Why is it so easy for Americans to believe?
*Fewer than half of all high school seniors read at levels considered adequate to follow even moderately complex directions."
(CDF Reports 12, 1990): 10; Ann Rosewater, "Child and Family Trends: Beyond the Numbers," in Caring for America's Childern.
Translation: There are two elements to this. First, people who don't -- or can't -- read, don't bother to research for themselves. They trust the pastor, or the 10 oclock news, or their mother. Second, basic logic might be simple, but good critical thinking takes practice. The best practice comes from reading relatively complex arguments.
So, in partial response to shelleymtjoy's question about whether religion was as strong as ever, I submit that Americans are as dumb as ever.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
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in a country where blatant purveyors of dishonesty thrive (see Fox news, coal industry lobbyists, makers of head-on, etc) it's no suprise that religion has a stranglehold.
www.derekneibarger.com http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=djneibarger "all postures of submission and surrender should be part of our prehistory." -christopher hitchens
Ok, I did live in the states in the early 90's, I went to school in Manhattan and in L.A. now from my experience, I was a a freaking genius, I never studied, I never did homework (well I did but I normally finished it before class was over) and I had a 99.4 average or a 4.0 the only ones to score higher were the asians (bastards had .2 to .4 higher than me) Now, i knew many of the guys and girls that barely could read and yet passed to the next grade, how I don't know, heck their eassy's were barely readable or understandable. Now coming back to Canada (after being out since '86 and coming back in early '92) I was immediately put in the honour courses (where I was states side) my grades went from 99.4 to 60 percent, I actually had to start to study, do homework and go back to general level instead of honours, and my average even in general was between 77 - 88 percent depending on the course.
There is a huge difference on the education level, yes the U.S had a great level of wealth, and great colleges and universities, but , at the high school, junior high there are huge problems (i never attended a U.S. university so i have no clue how good or bad they are so I won't really comment on them). Students should never pass a grade if they cannot read at that grade level or generally pass if they don't understand the material of the courses. Education is a great tool, but states side, at least in my experience school is just a place to leave your kids during the day.
I don't know what relation academic performance has upon a person's guillability to spiritual beliefs. I'm sure there are Phd holders who attend church but as to what percentage I can only speculate.
My perception ( anecdotal evidence ) is that most people simply adopt the religion that they are surrounded by...a sort of monkey see, monkey do effect.
I became a Christian because I live in North America and was raised by Christians. I suppose if I was raised in India I would have probably become a Hindu. If I was born in Thailand I would probably have adopted Buddhism. Born in Iran, a Muslim.....
I don't think that's the problem. Many countries have high education quality and high Theist populations.
One of the theories about American religiousity I've heard in Europe is a lack of a welfare state.
People are in constant economic fear and know the state/government/society won't aid them if they fall on hard times so they turn to sky fairies
To be clear, I have never put forth a single cause of American religiosity. I merely point out a part of the big picture.
To Pineapple, which country are you thinking of that is highly educated and deeply fundamentalist?
To Mrjonno, there is evidence that economic fear is a major cause of depression and family instability in America. It's also well known that religion caters well to those who are not in a position to help themselves. I don't have a problem with the idea that the American welfare system has an effect on our religiosity. I'd hesitate to guess how much of an effect, though.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Yes. This is a very difficult thing to measure. I've known many PhD's who go to church. The trick is, most of them who've had a couple of beers with me have started dropping "code words" when I mentioned my atheism. Bottom line, my anecdotal evidence is that many educated people adhere to religion without believing in it.
People almost always adhere to the religion their parents practice, but it's very difficult to develop surveys that accurately measure whether people literally believe the religion, or believe in adhering to the religion. It's a big difference.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Last thing for now. I'm not on my computer, so I don't have the source, but I'm sure that the correlation between religiosity and education/intelligence only starts becoming dramatic at very high levels -- both for intelligence and education. Thus, among workaday scientists, the number of adherents (see my previous post) to religion is nearly as high as non-scientists, but among the elite, atheism is much more pronounced.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Wait, a minute, are you talking fundamentalism or belief in general?
If you're talking about fundamentalism, then I don't think there is.
Yeah, I don't want to derail the thread with another moderate vs. fundamentalist debate, but remember that my opinion is moderates are people who aren't quite smart or brave enough to give up religion entirely, and fundamentalists are those who are too dumb to live in the same world with the rest of us. So definitely, I would expect the least educated countries to be fundamentalist, the moderately educated to be mostly religious, but predominantly moderate, and the most highly educated countries to be substantially more non-theist.
