The Israel challenge
Offline Okay, so these atheists believe themselves to be so much more rational and logical than people of other faiths. Fair enough. I think that's human nature. Jews, Christians, Sikhs and everyone else assumes the same.
IMO, one of the greatest proofs, of not just A G-d, but the G-d of the Bible, is Israel. They have done some things that have never been done, before or after, by any other people.
What makes this significant, is that these things were predicted (for you antitheists) or prophesied thousands of years in advance.
The prophet Isaiah records that Israel will be chased to all ends of the earth, but that she WOULD be regathered.
Well, she WAS scattered. for two THOUSAND years, the Jewish people maintained a national identity, a culture, a language, and a religion, in spite of not JUST the tendency of assimilation, but also pogroms, persecution, and violence against them in virtually every corner of the globe.
That such a nation could maintain adherence is remarkable, in itself. But what seals the deal is that in 1948, just as the Bible predicted, Israel WAS regathered back to her promised land, the land of her inheritence.
NOW, my challenge is this-
Forget the fact that this was prophesied. I would like to see how close any of you so-called rationalists can come to showing us another people in history doing anything like this, maintaining a separation, maintaining a nation, a language, a unique and independent culture, for anywhere NEAR this long. Naturally, this must be done while under the exile, or it wouldn't be very remarkable at all.
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It's called a self-fullfilling prophesy.
The best way to bring down an institution is to prophesize that it will fall.
Same thing goes for the Jews returning to Israel.
"I am an atheist, thank God." -Oriana Fallaci
Except they didn't maintain a national identity. In fact, they attempted to assimilate again and again, but were always held apart by those around them due to their religion. They maintained an ethnic identity by being kept at a distance by the communities they were part of, by being pushed into ethnic enclaves and ghettos, just as the Rom were able to stay cohesive in part by being shunned.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
You're having some trouble comprehending relevancy and causality. With regard to Israel's history, it is either:
1) Unique
or
2) Not unique.
If it's unique, that proves that no other nation has a similar history. Fantastic. No other nation has the United States' history, either. We're quite singular in the length of time it took us to rise from untamed wilderness to world superpower.
You see, there's no correlation between unique history and god or prophecy. What you may not be aware of is that many ancient cultures had prophets, and many of them predicted things that happened later. This is not proof that prophecy is supernatural. It's proof that sometimes, people predict things that happen.
As someone else has pointed out, prophecies can be fulfilled because people want them to be. Do you think Jews were unaware of the biblical prophecy that Israel would reform? Do you think America was unaware? Don't be naive.
Oh, and the bible didn't predict that in 1948, Israel would reform. The psalmist predicted that Israel would reform, and it happened that verse 48 of that particular Psalm was one of the main verses. Consider again that everyone was aware of this, and as 1948 approached, there were many Americans and many Jews who noticed that there was a possibility of the prophecy being "fulfilled." Prophecies are vague. That's the whole point. If it's vague enough, people will create their own fulfillment. If Israel had reformed in, say, 1956, nobody would care that the verse didn't line up. Since it did, everybody thinks it's prophecy. You see how it works? Misses don't count for anything, but hits do. It's interpretation bias.
Simply put, once a prophecy has been made, and people are aware of it, they have the ability to make it happen. That doesn't prove the prophet was visionary. It proves that people can cause prophecies to come true.
Atheism isn't a lot like religion at all. Unless by "religion" you mean "not religion". --Ciarin
http://hambydammit.wordpress.com/
Books about atheism
One word POLAND !!!!!!!!!!!!!111OneOneOne
HA HA You arguments are so silly maybe you start researching before asserting. Maybe you rethink your prophesy babble in light of this XD.
Warning I’m not a native English speaker.
http://downloads.khinsider.com/?u=281515 DDR and game sound track download
You're right, right up until that last statement. If we were talking about the FALL of an institution, you'd have a fine point. But you can't seriously be suggesting that to CREATE an institution, all we need do is prophecy it? In case it's not clear, I AM looking for specific examples here. I consider MYself to be rational, too. And given enough examples of exiled peoples, I believe we could look, statistically, at the situation, and see how many standard deviations Israel is from the mean exiled nation. I think it'd be fun, even though that probably makes me a nerd. {MOD EDIT: Cleaned up some formatting that made page wide.}
Aannnd maybe you should throw out more than "a word" before proceeding to laugh, so you look like you have some sense, or at least a point to make???? {MOD EDIT: Formatting.}
Except that again, they did not maintain a national identity, only an ethnic one, which is different. A national identity would have been a political entity, small baronies of Judah if you will.
