Poke, poke.
Posted on: February 13, 2008 - 6:40pm
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Poke, poke.
More poking of the bear.
Is theism involuntary for a certain segment of the population? In the same way that sexual orientation is not a choice, is there something structural about some people's brain that dissallows the adoption of atheism? Evidence? Me. I'm a "better" atheist than some of the pseudo-intellectual hangers on that rant on internet forums. Yet I find this immovable part of my consciousness that insists on belief.
Just a weird thought.
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Interesting thought.
Not sure when it kicks in as a God-belief is a learned behavior (from what I know).
Can you think of a situation where such is innate?
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I think it is involuntary for every segment of the population as I don't think people voluntarily choose what to believe. This, however, is not saying that it is necessarily permanent or unalterable.
“Philosophers have argued for centuries about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but materialists have always known it depends on whether they are jitterbugging or dancing cheek to cheek" -- Tom Robbins
Well the only analogy I can think of is color blindness. The brain CAN'T see certain colors. Terrible analogy. I'll have to think about it some more.
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That's the lack of a function and as an analogy would lean toward atheism being innate.
Theism is new information added to the brain.
"I do this real moron thing, and it's called thinking. And apparently I'm not a very good American because I like to form my own opinions."
— George Carlin
I dont think you can pin it down to one factor. Genetics, environment and upbringing all play into it.
"Ego" is a normal instinct even when it leads to a false belief. What we(humans) often think is right, is a missfire merly thinking we are.
Which is why I shouldn't trust my ego in thinking that someday you will give up your theism. I am unfortunatly an optimist, at least with you. YOU ARE SO CLOSE!
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
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I think gullibility is. Particularly when faced with peer pressure.
If not religion, something else. I see it very much the same way that I see addictions to things such as gambling. If not gambling, then maybe gaming, if not gaming, then maybe alcohol...but either way it'll be something.
I think we see this with a lot of atheists who take on their following of a guy like Dawkins, or Hitchens to a level of basic reverance and make them out to be infallible.
I don't think we'll ever eliminate this kind of behavior totally.
I don't think there is such a thing as a Theist. There are only nonbelievers(atheists, agnostics) and liars about being believers.
There are some people who are more susceptible to pier pressure(like fishermen) and parental pressure. I suppose these people would be more likely to call themselves Theists just to get along. But I think people can be taught to recognize this and to think for themselves.
Taxation is the price we pay for failing to build a civilized society. The higher the tax level, the greater the failure. A centrally planned totalitarian state represents a complete defeat for the civilized world, while a totally voluntary society represents its ultimate success. --Mark Skousen
What is inate is the structures that pre-dispose one to belief or unbelief. Just like some people are scary good at chess because their brains just do it better than anybody else. Even as an abstract idea, some brain somewhere had to develop the abstraction of god. And another brain had to have the structure that allowed belief in order for the idea to be communicted. Some cave man probably heard some weird noise and thought it was a spirit.
Og: Ug bug a bug ug (there's that spirit again)
Nog: Fug foog bunga (shut the fuck up. There's no such thing as spirits)
And it ain't been the same since.
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Might we say that you have hope that I will one day abandon all traces of theism. Perhaps even faith?
(poke.poke.poke)
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"Faith" would say, if you are accusing me of that, taking the theist position, is that I would think you will deconvert eventually NO MATTER WHAT.
As much as I have "hope" for you, I will not delude myself, like theists have "faith" thinking I will convert someday. As much as I am hopefull for you, I am not delusional, you simply may not, and that is a reality too.
My indicators so far, are in the moment. You are still delusional, and that may not change. But, you haven't run scared either and have shown much understanding of atheists, even with your theism still there.
"Hope" only is the idea that maybe. "Faith" is "this will happen". I dont know how your beliefs will remain or change. I do know that you came in here with a different perspective than you do now. And you have shown that you can undertand. That gives me hope, but it doesnt make me delusional.
"Hope" is "I want this to happen". "Faith" is " this will happen".
I want you to give up on the idea of the super natural, but I am not deluded to think you will. You do show potential.
"We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and nonbelievers."Obama
Check out my poetry here on Rational Responders Like my poetry thread on Facebook under Brian James Rational Poet, @Brianrrs37 on Twitter and my blog at www.brianjamesrationalpoet.blog
Sorry, dude. I forgot how raw that nerve is on you.
bwahahahaha
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Are you looking for an excuse for your belief? If there is a 'god belief gene' then I would ask for a reappraisal of eugenics. Breeding theism out doesn't sound so bad.
