHHH. I believe that is what we call check, but I shall wiat until I say check mate. I'll get back to you on this, but I know you won't like my response whatever it is, unless I conclude that you are correct.
However. At this point I must say this whole thing...deleted from my word documents. I have heard enough from you al to convince me that I should clear this out and make room for something else (can anyone say market economy v.s. command economy paper??? )
NONE of that predates hte book of 2 Samuel!!!!!
1050 b.c. is the magic number.
Explain yourself. But first, you think this through. Language has barriers. No book of the Bible was written to be a book of the Bible. They were are historical records, letters, etc. There meanings are not held by that language barriers, so that everyone can get the ideas of the Bible. HOWEVER, the direct doctrinal statements are containted by language barriers, which we can easily break. There is a need to translate it because it is essential to study of doctrine, not because if you don't get the write ending on a word you loose the whole meaing of it. (although there is one exception to that. The original KJV mistranslated 10,000 to 1,000 because the characters were so similar. But this error has been caught and fixed....notice how the error wasn't in the Hebrews, but rather the English!)
explain
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
Why yes! The bible often says how beautiful history is.
OOOPS. Stupid mistake by me. I wish I could say I caught that mistake as soon as I read your post...but no, I'm not even that smart. It took me to the note well part to get it. WOW.
My Master has no desire to be merely victor in a debate: he did not come into the world to fight a battle of logic just
for the sake of winning it. --Charles Spurgeon
Agreed, but I wasn't writing a book.
There's no way to avoid bias when you're a christian interpreting the bible: if you remove bias you'd have to approach the bible just as you'd approach the Koran.
And you tell me, how likely are you to interpret the koran and come away feeling it's the true word of 'god'?
We can talk about that more in depth...
Ad hominem
What matters are his arguments.
No. It's a well known position for Luther. And for other theologians as well. You can't just write off the differences between James and Paul, they are glaring, and the apologetics that attempts to wipe away the contradiction is just aPAULing.
Luther never moved from his original position that James contradicted Paul
Don't worry, I believe you.
OK, it's not a vital issue for us.
C. S. Lewis and Strobel are not the best sources on science.
You are quite fair, just one reason it is pleasant to talk to you.
LOL, yes it's a bad argument. I wish I could say there are 'good ones', but I don't think there are, but there are at least better ones.
Please remember that the english translation of the passage does not date from that time. So you can't assume that the passage was predicting what the ocean floor was like at that time.
2) MY point is that the greeks were conjecturing on the ocean floor too, and not by pointing to the book of Samuel. So even if Samuel predated the greeks, the point is moot unless you can show that the greeks were referencing it.
Gladly. A perfect piece of writing would be writing that speaks univocallly, with clarity, to anyone.
I usually do, in fact, I've had this discussion for years.
Because it is imperfect. A perfect language would have no barriers by definition. A perfect language would be a language everyone understood. A perfect language would not need to be taught or translated... you'd know it right away, as it would necessarily go to the heart of everyone.
[quote
No book of the Bible was written to be a book of the Bible. They were are historical records, letters, etc.
And some were barely concealed polemics, and others were politically motivated i.e. deutoronomy:
Again, a perfect message, inspired by a perfect god, for his own creation, for which he is perfectly responsible, would be automatically transmitted to all, without error, without any barrier.
Unless you have a new meaning of the word 'perfect' this is what the word means.
You can't say 'perfect' and then speak about limitations.
it's not perfect. Because it has a flaw: it's not a univeral language.
Think of the 'univeral translator' in star trek. A computer that instantly translates language while you speak.... a perfect written work would have to have this characteristic. The fact that the bible has to be
1) translated
2) interpreted
is proof that it is a flawed human artifact of earthly origin.
Why didn't god just write this, in a univocal, universal language:
Hello my creation! I have things to tell you. I created everything, your world, the stars, the sky, the animals and you. What is the world? The world is a globe, circling the sun. What keeps you from falling off? Gravity is an unseen force, that is a part of all matter, that draws you toward the globe. This is a force that you will come to understand, until then, worry over it not. It is not a force for you to worship, it merely is a part of the physical universe, just like the soil, the air, and you. It is everywhere. In time, you will come to understand it, for now know that I place this here solely to allow the future to verify that these are the words of your loving Creator!