The Rom, or Romani, are the Gypsies.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
I suppose it depends on how you define a "national identity." I see what you mean, but I think your definition is rather post-modern, where a nation is defined by its politically independent status. I'm speaking in the historical context, when we speak of "nation-states" understanding the "State" part to refer to the political side of things, and the "nation" part to refer to the "social glue" if you will. By this standard, it's really almost undeniable that they did maintain national identity. They maintained a distinction between themselves and the "goyim" (Non-Jew, though it has, at times, been made out to be an uglier concept). They did maintain a religion, separate from that spoken by their host States. This was also a driving factor in why they tended to live in close-knit communities, both because of their beliefs on the importance of family and community, and also because of the prohibition against many types of work on the Sabbath (while requiring them to congregate each Sabbath). And for this time, they maintained a LANGUAGE which was not the official language of any State for about 2000 years, and spoken almost exclusively by them. In fact, counting Yiddish, you could say that they maintained TWO distinct languages, for much of that time.Okay, then, the Gypsies. Yes, I'm somewhat familiar with them. Let's talk about them. How many of these criteria did they meet, and for how long? Do you have any specifics handy(either of you)?
Specific references? Not handy, no, but the Rom have maintained, by your standards, their 'national' identity (ie: their ethnic and cultural identity) across both Europe (including the UK) and North America (having expanded their range into Canada and the US) for hundreds of years, including maintaining their oral traditions and cultural identity, and yes, preserving their own language despite living in dozens of countries.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
*shrug*Okay, but "hundreds" and "thousands" are different by a factor of ten.
I'm guessing that's going to translate into quite a jump in standard deviations, come number crunching time. I just thought since so many here seem eager to show all religions to be hogwash, maybe someone would jump at the chance to show that Israel is nothing special, historically, in a tangible, quantitative sense. But if not, it's a project I'm sure I'll get to, as I have time. {MOD EDIT: Formatting.}
Except that, from an historical perspective, the United Nations itself is virtually (League of Nations) unprecedented, so it then follows that any major action it takes is almost as unprecedented if only by virtue of its framework.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
I don't think they are. But then, this is coming from someone who is not at all impressed with the UN, so I could be biased.
You could compare this "congregation of the nations" to Babylon, or the Persian, Roman, Ottoman empires, or any other multinational empire, with the difference being that despite collecting taxes, the UN is 100% flaccid and holds no real power, yet States continue funding it, and sending emissaries to represent them there. That's about the only unique and puzzling thing about it.
Nations, however, are nothing new. I don't think you could make a strong argument that nations (again, with a historical definition, not the modern one) are too new or rare to GET a proper statistical sample.
I'm not saying Israel is unprecedented. Far from it. If that were the case, this exercise would be meaningless. I'm saying the opposite, that there have been PLENTY of exiled nations over millenia, and this is exactly WHY I believe that we could come up with a relevant body of statistics in relation to it.
Ok, so you think the UN is the same as any great historical empire, with the exception that the UN doesn't collect taxes (Which it doesn't. As a point, the US, among other member states, is ridiculously behind on our dues), has no military of its own (all peacekeepers are voluntarily loaned by member states), has no actual economic or political leverage to use on its member nations except that which those member nations give it... oh, and instead of central authority dictating to the provinces, member nations exert their influence to effectively stymie any central assertion.
So it's just like an empire, except with regard to:
Finances
Military power
Central authority
Infrastructure
Administrative coordination
So, exactly how is it like an empire?
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
No, I pretty much just think the UN is a travesty and a joke, and that the US should get out of it. The point is, that there is no enough statistical data to do anything similiar to what we're talking about. By your own admission, you only have ONE other group to compare to, and since the League of Nations failed to bring to the table the very people it was FOUNDED to get talking, it's not even comparable, IMO. And yes, we are behind in our dues, and have been since Clinton was in office. That thought makes me smile. I know that it's not that we can't afford it. It's just that we can do that, damn it.
