I was bound to post something interesting sooner or later, law of averages and all.  

You remember a time when you didn't know you existed?

Not my point at all. I am not asking about not having a sense of a soul. If that was what I found interesting, I could point out that I don't know anyonewho has a sense of a soul. What is interesting in Helen Keller's case is that she had no reference for her own existence. It was only after her teacher worked with her that she realized she had existed in those first eighteen years.

I am asking, if there is some component of consciousness removed from these sensory perceptions, a homunculus or internal viewer, why should it not realize its existence regardless of sensory input?

I have heriditary congential anosmia.

Fancy way of saying that I have no sense of smell.

I didn't start figuring out this fact until around the 3-4 grade.  My friends could stand close to painted over windows outside the cafeteria and tell what we were having for lunch.

I was fascinated by the "magical" power of smelling.

Before that though, the concept of smell didn't really exist in my mind.  I knew the word, but I didn't really understand what the word meant.

So I can kind of understand what Helen was saying.

Yeah. I don't imagine anyone can.  

This is true. Apparently this wasn't enough to give her a sense of existence. She says she had tactual memmories but didn't realize them until working with the teacher. This seems to me to say she was storing information though was not conscious of doing so. I would imagine, perhaps, the way a lot of animals store information but are not self aware.

I would imagine not only a way to express things but a way to think at all. Before this time I would imagine she would not have been able to form a concept as she had no medium in which to construct one.

From the quote, I take it that she had no awareness of being. It seems to go further than saying she was not aware of others.

Of course you do have that difficulty. Just like you cant know what it is like to be a frog, or a scorpian or amoeba. Just like you cant know what it is like to be a different race or oposite sex.

Skeptics are not suprised by Helen Keller's ability to learn. We just dont see a magical puppiteer interveining. We see a dedicated teacher and an egar student.

Everytime someone with a dissability succeeds the theist crys GOD! But if God existed, wouldnt it be more effeciant to skip the deficite in the first place?

Eagles have better eyesight than humans and cockroaches are much older than mamals. For every Helen Keller that succeeds, there are infinatlely more that dont with her specific condition. Just like sperm and eggs. MOST dont succeed and that is a fact of life. Hellen succeeding is a normal minority ratio per capita, per her specific condition.

Hellen, like any precieved "miracle" is focusing on the hits and ignoring the misses that overwhelm the hits. Life fails most of the time, and what we see living is the minority compaired to the attempts.

Her rarity is not magic or divine, it is simply a rarity. I am rare too. I am a product of millions of sperm competing for one egg. All the other sperm died and for each of the 3 syblings I have, my mother had countless eggs end up as a period.

Keller is to be honored, not because of a magical sky daddy, but for the demonstration that we can figure out WHY she acomplished what she did without incerting THOR, or Isis or Jesus in as an answer.

If she could figure it out without sight or hearing, we can figure it out without fictional sky daddies. 

Definitely.  I can taste but I cannot sense flavor.  I eat whatever I want, I drink beer a lot, I have a job where I don't get very much exercise, I'm not athletic, and I'm 6'1" 160lbs dripping wet.  My brother on the other hand always has trouble with his weight.

I met a guy one time that told me he was one of four brothers.  Three of them could not smell.  The only one of them that ever had weight problems was the one who could smell.

Sometimes I eat just to make my stomach shut up.

I'm also what I call a "culinary ogre".  I'm not very picky about what I eat.

Spices for the most part are wasted on me.

I don't understand why so many people love food so much.  Sure there is some good ass food out there.  Medium rare steak, chili cheese fries, bacon cheeseburgers, etc.

But you get more out of them than I do.

And as honorable as her accomplishments were for her time with her condition, she is still as human as the rest of us. Helen atributing life to god is not impressive. It would be like Plato or Socretes atributing their accomplisments to their gods.

I would still have a beef with her as I would with Thomas Jefferson as far as their theistic claims.

"Made good"? If she were alive today I would ask her about black holes, and pulsars and meteors. I think as bright as she was, she might not have clung to that quote if she had been exposed to the data we know today. 