Curiously enough...
Country
Percent who say religion is very important (Pew survey)
IQ
(from Lynn & Vanhanen)
Angola
80
69
This data begs questions, of course. The IQ rankings don't take into account many aspects of public education. Also, there is no way to extract the actual percentages of smart vs. dumb people -- averages are just not very useful for that. This is not meant to be a definitive argument. It just corroborates my theory, which is that the more educated/intelligent a country is, the less religious they'll tend to be.
Interestingly, those plucky Brits who keep talking about how little influence the church has there -- note that Great Britain is the only country surveyed with an average IQ over 100 and religious fervency over 30%.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I think the larger picture was that people who are lazy tend to have lower academic performance. Sure, someone might grasp a concept without studying but you don't learn to read without opening a book. Because these people aren't in the habit of reading/researching on their own, they are more likely to believe whatever they hear. This spoonfeeding is typical within religion.
I don't doubt that some people are highly capable and willing yet education is unavailable to them or that highly educated people choose to believe. However, an unfortunate consequence of technology and the overall progress of civilization is that it generally assists people in being lazy, if that is the path they choose.
I remember Sam Harris mentioning that poverty and lack of education are not neccessary for one to be a fundamentist, even a radical fundamentalist. He was referring to the 15 Saudi Arabian hijackers who help commit the 911 terror attacks.
These men were from economically secure backgrounds and very educated. Apparently they were highly intelligent individuals as well.
Nevertheless, their critical thinking skills were not applied to their religious beliefs and the rest..unfortunately...is history.
If I ever get around to writing a book, I'm going to ask you to be one of my proofreaders. That's exactly what I was trying to say.
I'm not trying to draw an exact correlation. I'm trying to demonstrate a trend.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Urm...according to those IQ averages the average person in Angola, Ghana, Ivory Coast, Kenya, Mali, Nigeria, Senegal, South Africa, Tanzania, and Uganda are technically retarded according to some reports of retardation level.
I find that rather hard to believe.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Here are my thought about why it is so easy for Americans to believe.
1. Default religion. Many have not thought too deeply about religious beliefs. For those people, whatever beliefs they were raised with will remain their beliefs. In America, Christianity is the default religion.
2. Market forces. There is a strong financial incentive for people in the religion business to convert non-believers and support believers in their faith. There is no corresponding financial incentive for disbelief. Atheists have yet to think of a good reason that someone should give us 10% of their earnings for convincing them that there is not a god.
3. Social incentive. Churches are great places to make connections. Fellowship is a powerful incentive for people to maintain religious faith.
4. The Lottery Effect. Have you ever noticed that far more lottery tickets are sold when the value of the prize gets high. People would rather spend a dollar on an infinitesimal chance for a multi-million dollar payoff than a modest chance at a modest award. The reward offered by religious proponents is likewise great, luring people who might otherwise never be interested. Atheists cannot offer eternal life. The best we can do is help people reclaim the rest of this life, the only real life they'll ever have. But even that is not altogether positive. Life without the comforts of religion and the community it brings may appear to be less enjoyable than life with religion. We cannot even offer the satisfaction of being able to say, "I told you so." The lottery effect is not the same as Pascal's wager, but it has some characteristics in common. The Lottery Effect does not provide an incentive to believe. It just explains why some people reap a great psychological reward from belief.
5. Entertainment value. Sometimes we atheists fail to take this into account, but religion can be entertaining. The music is good. Many preachers are very good storytellers. For many, the pomp and dignity of Roman Catholic or Greek Orthodox services can be very moving.
6. The God-Shaped Hole. It seems to me that ther is an innate human tendency to seek communion with the divine. The existence of that tendency does not necessarily mean that the target that we seek exists. There is a yearning that seems to be universal among human cultures, although not among individuals. Like numerous other human characteristics, (e.g. height, intelligence, and happiness), this yearning probably occurs in a standard bell curve like distribution among human beings. There have been numerous theories as to why evolution would lead to such a yearning. At this point I think the correct answer is that we don't know why it's there. (See, e.g. The God Gene by Dean Hamer.) But I think there is good evidence that it is. It is easy to observe it in others. Perhaps atheists are simply those who are two deviations from the mean in yearning for the divine.