{MOD EDIT: Formatting. Please use normal spaces; don't hold down alt/option, or otherwise use non-breaking spaces.}
The League of Nations brought together exactly the nations it was intended to. Unfortunately, it lacked even the pretense of teeth that the UN has, and so could not even begin to address the conflicts it was intended to address.
And you're the one claiming the UN is comparable to Babylon, Persia, Rome, etc. Until of course, it's demonstrated that you're wrong, at which point you claim to have been saying something completely different.
Were you lying then, or are you lying now?
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
Well, if you want to find enough statistical data to say ANYthing significant about the UN, verses other organizations, you're going to have to find SOMEthing to compare it to, and they're the next closest *I* could think of. I'm not taking a strong stance on that, that was just off the top of my head.Yeah, hypothetically, comparing it to those empires is going to be more statistically significant than just comparing it to the short lived LoN, as you suggested. There's no discrepancy. I suppose you could throw the Hague conventions in there, but we've got quite enough silliness for one thread.
Are you really suggesting that even though the League DEPENDED on its member States to provide ANY sort of muscle for their decrees, the US's non-involvement was NOT a serious blow to their effectiveness? That must be why they did SUCH a great job at actually ATTAINING the world peace they were shooting for. In fairness, they WERE about as effective at that as the UN has ever been.
Either one I see as stopping a poker game halfway, and declaring gambling illegal, but everybody's stuck with whatever they've won or lost. Geopolitical change happens. Their attempts to stop it have NOT succeeded, and really SHOULD not succeed. I would think that any evolutionist would see that society evolves, too, and must be allowed to. {MOD EDIT: Dude, formatting, seriously.}
(USER EDIT: What, USERS have to do the formatting? What forum script are you running? Joomla's free, or you could google "GPL forum" or something. Okay, so what am I supposed to do?)
.... did someone say, "God's favorite Israel ?"
, yes they did, so hey F them ....
My pad is god's favorite ....
see, that's silly ain't it .... sheezzz
Atheism Books.
A if a theist asks you to name a nation/culture/state for example he really means "You are stupid I wont listen ! “ Stupid me for thinking that giving the name of a nation rebuilding itself has something to do with the topic stupid stupid stupid me ! Please forgive me for giving the example you asked for.
Ok hers the story of Poland for thus who have no aces to a library or the internet (ever heard of wikipedia ? ). Poland got conquered and the territory divided upon 3 nations Russia , Germany , Prussia. Long story made short pols rebuild their nation by themselves after WW1. Language in tact culture in tact and I think some of the regimes were mute more restrictive then Jews encounter forbidding the teaching of the polish language and so on ! Well pols managed it without gods magic help , it seams people are more powerful then god can ever hope to be.
Warning I’m not a native English speaker.
http://downloads.khinsider.com/?u=281515 DDR and game sound track download
Ah, the fun of backtracking through prophecy to match your conclusions.
Isaiah was prophesying about the return of the kingdom of Judah. Around 1948, some folks with an agenda tied it to the whole of Israel.
It's a proud tradition. Around 70-80 CE, the person(s) who wrote the gospel of Mark remembered this rabbi named Yeshua that he really liked. He went back and found the Messianinc prophecies and said that those prophecies were about this Yeshua.
thus the legend of Jesus was born.
My opinion only YMMV.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Two questions:
1) What are you smoking?
and
2) Do you have any more?
carx & magilum-
Ah, but we're not TALKING about prophecy. And the REASON for that is to stay within the realm
of what is demonstrable, measurable, quantifiable. We're sticking to science here. Do you HAVE anything or don't you?
Then get to the point.
And you were given two examples that you conveniently blew off
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
Also, mobius_thought, stop using non-breaking spaces. If you're holding the alt/option key while typing spaces, stop it.
OK lets sum up you say
1) God exists because he predicted a rebuilding of a nation.
2) Atheist showe me a nother nation rebuildin itself to disprove my argument
Here we have Poland and lets not forget “The Rom , Romani / Gypsies.”