I have more to tell you: There are many more worlds than just this one, but that is a matter for you to explore. All of this, the worlds, your own bodies, all you see before you, is composed of very small particles. The same particles, so you share your very essence in common with all the universe! There are ways for you to eventually learn and verify all that I say here, please do not let it worry you now. Trust that they will require you use your keen intelligence, and free thinking and your loving kindness that they will verify that these are the words of your Loving Creator. To learn of these things, explore all things, and do not fear uncovering truth. Much will surprise you, so allow all to speak their minds, as long as they use ration, intelligence, or intentions that are good in lieu of these abilities. They must show how they know, verify it, and show it in a way so others of keen intellect can understand and Know, not simply believe and accept. When these confusing things I speak of are discovered to be true by your OWN research, they will help verify My word, so that you will not have to believe, or use faith, but know that I am the your Loving Creator.
I have more to tell you: People and animals evolve into more complex and better forms, so that they will know and experience the wonderful pleasures of growth and maturation. In your world, there are actual physical things that cause illness - illness, accidents, and pain are not divine signs of my anger, for I have no anger towards my creation. These things are inherent in the world that you must learn about yourselves in. You should strive to never accept them, to eliminate them from your lives, as best as your abilities allow! This is all part of my plan. I have done this, I have placed you here as you are, so that you will grow to understand all things for your own, and have not simply given you all the answers - for a special reason. You will learn that I did not do this to harm you, and that any bad thing that happens to any of you causes my heart to break, but the best way to unfold truths is to do it for yourself, my dear children! To simply give you the answers would make them false to you. Work hard, and care for others, and keep trying and you yourselves will make these wonderful truths a part of you. You will discover them for yourselves. Have no fear, and trust that you as a people are capable of this task. Do not despair, even when the hour seems bleak. And do not take your stress of failure out on others. Remember at all times I believe in you, I love you, and I feel strongly that you will succeed!
There are those who ask Why did I do this? Why is there pain? Why must I know fear? Why must I die? These are fair questions, and they deserve respectful and intelligent answers, just as all earnest questioners do, no matter the question. I want you to know that I created the universe out of nothing, because I wanted to share the gift of existence with others who would appreciate it. This can only happen to beings who strive, and go through the pains of learning and acquiring knowledge themselves. Part of this learning is learning how to overcome adversity, and still care and love for others, and while this manner of creation pleases me greatly, and allows me to share with you what I know, you will find that it also is what you most desire as well! So please know that I have done this for the good of all of us, and never for Myself solely. Such selfishness is anathema to your God, as I hope it will be one day to you.
Here is something I want you to know: I do not want you to fall on your knees in thanks to me, nor do I want you to sacrifice animals or people to me! Do not purposely cause pain or death to honor a god of life and love! Those who would give thanks and respect to me, remember this: I want you to simply love each other,(by this I mean care, feel for, not a sexual love, although sexual love is permissible where the two mutually respecting and acknowledging people desire it, and they are also responsible for any ramifications that come from the union. This includes emotional bonds, and any children born of the union.) I want you to help each other, and not use my words to justify your own petty hatreds nor misuse My words to control others. This is how those who wish to thank me should give thanks, by living by these words, intended to help you. Love each other and care for each other, and the world. This is how you can both thank me, and succeed in your own lives. Trust in Me that I will Know when you have done these things and trust in Me that I will be pleased.
Yet you all have a choice in this - you can succeed or fail, nothing is already written. You are co-designers in the universe with me, but remember this does not make you gods, nor better than any other sentient life you will meet one day from afar, so try to be humble, yet do not despair, for you are certainly wondrous, creative beings. All of you are special, wonderful, and I love you, but none of you are more special than any other, even those who are strong in the knowledge of my words, and brave in performing the deeds that I will speak on later.