Ergo your problem. "my consciousness that insists on belief."
Why would WE know why YOU believe? If you don't know 'why' then why believe?
'poking bears' 'immovable part' 'insists on belief'
Can your thoughts get ANY weirder? Strike that. I'll remain blissfully ignorant on some of your thought patterns I'm sure. lol.
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No. I feel no need for an excuse. This is just a thought that came up.
What makes it a problem? It's not a problem to me.
Yeah. Best not climb aboard the wavefreak train. The bridge is probably out somewhere up ahead.
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Is religion inherent in the same way that sexual orientation is inherent?
Well no, not to the same degree and not in the same way but religion is somewhat inherent.
Take a look at every civilization that we know has existed. I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong but I am almost certain that every civilization that has ever existed has created and worshiped some kind of God. It is human nature to believe in something greater than ourselves. Some may ask since it is human nature why do some people not believe. Well human nature changes all the time. If you look back to our hunter gatherer days men had dominance women were subservient. It was in a man’s nature to be dominant because a man’s superior athleticism allowed him to hunt therefore supporting his family unit. Today women have just as much power as men, the U.S. has a woman running for president, a lot of women are now making more than their husbands, we have women CEO’s etc. The subservient role of women has changed because we do not rely on athleticism anymore to live.
In terms of religion it is in human nature to believe, however we do not need it anymore. 1000 years ago when we saw the sun peaking over the horizon we didn’t understand what it was. We could only explain it by saying it is a God of fury or it was created by God. Today science has taught us that the Sun is a huge ball of gas and various other elements. Religion is no longer needed to explain the world around us and now humanity can begin to adapt.
As science progresses and we get more answers the idea of a creator will begin to diminish.
If Jesus was born today he would be institutionalized as a schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur.
Nice sentiment. But the evidence suggests that people still need religion else they would not cling so tightly to it in the face of the illumination of science on reality. Atheists may not need religion and may even believe humanity doesn't need religion. But there are those that so strongly need religion they will die and kill to defend that need.
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This is silly every person is a atheist and every human ! Well while they don’t learn of god.
Theism is some program added to you brain (a virus/meme ). Every person so is inclined and born atheist the only possibility to have a natural theist is schizophrenia ore invisible fends and so one.Warning I’m not a native English speaker.
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Trying for another "head shot"?
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Well its the slave gene XD. This implies a natural order where we have slaves (believers) and masters (atheists). The slaves believe the masters to be gods and do every command of the gods. While the masters use the believers for their advantage.
So I hope that your theory is true
bow down primitives for me the ubermench the incarnation of a god and serve me.
In this order every one is happy the atheists get their rationality and the believers get their believe. (Must start my own cult LOL )
Warning I’m not a native English speaker.
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WV I’m a student and being randomly funny is in my nature
. Really I don’t know why you hate memes so much ? I have explained you the moths and informatics behind it , its like a trend or faction (seriously you are challenging observable facts here ). Its not that I need to understand the whole universe and every force behind it to explain why rocks are attracted to the ground . 
Warning I’m not a native English speaker.
http://downloads.khinsider.com/?u=281515 DDR and game sound track download
I think the chess player example is relevant. We admire things/people that can do stuff way better than us and I think the usefulness of this trait should be obvious.
I've always thought that this inherent idolizing is the prime mover for reoccuring theistic ideologies in unconnected human societies.
I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind.
Who said I hate memes? I just think they are an intellectually weak paradigm. And your "explanations" are fragmented and lack depth and understanding. But this thread isn't about memes. So if you want to tussel over that, then post in the other thread.
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This is an opinion. A mind virus is a specious construct with more emotional satisfaction than explanatory power.
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Oh wow I am completely wrong! The changes should have happened the instant we found out the Earth revolved around the Sun, silly me!
You do realize that a change to something so ingrained in our nature and in our culture is likely to take centuries not decades?
If Jesus was born today he would be institutionalized as a schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur.
Maybe. But the atheist ethos does not condone violence or force in the propagation of ideas. Religion does. I'm just stating the facts. I don't condone violence either.
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What does humanity's compulsion to believe in a higher power and the fading away of that compulsion have to do with violence and ethics?
If Jesus was born today he would be institutionalized as a schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur.