3) This has nothing to do with prophecy
You make no sense ( You are not rational !) the point is that you clime god prophecy shows gods existence and asked for a other example showing the same. I have given you a counter example answer to this ! There has bean no prophesy of Poland rebuilding itself !
My privies post have not asserted , refereed or mention any prophecy I have given you a example answer it !
Besides If we don’t talk of debunking with counter arguments ( Poland , the Romani ) your assertion and showing the your prophecy is not different than the prophecy of the sun rising tomorrow then what the hell are we doing here ?
Compiling a list of nations who remained their culture while not having a state ?
For the love of Satan and Santa answer me !
"Poland" this is whot I have !
Warning I’m not a native English speaker.
http://downloads.khinsider.com/?u=281515 DDR and game sound track download
I have no love for either Santa or Satan.
You've not made any POINTS in your previous posts?
Do you expect ME to argue BOTH sides of the issue?
It's not enough to post MY side of why I DO think Israel is unique?
You expect me to take a NAME, track down the relevant facts ABOUT this other nation, and argue against myself?
Like I said, if nobody here is up to the challenge, that's fine.
But if it's a personal project, and I'm doing it all myself, then I have no real rush, do I?
How long WERE the Romani in exile? What specific traits lead they maintain in common as a nation? A name is not sufficient.
magilum-
I'm not doing anything. I'm typing on my standard Logitech 101-key multimedia keyboard, the same way I do on everything from Joomla boards, to MSN groups, to word processing (In either windows OR linux),
and it always works fine. I really don't think I'm doing anything wrong, but if there's something specific I should be doing to format the posts,
let me know.
You've got it all backwards.
Israel is a modern political construction whose philosophical origins rested in the supposed biblical prophecy and is thus "self-fulfilled". Israel was placed there by force by foreign powers. It did not coagulate into a nation once again from scattered descendants, it was merely suggested by rabidly idealistic modern Jews, most of which were descended most directly from Eastern Europe, rather than the Middle East. It is only because of the association of the Jews with the Christian powers of Europe and America that Israel even exists, coupled of course with sympathy over the holocaust.
There's nothing remarkable about exiled populations. Whenever a nation falls to foreign powers, its citizens are by default exiles. Nobody seems to notice them though, unless they carry with them a very distinctive culture and religion like the Jews did. The Romai were a group of Northern Indian settlers who were displaced some 1500 years ago, and which have maintained a distinct culture even after they were displaced into Eastern Europe. If tommorow the UN decided that they would carve out a piece of Northern India and then decided to dump everyone who calls themselves a Gypsie on it, would you then consider that new nation remarkable?
Europe did this continually with the nation of Poland. Poland has been continually re-partitioned and split apart by European wars. For much of its history, Poland was not even a nation. The Polish people spread far and wide throughout Europe and the Americas, and has in recent times reformed into a national unit. Are the Poles and the Romani any less remarkable than the Jews?
I believe you have simply shrouded the Jews in an air of mystique because of the religious myths you have been reading, and have given them an unfair bias.
thanks theotherguy, I needed that for my Israel debate folder .....
Word Perfect * ..... we owe ya ,
..... taming israel !
Atheism Books.
Certainly, you're not alone in thinking this way. And yet, given the lack of supporting facts or evidence,
I admit I am baffled by the pervasiveness of this myth.
It's as if the simple fact of BEING prophesied makes certain people (those disinclined to prophecy) discount
the noteworthy accomplishments involved in the formation of modern Israel.
To refer to something as a "self fulfilling prophecy" means that the act of prophesying itself
was a primary factor in that action coming to be. That is not the case here. Modern Zionism, as in, an actual
movement to repatriate significant numbers of Jews back to Cana'an began in the late 19th century.
Thus, if we were to look at it from a slighly older perspective, say at the time of the foundation of America..
Then we're at a time when there is no movement for Zionism, and it has been 1700 years since the Jews had a
homeland. Yet, there were still people identifiying themselves as Jews all over the world, sharing a language, a
religion, a culture, etc.. tied together through this identification 1700 years after the designation lost any (positive)
political meaning. That in itself is something few other people have ever done.