7. Educational Failures. The American education system does a poor job of teaching critical thinking. We have poor science education.
8. Pascal's wager attracts a few. I think this is a minor one, but it explains it for a few.
9. Cognitive Illusions. People are superstitious about a lot of things. Huge percentages of Americans believe in things like astrology, reincarnation, ghosts, and so on. We are subject to many cognitive illusions that lead to superstition. There is a lot of work on cognitive illusions out there. I'm an eternal beginner in studying the subject, but some good references are:
In a TED lecture (www.ted.com), Daniel Dennett suggested that religion can be analogized to an evolving organism. it changes to fit better in its environment and compete with its competitors. The "environment" for religion is the human mind in which it exists. The religions we see practiced today are honed by competition to be most fit to take advantage of our cognitive illusions, fulfill our desires, and survive in the environment of the fallible human brain.
10. Self-Deception. For some people, probably a pretty small minority of believers, there is such a strong desire to believe that they can actually make themselves believe. I think the capacity for self-delusion over the long term is limited. Otherwise we could self-delude ourselves into ecstasy and all be deliriously happy.
This is really just a beginning. I am certainly wrong about a few of these. Unfortunately, I have no way of determining which of these I'm wrong about. I could be wrong about every one of them.
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It depends a lot on the demographic of the people given the tests. Most IQ tests are based on things that would be taught in school, what you and I would consider rudimentary education. There are many places in a lot of these countries where such education quite simply isn't available so the people don't even get the opportunity to learn the things being asked in the IQ tests. I'm sure if they had this opportunity as we did then their average marks would be much higher.
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
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I definitely agree. We (generalization) no longer need to study a subject in order to sound knowledgeable. We just have to go on the internet and wiki it. I admit that I am guilty of this from time to time though generally I do this in order to refresh my memory. However, I also am aware that I cannot believe everything I read and hear.
There is a communication theory called the magic bullet effect/ hypodermic needle effect. This theory was developed in the 20's but the general idea was that people were concerned that mass media could 'shoot the desires of the source directly into the thoughts, attitudes, and subsequent behaviors of the receivers'. Though this theory is outdated I think there is a small part of it that remains true. The problem lies not with the media (technology) but with the receivers. Most 'receivers' of information lack critical thinking skills and motivation - they tend to just simply believe what they want.
Shelley's absolutely correct in her assessment that technology has reinforced intellectual laziness. While I think there are definitely other aspects of American persona that feed the religious zealousness, technology still plays a part. But it's not technology's fault - it's the people's.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
My mistake. I thought IQ tests were supposed to test intelligence, not education.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
They are, but MANY that I see are still based on things we'd only learn through education. It's why I hold little to no sway on IQ scores, I've seen too many biased towards one area of knowledge (ie, maths, geography or english is given too much sway) and very few that don't require education so could be used globally with the state of the world today.
Organised religion is the ultimate form of blasphemy.
Censored and blacked out for internet access in ANZ!
AU: http://nocleanfeed.com/ | NZ: http://nzblackout.org/
Did 2 weeks of posts vanish again?!
Yeah. Server crash.
Is it hosted at the Vatican?
2 weeks lost, Server crash. That hurts. Why no double back up ?
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OP , I think fixing the TV should be a top agenda,
The fucking tv doesn't even promote and teach the computer, let alone balance xians with freethinkers etc etc etc etc etc, The tv is hugely important for raising world wide LOGIC ....
Atheism Books.
Atheism is the new Goth, which was the new punk, just like the kids in school who followed those ways, did it to belong to something because no one would pick them to play on their kick ball team; now have found a way to stand for something because you cant stand for anything else. Wonderful that you have found a way to celebrate the absence of belief. A big group of scared little people, scared to say they stand for something, hope in something, believe in something; afraid they will be laughed at by the other kiddies. I say GROW UP! All of you know of course, because you all already know everything-- that there really is no TRUE atheist. If you're interested and can screw up the courage--Ill explain.
The Devils Greatest Trick was convincing the World he does not exist.
discipleboy, "Ill explain."
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Please do I am waiting .....
Jesus, an ATHEIST, hangs out with Punk Rockers of course ....
Atheism Books.
This has nothing to do with the OP. Stay on topic and keep your useless and baseless insults to your self. Consider this a warning.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
What's an athesist? Would I need a topical cream?
For that matter, what is my "interested"?