"My question, to those who believe in the existence of a human soul or some form of dualism, is how can you reconcile the existence of a soul as the seat of consciousness with the lack of self awareness experienced by Helen Keller in her early childhood? It seems to me that if there indeed was a soul and it inhabited her body, she should have had, at the minimum, a sense of self even without the external input of sight and hearing."

On what basis do you even assume that self-awareness is necessary criteria for the existance of a soul? There are a lot of unfounded presuppositions in your question. And she did have a sense of self. She just didn't have the ability to understand or know the definition of self.

And there are two very imprtant points in her life that you left out.

In her darkness, Hellen Keller believed in a God, even before she ever heard of the concept or the word God.

The very first word she ever said when she learned to speak was "God."

You didn't mention these facts, probably because you were unaware of them or just intentionally deceptive.

This reminds me of an article I read about when doctors first started operating on people blinded by cataracts.

The patients they operated on had never seen in their entire lives, and they were asked to describe what vision was like to them. It was interesting to hear some of the responses.

Basically they saw nothing but swirling puddles of color, like someone just dumped different colored buckets of paint into a large vat. They could see the colors and they could see them moving, but they couldn't make any sense of it at all.

It sort of makes you stop to consider how much thinking your brain is doing in a hurry whenever you just casually look around. Something as simple as a shadow (darkish color blob next to object which is another colored blob?) carries information that has meaning to us, but had no meaning to these people. The way objects appear to grow smaller as they grow further away is something we don't even think about, but it's something that would have to be explained to these people who were seeing for the first time.

As it turns out, some of them loved it, even though they had no idea what it was all about. Others hated it and kept their eyes covered, saying they actually preferred the familiar darkness.

It really made me rethink my own eyesight.

Just like I can't imagine what it's like to be Helen Keller, no matter how hard I try, I can't make what I see look like nothing but a puddle of random colors. I can't help but make sense of it.

Can anyone else find a quote that shows Helen Keller believed in god? And if they can, will the next person who posts one explain how it is supposed to be at all relevant to the topic?

I'm astonished how many assumptions are being made here about what Hellen Keller thought and felt. It only took about 2 minutes of searching to figure out a few things.

 Her first word was "water", according to several sources. This was signed not spoken. Haven't yet found the first spoken word.

She was religions, but certainly not in a fundemantalist way. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_in_my_Darkness

She was a heavily influenced by Swedenborg.

FWIW, She was night blind and deaf from birth. She lost her hearing and sight to an illnass whil still an infant.

As for the quote that started this, what was it quoted from? The context might be illuminating.She may not have been entirely literal. 

 Also, consider this: it is hindu and ancient Gnostic cults who believed in a strong duality between soul and body. This duality between the two, is common today in new age philosophies and religions -- it even has some place within some Christian sects.

But Christianity has historically believed that man is a soul AND a body. Both are dependent on each other for full realization and awareness.

The soul is not a fully functioning reality outside the body. It is aware to some extent, but we have no way of knowing the level of this awareness.

Only those in heaven (saints) are truly and fully conscious outside a body.

The resurrection of the dead, as taught by Judaism and Christianity, will be a re-uniting of the soul and body, restoring man to his proper condition and complete nature of soul/body unity.

Man is not a soul

Man is not a body

Man IS soul AND body.

The ancient Gonstics believed matter was evil so they denegrated the body.

But in Christianity, the body is good and redeemned by Christ.

Christ didn't come just to save the soul. He also came to save the body --the whole man.

It will be restored to its proper constitution at the general resurrection of all people at the end of time.

I'm simply using her own words, as she wrote them, with the source now provided so whoever wishes can examine context and make their own conclusions as to her meaning. 

Again, is anyone here disputing this? 

Most people are, and historically have been, theists of some sort. Most people in history who overcome obnstacles are theists of some sort. Seems perfectly logical to me. 

Where is my conclusion? I asked a question and stated my impression based on the data I had. There is no conclusion. Every statement I make is not a conclusion. I don't know how you operate, but I usually try to gather information before reaching conclusions, and even then all conclusions are tentative. 