NOW, on to the FORMATION of Israel. Israel was NOT placed there by foreign powers. In fact, the ONLY other country to give ANY support of any substance was Czechoslavakia- Not exactly a world superpower. The Jews bailed the Brits out of WW1, when their troops were sent into the field with guns that had big gaping holes in the clips. The Jews, being then and now the makers of the world's finest armaments, were approached, and agreed to help the Brits in exchange for the Balfour Declaration, a basically meaningless little piece of paper, with NO muscle behind it, which declared Palestine the international home of the Jews.
Despite the lack of any power behind it, a world superpower making this announcement did to some degree spark Jewish interest in making Aaliyah ("going up", the trip home). The Brits and the UN DID have a plan for the region, as the Brits were pressured into pulling out of the area (militarily at least). But they did NOTHING to make it happen. THEIR plan called for the creation of two states, Israel and Palestine, upon the British withdrawal. But, of course, the larger surrounding countries wanted that land for themselves.
So as the Brits pulled out, the Jews in the area declared their
independence to the world, and prepared to defend themselves.
The Palestinians did not, trusting the world powers to take care of
it for them.
As anyone could prdict, the pullout led to no new creation of Palestine,
yet because the Jews had seen the writing on the wall, and taken steps
prepare for war, a Nation-State 2 days old was able to defend against a foreign invasion waged by FIVE,
yes count them, FIVE larger, well funded, and better organized countries, with NO
help from their supposed allies.
In fact, despite the UN HAVING a plan to create an "Israel" once it was created WITH no
help from the UN, a UN resolution recognizing Israel's existence didn't look like it was going to pass.
The Israelis tried to blackmail Rockefeller, who any educated American should recognize as a traitor anyway,
and ended up getting blackmailed back- Rockefeller would use his influence to swing the latin block in the UN
to support the recognition of Israel, and in return, Israel gave up any future right to chase down and prosecute
the study stream of ex-Nazis which had escaped Germany, and was flowing, largely through Italy and the Vatican, into South America.
It was a bitter pill to swallow, but the terms were accepted, and AFTER the war of independence had already BEEN over
for some time, the UN finally recognized Israel as in independent country.
Now, if you want to argue any of this, and still feel that Christian/European sympathy had ANYTHING to do with the formation of Israel, please support that theory with FACTS.
Because I KNOW the facts. It's a FACT that the US (the largest supposedly Christian country) turned
shiploads of Jewish emigres away during WW2, sending them back to the hellhole that many had spent their
life savings to escape. And it's a FACT that America was dragged kicking and screaming into WW2, and EVEN THEN,
did not divert ONE SINGLE AIRPLANE to blow up ONE SINGLE GAS CHAMBER.
No, if the UN made it happen, it would not be impressive. However, if they did it THEMSELVES, then yes, that WOULD be remarkable.
OK I see you neade facts with I have provided in my short sum up however here is a article on the 1RP (First Republic of Poland) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth#_note-Janowski
its mentiond in the date of existance 1569 – 1795 and its mentiond here "The Duchy of Warsaw, established in 1807, traced its origins to the Commonwealth. Other revival movements appeared during the January Uprising (1863–64) and in the 1920s, with Józef Piłsudski's failed attempt to create a Polish-led "Międzymorze" ("Between-Seas"
federation that would have included Lithuania and Ukraine. Today's Republic of Poland considers itself a successor to the Commonwealth,[17] whereas the reestablished at the end of World War I Republic of Lithuania at the early stages of regaining independance saw the participation of Lithuanian state the old Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth mostly in a negative light.[18], although the atitude has changed significantly.[citation needed]"
Then we have the 2RP with started after WW1 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I
" Poland gained independence, while the Kingdom of Yugoslavia came into existence as a successor to the Kingdom of Serbia. "
article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Polish_Republic
today we have the 3RP with is a successor from the PRL (a communist government ) so the 3 rebuilding is disputable according to the fact if you accept the PRL for a rebuild Poland of the order of Stalin or the process during the cold war and the establishment of "solidarność"
for more informatio aske go to wicki or here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_governments_and_their_composition
And if you tale agein I dident provide information I swere I'm going to mail you my polish history book.