If my interested (verb??) and can screw up the courage... I had no idea that my interested could screw. I wish I knew what the mystery verb was. Oh, well. Perhaps god doesn't care about grammar. After all, you just need to believe. You don't need to be able to communicate your belief effectively.
Oh, but then there's that whole "Go forth and preach the gospel to all men" bit. I guess grammar is important after all.
Hmmmm..... I think I've typed long enough that if discipleboy actually reads my post, he'll come to the conclusion that he's wasted a good two minutes of his life. This is only fair, since I wasted two minutes of my life reading his.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I like how we get accused of being on a fadwagon, then they refer to themselves as sheep.
It looks as though your babysitter is going to keep this thread from running, by all means let's protect ignorance. By the way my insults were well based, and a measured response to some of the verbal sewage spewed on this site. Have you all been reduced to contriving your victories by criticizing grammer?
Before we begin let's agree on a definition, Atheist = One that asserts the lack of existence of a diety.
The Devils Greatest Trick was convincing the World he does not exist.
Careful. In making a positive assertion the burden of proof is yours. A better definition is "an atheist is a person the understands that the concept of god is empirically unfalsifiable and as such chooses the non-existence of god as the default position."
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False.
If you check your critical thinking, you'll see that the one who makes an assertion is the positive claimant. The person who does not make a positive claim is under no obligation to assert anything. Since atheists do not claim that anything exists, their position is the default. Theists claim that a god exist. They are the ones making an assertion.
So, a better definition is:
Atheist: One who does not believe that a deity exists.
If we were to hold to your reasoning, people who do not believe in six foot tall invisible housecats would be asserting the non-existence of six foot tall invisible housecats. Have you ever met someone who goes around asserting such a thing? Clearly not. In fact, we can come up with a virtually infinite list of things which do not exist. If we were forced to defend the position that all of these things do not exist, we'd never get around to examining those things which obviously do exist!
What you're doing is shifting the burden of proof. You're trying to say that we are claiming something. If you read the essay I linked, you'll see that this is impossible.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
I agree with you to a point but your definitions are backwards. An agnostic is the one that chooses the non-existence of god as a default. By definition an atheist is someone without theism. These are they that actually assert that fact. Membes of this forum proove that by refering to themselves as "strong atheists" which in their definition is someone who strongly asserts the aforementioned definition. Your "better" definition is actually a ploy allowing an ignorant atheist to hideout as an agnostic.
The Devils Greatest Trick was convincing the World he does not exist.
Not everyone on this site says they are a strong atheist. Many, but not all, atheists say they see no proof in god and therefore have no belief.
If god takes life he's an indian giver
Strong athesim as promoted on this site does not consider the concept of god as a valid idea. They need neither to prove nor disprove the existence of a deity. The very idea of a deity has no merit.
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Did you even bother to read the link I posted? Do you understand what a positive claim is?
No, an agnostic is a person who has no knowledge of a god. All atheists have to be agnostic, for if there is no god, it is impossible to have knowledge of it.
You need to look into the psychology of belief and knowledge before you start claiming that agnostics or atheists choose their beliefs.
Here we agree.
Those are them what gives atheism badness in name.
Dude, how difficult can this be? Do you go about calling yourself a non-Buddhist? No, you don't. Neither do you call yourself a non-Bertrand-Russell's-Teapotist. Neither do you call yourself a non-Wiccan. You simply don't believe in Wicca or Buddhism. You don't have to prove that they are false, do you?
If you insist on judging all of atheism by strong atheists, I will insist on judging all theists by Tomas de Torquemada.
Wouldn't you get really upset if I took the most ridiculous Christian belief I could find and told you that because someone believes something patently stupid, Christianity is wrong? If someone claims they can prove conclusively that there is no god, that's their own misunderstanding of critical thinking, and doesn't have any effect on who is actually making a claim.
You can't prove there aren't any unicorns, and I can't prove there isn't a teapot in orbit around Jupiter.
Are you done making a strawman by taking a philosophically weak interpretation of atheism and knocking it down? Would you care to discuss the philosophically sound arguments?
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
Maybe I'm just particularly depressed and in need of motivation today. However, this is the second best quote I have come upon today. We really need to make some posters. (OT, I know. Sorry...)
So wht's the best one? You can't tease us like that!
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So wht's the best one? You can't tease us like that!
Sapient: "A weak atheist might cry for a few days a weak theist may pray for a few, and both of them are wasting the little time they get."