I realize this. This is why I wrote "it seems to me". Why are you trying to explain to mke what I wrote? 

Before you attempt to unnecessarilly explain logic to me, you might want to look up conclusion in a dictionary. Then you can show me where I have stated any conclusion in this thread. 

I would say that your purple elephant is standing on my tulips. ? 

Again you directly contradict what is stated in the quote with nothing but a naked assertion. She says she didn't "contact her forehead in the act of thinking". She says she only knows of her existence then and the tactual memories she has from that time in retrospect. You did read the quote before you started commenting, didn't you?

While materialism has a lot of support among RRS members, it is not a universally held position among philosophers. Neither is theological non-positivism. But they certainly make some strong points. If you look up philisophical materialism, you'll find some of the objections that allow the persistence of concepts such as a soul.    

You are tediously pedantic.

Helen Keller's quote has NOTHING to add to the discussion about dualism as it is given without any context. You project your own ideas onto a fragment of a persons life and expect a coherent conversation. You assume a great deal about what she acutally meant, and you also discard a great deal about developmental psychology. You haven't made a case at all, just tossed out a quote and added in some conjecture.  I could take a quote from the God Delusion and attempt to make Dawkins support some specious position. But unless all of the God Delusion is taken into account, a single quote from it means nothing. You have failed to present anything other than an intersting quote. If you want a real conversation, provide some context regarding Helen Keller's quote. 

So basically, if I don't participate in the manner *you* consider procductive, I should just fuck off. Freethinker indeed.

Eat shit and die. 

Let us not forget Helen Keller and her enormous contribution to humanity. She deserves our respect and perhaps a moment of silence. I dedicate this post to 57 of her quotes.

1. " Alone we can do so little; together we can do so much."

    

2. "Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it."

    

3. "As selfishness and complaint pervert and cloud the mind, so love with its joy clears and sharpens the vision."

    

4. "Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. The fearful are caught as often as the bold."

    

5. "Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experiences of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition inspired and success achieved."

    

6. "College isn't the place to go for ideas."

    

7. "God himself is not secure, having given man dominion over his work."

    

8. "I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; And because I cannot do everything I will not refuse to do the something that I can do."

    

9. "I can say with conviction that the struggle which evil necessitates is one of the greatest blessings. It makes us strong, patient, helpful men and women. It lets us into the soul of things and teaches us that although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcomings of it. My optimism, then, does not rest on the absence of evil, but on a glad belief in the preponderance of good and a willing effort always to cooperate with the good, that it may prevail."

    

10. "I do not want the peace which passeth understanding, I want the understanding which bringeth peace."

     

11. "I do not want the peace which passeth understanding, I want the understanding which bringeth peace."

     

12. "I have often been asked, ''Do not people bore you?'' I do not understand quite what that means. I suppose the calls of the stupid and curious, especially of newspaper reporters, are always inopportune. I also dislike people who try to talk down to my understanding. They are like people who when walking with you try to shorten their steps to suit yours; the hypocrisy in both cases is equally exasperating."

     

13. "I long to accomplish a great and noble task, but it is my chief duty to accomplish small tasks as if they were great and noble."

     

14. "I sometimes wonder if the hand is not more sensitive to the beauties of sculpture than the eye. I should think the wonderful rhythmical flow of lines and curves could be more subtly felt than seen. Be this as it may, I know that I can feel the heart-throbs of the ancient Greeks in their marble gods and goddesses."

     

15. "It is a terrible thing to see and have no vision."

     

16. "It is not possible for civilization to flow backwards while there is youth in the world. Youth may be headstrong, but it will advance it allotted length."

     

17. "Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved."

     

18. "College isn't the place to go for ideas."

     

19. "Keep your face to the sunshine and you cannot see the shadow."

     

20. "'Knowledge is power.'' Rather, knowledge is happiness, because to have knowledge -- broad, deep knowledge -- is to know true ends from false, and lofty things from low. To know the thoughts and deeds that have marked man's progress is to feel the great heartthrobs of humanity through the centuries; and if one does not feel in these pulsations a heavenward striving, one must indeed be deaf to the harmonies of life."