Because there are people that are willing to kill you if you try to take away belief. They will not let it fade away. It will have to be taken from them. The tool of atheism is rationalism. The type of theism that kills is irrational. Pushed to an extreme, there are people that WILL kill you for your unbelief. There are some that won't even ask you to recant your atheism (or even my brand of theism). The will kill you for your unbelief. It's a conundrum that I haven't solved. I am at heart a pacifist. But pacifism has no weapon against bloodlust.
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I fail to see how that means that religion will never fade away. People kill for many reasons, it again is in our nature. Men use to kill and punish women for disobedience because men use to be dominant now they do not. Just like that part of our nature changing with a changing world so will religion eventually.
You asked if religion was in our nature, the answer is yes it is.
If Jesus was born today he would be institutionalized as a schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur.
sure there is a small group that would not do the right thing if it weren't for the deterrent effect - law enforcement would be a rational alternative to theism though.
Actually, religion as it stands is not a small group. And they will disagree with you one what the "right" thing is.
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Religion= Meme for me
so I explain it in cave man mentality :
You state : Religion and believes are genetical
I say : There are 2 possibility’s believe is
A) Neurological (mind virus/meme)
B) Biological (the faith gene)
I say : Religion is option A do to babies having no conception of god/s
You : disagree and say its off topic
[Do you see the contradiction here ? If I say something that don’t follows the B opinion you are telling me I’m off topic ! Dude you are excluding calculators from information theory (metaphorically) ! ]
I : Give a example if religions are biological I have the natural right to have religious slaves worshiping me
You : Ignore this one
***
The questions to answer for you if you doge one you fail :
1) Howe discussing the other nature of religion then biological is off topic.
2) Howe can a information about god/s be not in the field of information theory and be a similar concept like dressing stile ?
3) If believe is genetical in nature is it natural for me to make all theist to worship me ? If not how can religious believe be natural ?
Let the answering start.
Warning I’m not a native English speaker.
http://downloads.khinsider.com/?u=281515 DDR and game sound track download
People LIKE religion. The LOVE religion. It feeds something deep inside them. They roll around in it like cats and catnip. Granted, it isn't rational. But it is REAL to them. Rationalism is cold and meaningless to them. The weakness of rationalism is that it expects people to be rational. If only we were better educated, if we understood science. People don't want education and science. They want to feel good. If people can be convinced that science and rationalism will make them feel better, it might work out. The problem is that to convince people that it works they have to first be rational. My opinion is that if theism dies, it will be replaced with an elite class of "rationalists" and an underclass of people still living by what feels good. Oh happy day.
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Ding Ding Ding
Wooow congratulations I have realized this conclusion first(hey we posted nearly simultaneously check out the previous page ). Actually what you are trying to say is people love obedience they need obedience.
To be completely clear you meant there is a obedience/faith gene yes ?
I have more interesting questions to this :
- Are all faiths and cults blameless (especially the destructive ones ) do to the fact this made the members feel good ?
- Are you interested in accepting me for you personal god ? Its the only natural way.
- Can I have in your opinion religious slaves (I really wont to have some )?
- Can I be worshiped for a god ?
Warning I’m not a native English speaker.
http://downloads.khinsider.com/?u=281515 DDR and game sound track download
Well it seems to me like you just want to argue with people.
The more scientific discoveries we make, the more common scientific knowledge becomes, the longer it is around, the larger the impact will be. It will not happen tomorrow but much like all the other changed to human nature it will happen eventually. Think about it as an evolution of the mind.
Unless God comes down and tells us to believe in him science will eventually take over.
I do not think you grasp the concept, the changes are already showing themselves, eventually they will spread.
If Jesus was born today he would be institutionalized as a schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur.
Changes like global warming, that without technology would not exist? The threat of nuclear war, thanks to science. PCBs and mercury in water supplies. Invasive species do to our advances in transportation (zebra mussels in the Great Lakes). Class disparities in the distribution of health care (where's the religion here?). Un-even distribution of wealth (rich people tend towards atheism). The Colorado River Basin (it is nearly dry by the time it gets to the Gulf of California). I know. Let's blame all this crap on religion. At least when we were hunter gatherers praying to the tree gods the world wasn't on the verge of an ecological meltdown. Death to god. Rationalism into the breach!
We are so fucked.
(I'm feeling a little dark today)
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If God didn't want atheists than we wouldn't exist..
As soon as you fail to make one point you move to something completely different. That no-logic theist side of you is showing.