{Edit}
mobius formatting ! Paste you post in a notepad or something before posting.
Poles did it by themselves without help , are they remarkable ?
Warning I’m not a native English speaker.
http://downloads.khinsider.com/?u=281515 DDR and game sound track download
Nine nations TOGETHER couldn't "tame Israel."
More troops amassed at her border than men, women, and children INSIDE her borders couldn't "tame Israel."
You will NEVER tame Israel.
Sh'ma Yisra'el! Hashem Eloheinu, Hashem Echad!
Baruch Atah, Ad-nai Eloheniu, Melekh Ha'olam...
.http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/index.html
1948 War
When the inevitable war broke out the outcome was never in doubt, according to U.S. intelligence reports from the time. The Zionist army consisted of over 90,000 European-trained soldiers and possessed modern weaponry, including up-to-date fighter and bomber airplanes. The Arab forces, very much a third-world army, consisted of approximately 30,000 ill-equipped, poorly trained men. The U.S. Army, British intelligence, and the CIA all agreed: it would be no contest.
1967 War
In 1967, Israel conquered still more land. Following the Six Day War, in which Israeli forces launched a highly successful, Pearl Harbor-like surprise attack on Egypt,....
btw .... might as well call Israel a U.S. state....
Atheism Books.
I had planned to check out the main page of the domain, but found it unnecessary. The bias of this shows is shown even on the direct link you gave. I thus reject any "information" that they think all Americans should know.
As as matter of fact, rereading your quote, the bias is even shown in the parts you quote.
To compare the six day war to Pearl Harbor? PLEASE! Countries were amassed on EVERY border Israel HAD, ready to invade and strike. ISRAEL wasn't looking to conquer ANYthing. They saw troop and artillery buildups, which, again, some sources say outnumbered the number of Israelis, INCLUDING civilians, and decided their best (or perhaps only?) hope was to get the first strike. They did strike, taking out almost all of Egypt's tanks, for example, and in the process, since they were attacked, they decided to progress THEIR troops to a more defensible position, expecting further waves of attack.
The Arabs were not a ragtag bunch of freedom fighters.
Nor were they a group of refugees fighting for homes. They
were national armies, trained by their home countries, so if
they were poorly trained, it only means their countries trained
them poorly. It sounds like an easy excuse for why Israel won,
to me. Likewise, SOME of the Israelis had military training, but
regardless, in 1948 there WAS no Israeli Army, at least not one
with an established hierarchy, and a trained body of soldiers.
THEY were the unorganized, ragtag bunch of people fighting for
homes.
Yeah, people always want to bitch about US support to Israel,
but it's a joke. Freaking Henry Kissinger, supposedly a Jew, yet
working for America, almost cost Israel their freedom in 1973, by not realizing the power of the forces against them. He would later be quoted as saying Yes, he wanted them to win, but wanted them to get a "bloody nose" first, so they'd consider putting the 1967 lands on the table. EVERY time there's a conflict, yes, plenty of Americans support Israel. The American GOVERNMENT, on the other hand, has consistently turned their backs on her. Listen to the CURRENT rhetoric coming out of the White House-
"We want to spread democracy in the region."
Hell no they don't! We've HAD a democracy in the
region for SIXTY YEARS! They want an OIL-PRODUCING democracy in the region. And that's the same reason that the Arabs hate us, and it's the same reason that the US has turned a blind eye every time Israel is in trouble. REGARDLESS of the OFFICIAL stance, a primary factor in what America does is to keep oil flowing out of those Muslim countries, and into American ships.
Look up the USS Liberty. America was actually SPYING
on Israel, and passing information on, through Britain, to Egypt.
It's all done for oil, and when the game is oil, Israel has no reason
to pull those forces to her side.
Hey mobius_thought ,
We probably agree on alot regarding the political problems we see in the mideast. Oil is indeed the primary motivation driving the interests of the west.
However to inject "god of abe" into this mess is not helpful and even insulting to world human dignity and progress.
The mere mention and idea of "chosen ones" is a slap in the face to the "world family" we are. Even intelligent jews are embarrassed by that.
.... sheezzz man ... are you for real ?
Atheism Books.