     

21. "Life is an exciting business, and most exciting when it is lived for others."

     

22. "Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."

     

23. "Literature is my Utopia. Here I am not disfranchised. No barrier of the senses shuts me out from the sweet, gracious discourse of my book-friends. They talk to me without embarrassment or awkwardness."

     

24. "Many people have the wrong idea of what constitutes true happiness. It is not attained through self-gratification, but through fidelity to a worthy purpose."

     

25. "Museums and art stores are also sources of pleasure and inspiration. Doubtless it will seem strange to many that the hand unaided by sight can feel action, sentiment, beauty in the cold marble; and yet it is true that I derive genuine pleasure from touching great works of art. As my finger tips trace line and curve, they discover the thought and emotion which the artist has portrayed."

     

26. "My share of the work may be limited, but the fact that it is work makes it precious."

     

27. "My darkness has been filled with the light of intelligence, and behold, the outer day-lit world was stumbling and groping in social blindness."

     

28. "No pessimist ever discovered the secrets of the stars, or sailed to an uncharted land, or opened a new heaven to the human spirit."

     

29. "No pessimist ever discovered the secret of the stars or sailed an uncharted land, or opened a new doorway for the human spirit."

     

30. "Not the senses I have but what I do with them is my kingdom."

     

31. "Of all the senses, sight must be the most delightful."

     

32. "One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar."

     

33. "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing."

     

34. "People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant."

     

35. "Science may have found a cure for most evils; but it has found no remedy for the worst of them all - the apathy of human beings."

     

36. "Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature.... Life is either a daring adventure or nothing."

     

37. "Self-pity is our worst enemy and if we yield to it, we can never do anything good in the world."

     

38. "Smell is a potent wizard that transports us across thousands of miles and all the years we have lived."

     

39. "The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart."

     

40. " The highest result of education is tolerance."

     

41. "The welfare of each is bound up in the welfare of all."

     

42. "There is no king who has not had a slave among his ancestors, and no slave who has not had a king among his."

     

43. "The marvelous richness of human experience would lose something of rewarding joy if there were no limitations to overcome. The hilltop hour would not be half so wonderful if there were no dark valleys to traverse."

     

44. "The world is moved along not only by the mighty shoves of its heroes, but also by the aggregate of the tiny pushes of each honest worker."

     

45. "There is much in the Bible against which every instinct of my being rebels, so much that I regret the necessity which has compelled me to read it through from beginning to end. I do not think that the knowledge which I have gained of its history and sources compensates me for the unpleasant details it has forced upon my attention."

     

46. "To me a lush carpet of pine needles or spongy grass is more welcome than the most luxurious Persian rug."

     

47. "To think clearly without hurry or confusion; To love everybody sincerely; To act in everything with the highest motives; To trust God unhesitatingly."

     

48. "Toleration is the greatest gift of the mind; it requires the same effort of the brain that it takes to balance oneself on a bicycle."

     

49. "The best way out is always through."

     

50. "Unless we form the habit of going to the Bible in bright moments as well as in trouble, we cannot fully respond to its consolations because we lack equilibrium between light and darkness."

     

51. "We can do anything we want to do if we stick to it long enough."

     

52. "We could never learn to be brave and patient, if there were only joy in the world."

     

53. "We may have found a cure for most evils; but it has found no remedy for the worst of them all -- the apathy of human beings."

     

54. "What a blind person needs is not a teacher but another self."

     

55. "When one door closes, another opens. But we often look so regretfully upon the closed door that we don't see the one that has opened for us."

     

56. "When we do the best we can, we never know what miracle is wrought in our life, or in the life of another."

     

57. "Your success and happiness lies in you. Resolve to keep happy, and your joy and you shall form an invincible host against difficulties."

What would that have been? 

That doesn't look like its going to happen beyond a few assertions and a novella's worth of quotes, so don't hold your breath. 

 I might have exaggerated when I referred to her "enormous contribution to humanity". But she did offer somethings. She was an overcomer. I don't want the youth of today to forget what she taught us.