Heed these words well, and take care to never abrogate or change them in any way just as you will not do so in any other place: I, your Lord, tell you that Women are the equal of men - intellectually, spiritually, even if they are physically weaker in most cases. Do not confuse physical strength with the worth of a person, for the old are wiser than the young, even as the young are often stronger. If physical strength were the only sign of greatness, then man would be lesser than the ape or a lion and this is not so. Children are not inferior either, merely younger and less wise. Their wisdom will come just as any other's has, so while they must listen to parents to gain their wisdom, and use it in the place of their still growing wisdom, they must otherwise be treated with love and respect. They are the future, so while they must listen to you, parent, care for them as much as you care for yourself, if not moreso! Remember that of nearly all the things you do, being a parent is the closest you come to god. This does not mean you are a tyrant, anymore than I am a Tyrant - for I am a Loving Creator who seeks to share life with you, to allow you the joy of growing, not cause any harm to you. This means you have a sacred trust to help your children to grow into good men and women. Use your wisdom and the wisdom of other good parents, although the final say should be yours, inspired by these words, and not another's. Remember my words: Your responsibility is great, but the rewards are greater! Now, I would speak directly to any child, if they cannot read this, I ask adults and parents to read it to them: Child, love your parents, for while I am your creator, they too are part of your creation. Remember this always: while they are your parents, and responsible for your safe and good care, they are people and make mistakes - so while it is their sacred trust to do all they can to make you into good men or women, do not demand perfection from them! Respect them, even as they fail. Know that I am the lord and that I love you with all my being, and that your parents should try to do so as well, as best they can. Remember this too, and let it make your heart light: - your parents were once children too!
My Beloved Creation, as you remember to respect men, women and children wherever you find them, remember also: No matter the color of the skin, nor the strangeness of culture, all you will meet are you equals, and all deserve your respect and love. Some may cause you to doubt my words at times, and this I understand, but remember this is your failing, not a truth about them. There is no color or sex of person that you may meet that is less than you. Remember to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, as the ancients have said, but also remember that others are different and may not desire what you want! Ask them and see what they believe in! Do not force others, even for their own benefit, unless it be your own child who has lost his way, or the mentally befuddled individuals who can be shown medically to have lost all reason. Remember that I have given My word to all people in all lands, but still you may meet others, both wise and good, who do not believe. Leave them be if they do not believe this word - the truth must win out. The best way to prove the truth that I am a good god, and that I am real is to offer proof - show them the good life that comes from following the words of God, show them the proofs that I am real, for you yourself trust in things proven, not in things demanded or forced upon you. You yourself would not buy even an egg without proof that it is not spoiled, so do not expect others to take the ultimate reality of God merely on faith, when the path of reason exists. Only logical and scientific proofs quell fears, not blind beliefs. Truth is for all to see. Truth is truth. Share it!
If you meet others who still resist, out of emotion, such as fear or hatred of you, and seek to make you an enemy, remember this: It is far better to love your enemy than to harm him, for no slave or beaten person truly would love his tormentor. By this I literally mean you should persevere and not strike back at those who wish to harm you. If a man or woman strikes your cheek, offer him or her the other. Literally. And do not smile in a superior manner or show hatred. This is hard, I know, but it is the best way. Those who do so, who trust in these words despite their fears, and do so, at the risk of their lives, trust in Me and find the following words to be the holiest of all My Words: Those who would turn the other cheek to their enemy, to help him come to Know the word of their Loving Creator, in doing this they come closer to god than in any other thing that one may do, for in doing so they come as if they were a loving parent to the transgressor. Those who offer the other cheek to an enemy even unto death, know this with inner joy: you will join me on that day in paradise, and stand beside me, for in fact you already walk along with the lord as the most dearly loved among all whom I love! Know that you are doing the Lord's work.
Remember also to allow questions, arguments and doubts, for those who oppose these words with doubts. The truth cannot suffer from such queries. In fact, you will learn that doubts, well answered, prove truths, not weaken them! Remember this in all things you do, whether in politics or science as well. Question with boldness even My existence, for few things please me more than a keen mind at work to seek truths.