The world has been fucked for thousands of years yet we still live on. They sky is always falling, two millennium ago Zeus would get pissed and end the world unless we gave tributes today its war and global warming. Not that global warminng is not real.
If Jesus was born today he would be institutionalized as a schizophrenic with delusions of grandeur.
Yeah, it was kinda hypocritical for mother theresa to get such awesome health care...
Wave, just because people use scientific discoveries to fill their homes with plastic clutter, get take-out on styrofoam, and drive their cars places they could walk doesn't correlate to science fucking us over. for example, cigarettes. sure technology aids the curing of tobacco but science has also identified the risks.
DUH! Sometimes life isn't logcal. What makes you think I'm trying to prove ANY point? What's wrong with an occasional random stream of conciousness? Are you diminished in any way? Have you placed a value judgment on non-logic? On what to you base that judgement? There is no empirical basis for "right" and "wrong". You just believe logic and rationalism is a better paradigm. What irony it would be to discover that people were happier and more productive in a state of deluded theism than in a clear rational state.
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Well people can be happier in fascism or communism 2 XD.
The point made by RRS is if you don’t follow rationality you don’t get the science candy.
My point is regardless of the ideology rationality allows fore creation of things that work so we can make more powerful weapons and exterminate primitives (Evolution !!!1one!) if you are not with the ride don’t mind if we decide to destroy you. This argument always works and is so simple tits note about truth or happiness (absurd emotional concepts if you ask me) , is about existence you discover the tools to survive or you stop existing its so simple.
Besides WF you still avoid my questions , you can me much happier worshiping me , choice me for you personal god and I make your life weary happy. You can work in my cool mines , worship me and stuff.
Warning I’m not a native English speaker.
http://downloads.khinsider.com/?u=281515 DDR and game sound track download
That's one hell of a leap. Even if there was a 'god-gene' it wouldn't necessarily be in the best interests of humanity. think of all the genetic defects out there...
If people were happier and more productive in a state of theism the theists would have built some sort of super spaceship and put up a church in several galazies by now.
Sorry shelleymtjoy however they are more happier and productive (cults working on the leaders farm) however they lack the potential for discoveries. Maybe religion can bring followers to build the beigest building , sacrificing their entire life time but they never invent a car. Is that what you menthe ?
So my question remains :
Will WF accept me for his god ?
And are the RRS supposed to start their church and use the money to support atheism in secret ?
Warning I’m not a native English speaker.
http://downloads.khinsider.com/?u=281515 DDR and game sound track download
What makes populating the galaxy "better" than doing shrooms in some jungle and "seeing god"?
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And communism and fascism are wrong because? Oh wait, I know why, because they piss enough people off so they decide it must be wrong. Freedom and all that rot. (Crap, The universe is a fully deterministic machine. Freedom is an illusion).
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Because you can space bombard the hell out of thus shamans with the mushrooms XD.
WF Why are you ignoring my questions ?
Besides who told you F&C are evil ? I never stated this ? You are the one claming that people supposed to do whatever makes them happy an I wont to have slaves XD.
We can be happy together I can be your god and we have a healthy master slave relationship . Inset that what you wont ?
Warning I’m not a native English speaker.
http://downloads.khinsider.com/?u=281515 DDR and game sound track download
Well at least your getting into the spirit of this thread. This thread is nothing more than a fluid rant. It's amusing how you all keeep trying to turn it into a logical argument. This whole thread is nothing more than a random brain dump from my perspective. I'm pushing buttons, poking the bear. And as I told you before, there is another thread where you and I were jousting. If you wish, post there and I'll see if I can decipher your incoherencies.
And another thing. I don't want you as my god. You think to highly of yourself.
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Ummm... eventually our planet won't be able to sustain life so the future of humanity would lie on us finding another rock for our recreational drug use. If someone is content to sit around because in the end 'God' is going to come our great-great...grandchildren will be very disappointed.
I see your point and don't disagree that religion can motivate people however I wonder if they really are happy or if it's just an illusion of being happy due to fear and not ever being exposed to anything better.
You do know what happens when you poke the bear, right?
Yup. Have you seen any of the "Messin' with Sasquatch" commercial?
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OK I think I’m going to lift of using my magic fling powers , get to my SS.Hitler in orbit and cruse around the galaxy killing dame primitives on drugs. Its time the war on drugs gets to the next level XD !
LULZ
Warning I’m not a native English speaker.
http://downloads.khinsider.com/?u=281515 DDR and game sound track download