..a few nukes could via a single ICBM. After all this isn't the 1950's and it's not just the two major super powers that possess this technology anymore.
It's a whole new political ballgame now and the stakes have risen to an all-time high.
a)Israel is bordered on the west by the Mediterranean Sea. Which country was massing there?
b)are you asserting that Israel wants no countries on her borders?
Really, it's a very silly phrase to use. FORCES massing, sure, but COUNTRIES massing on the borders? Countries are always on the borders! That's part of what makes them borders!
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
Good point BMcd. I live in North Texas next to the Oklahoma border, should I prepare for war with a bunch of Oakies ? Perhaos they want to come down and steal some cattle or lay claim to our gas well ? God damned Oakies always trying to challenge our sovereignty !
All kidding aside, I get your point.
So if there's information that undercuts your position, you'll scream 'bias' and claim you can ignore it w/out any loss of objectivity? Brilliant. Anyone saying you're wrong must be lying.
No, they compared the initial attack to Pearl Harbor. Reading comprehension FTW!
Then they'd have no reservations about returning those territories seized during the war, right? Including Jerusalem?
That's right, and the Iraqi army having been under sanctions for ten years and being attacked by the most advanced force in the history of warfare, that's just an 'easy excuse' for why the US rolled right into Baghdad, right?
Of course it's 'easy' to see it now, after all, not only have years been spent analysing what happened, it also happens to be true.
Also irrelevant. Well-trained individuals perform in a crisis according to their training. They self-organize into the roles they are familiar with, and can quickly find their feet in unpredictable situations, especially when dealing with volatile armed conflict is exactly the situation for which they have been trained.
ZOMG! Politicians LIE! Alert the news media!
Pssst. We also spy on Great Britain, France, Germany... we spy on all of our allies, so we can be sure they still are. Politics and espionage are very convoluted games of cross and double-cross, and if you don't think we and all our allies stab one another in the back in a constant manner, you're insane. No State has any other State's best interests are heart. No matter how much we may support them, no matter how much they may support us, in the end, a State's obligation is to its own citizens first, and every State in this world will sell out its dearest ally if it decides that's in its own best interests.
Not everything's done for oil. A lot of things are done out of a deluded desire to bring about the fulfillment of biblical prophesy so the world can end.
Here, lemme say it nice and clear in case you don't get it:
American Evangelicals who support Israel and funnel money to her only see her as a tool by which they can foment the end of the world and (they presume) be granted their eternal reward after the massive war and bodycount that consumes the middle east in their view of what's going to happen.
Their 'support' of Israel is 'here, have some money so you can DIE because I want my Christmas present'.
So, you wanna play the biblical prophesy game, you feel free, but if one prophesy can be accepted as true without any actual empirical evidence of divine causality, then any can, which means that the gathering of Israel is a precursor to the execution of Israel.
Have a nice day.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
Well, Prozac, it is the Republic of Texas, y'know... maybe the Oakies wanna give you back to Mehico!
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons." - The Waco Kid
This could have been said before, but I don't think diaspora Jews maintain a language. Modern Hebrew was created by Eliezer Ben Yehuda in the late 19th century.
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)
I think its also worth mentioning that Theodore Hertzel (founder of zionism) and David Ben-Gurion (Israel's George Washington) were atheists.
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)
so it`s remarkable that a bunch of people went to some place and declared the place there own , then used superior military force to conquer even more land ...good...i can agree with that to some point..then again i can agree with hitler`s army conquering poland and france and hell europe cause they were better soldiers , that`s remarkable aswell . So is conquest sometimes justified (when god WANTS it) and sometimes not? From where i stand Israel has as much right to be there as Germany has a right to have borders reaching across poland and france . So you have US backing up Israel...that`s fact , I`m VERY biased , fact
Well, Israel was immigrating Jews into the land long before the 1948 War and the Holocaust. They conquered significantly more land (almost to their modern borders) after the 1967 War when Israel was invaded by Jordan and Egypt. King Hussein and Abu Nasser kind of gave up the right to some of their territory when they attacked Israel. So I really don't see how Germany has the same right to the land as Germany.
"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." (CS Lewis)
"A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading." (CS Lewis)