Use your minds to better your world. Know this: Compassion and love, that which you call the "heart", and actually originates in your head, are vital for you, so that you care for others and temper the works that spring forth from your wisdom. This makes Me happy, for loving another, and giving of yourself is the greatest of works you can perform, but remember that only your logical, rational and empirical mind can make proper decisions for you. When you care for others, I mean All others, all you see, care for all life - for even the animals have a value, and you must be a steward for the world, not its master, and a wise and loving steward is a better caretaker than a foolish and loving steward. The woman or man who destroys his or her own house goes homeless. The woman or man that makes all the world his or her friend and neighbor has an entire world they can depend on.
At times, I will send a special person to remind you of what is important. At times a simple message from this prophet will aid you, when you seem lost. These men who spread My message will be well proven to you, so that there will be no doubts. They are not gods. They should not be worshiped. They are not better than you. They exist only to help spread My message. They do not require alms, or money. They can not heal in magical ways, nor do anything you call "magic", although they may reveal powerful secular truths that may lead to such wondrous things. They will use rational arguments, reasons and offer proofs. They exist only to spread the message of love. Love them! but do not call them gods, for I am the only God. Remember this: Who ever speaks for me, as My chosen messenger, My message remains the same, and is always simple and direct! I will never confuse you, or lie to you, and I will always offer clear proofs of what I say, as I have done here. Those who lie and confuse do not speak on my behalf. Those who use my words to hold power over you, to control you, to take from you, to hurt you, to hurt others, or cause you to hate others, to gain wealth, those who use it in a cynical, unbelieving way commit the worst of crimes. Those who I send will simply tell you of what I have already written here, and add nothing to this word. Those who hold things to be miracles or signs of god other than their own existence or proofs of their status as prophets are liars, for I have already created all that you need. You are the first and last miracle. Those who claim other words are my direct words are liars, or deluded. This is my first and last word to you, My prophets will only remind you of this word, and guide you back to this word Have pity on those who are deluded, or seek to delude you with false words, for theirs is a pain of doubt and anguish. Remember this always: Those who wish to communicate with me, can do so by loving your fellow woman and man, and by creating great works of art, or science that may possibly benefit all. There is no clearer way to communicate with me than to love another. There is no reason to request things of me, all is done. All that is required is already in your hands. The rest is up to you. Remember me by keeping these words holy, and prove this by works. Remember that you have the ability to make your world a place of wonder or a place of misery. The power is with you, and the secret is to work together and use all your abilities, your ability to care, to show concern, to think, to reason, to experiment, to create, to learn and to grow. Mistakes and failings will ever happen, yet you must strive towards these goals always, and always forgive those who try and fail. Those who do so, who love, who help others, who forgive others, even those who otherwise may doubt my words, will never perish, but will continue on in spirit - a continuation of themselves and all they treasure, with me, forever. This I promise to you, and this is a promise that you can trust that I will never rescind. Eternal life is yours to earn, just as a child can truly be said to earn his keep in his parents home, even as he owes his existence to them, by showing love and respect to his parents. Trust, not believe, that this is so, for I will never lie to you. Trust, not believe, that this is so, and you will never die, but live forever.
Lastly, I will say unto you: If my words seem confusing to you, wait, and read them again. Doubt is not a bad thing, for it leads to striving to understand, and if you must have doubt rather than guess and risk believing error, then hold to the doubt. Do NOT interpret My words, or change them, except as translations for the future, there will be future languages that differ from the one I have written in now. Keep My words simple. Whenever two meanings seem possible, choose the simpler, straight forward one! Teach my words, but never enforce them. Never hold My word back from anyone who would read it. I would prefer that a whole host of interpreters DO not come about, for this book is simple for a reason, It is simple so everyone can know it themselves. It does not require others to know it for you! It is for each person to know, as best they can. Keep my words with you always, my beloved creation, and read well the final words of God that I will speak in this book: If you cannot remember anything else from this Holy book, remember this: I am your creator and I love you!
Love God.
"Hitler burned people like Anne Frank, for that we call him evil.
"God" burns Anne Frank eternally. For that, theists call him 'good.'