My best friend venomously attacks me.
Offline As I'm sure many of you know I also post the blogs I post here on MySpace. Well, today I came home to find that one of my best friends in the world, I mean, I'd almost want to call him a brother...had attacked me with the venom of a cobra.
I hate to use such an analogy, but that's how it feels. Yes, he is a Christian, though he claims that he doesn't really practice his beliefs.
The blog was not even the angry one that received so much hate from my agnostic friend, it was the one entitled "I'm an atheist, in case you didn't know." So I felt as if this deserves it's own special forum.
My friend Cody has been known for what he calls his "pen of vemon" and it seems as if he won't hold back even for a friend, well that's fine...I didn't hold back either. Here is a link to the blog, feel free to explain anything that I may have missed.
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=64634997&blogID=162983668&indicate=1
The other attack didn't hurt me all that much, it fact it didn't even really upset me. However, I would be lying if I said this attack did not sting me just a little bit.
As is the usual practice, my reponse to him is in bold.
"If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name at a Swiss Bank."-Woody Allen
"Atheism is life affirming in a way religion can never be."-Richard Dawkins
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I decided to post his comment and my reply here also. To make things easier. His comment is in quotes:
Ok.
Ok, first of all I'm not lost. You are assuming I am lost and you are actually quite wrong. Also, the RRS did not "spew" anything on my. I have actually been an atheist since around May-early June and just found out about these guys a few weeks ago. So your there is moot.
Once again you are assuming that I am just following what other peoples are telling me. Sure, I am interested in hearing their ideas...and they do make some wonderful points. However, as they say at the end of each show, "Do not blindly accept what we have told you as that is in itself irrational. Research all of our claims yourself." Which I promise I do. So once again your assumption is wrong.
It seems to me as if you are afraid of dying. Before I continue let me assure you that I am as well, I would be a fool not to be. I do not want my life to end to prematurely, I'd like to live a long healthy life. However, that does not mean I am going to blindly accept a fucking fairy tell that after well all die we float up into the sky to live for an eternity in perfection. That's bullshit.
I also refuse to believe that any all knowing, all loving God who is supposedly omnipotent, damns people who do not believe in him to eternal suffering and pain. That is evil and I see nothing all loving about that. Hell is the obvious creation of man who wishes to frighten people into believing their bullshit religion.
Finally, I am actually relieved that when I die nothing happens to me. It actually comforts me to know this and gives me the feeling of being truly free. Ask Logan, he to will tell you the same thing. To not live in fear ones entire life with whether you are going to be sent to heaven or damned is a wonderful feeling. I know and accept I only have one life to live and that makes me want to live it the best way I can, something religion and believing in an afterlife can hinder.
Now, with this next statement I am actually anticpating a retort that most theists give. Just because I do not believe in heaven or hell does not mean I wish to not be a good person. I'm not going to attribute my good deeds to asskissing an old whiteman in the sky. I am proud that I am a good person because that's who I am and it feels wonderful to be good, not because I'm hoping I will be rewarded in the afterlife.
Also, scientist are on the verge of discovering where morals come from and when the do the theory will be tested over and over, something you can do to a God. The current theory is that in the time of early man because most people were related to each other and needed to stick to gether to survive, man learned to be kind to each other as a means of survival. Thus we evolved into the creatures we are today and are able to be good without the existence of a god.
I'll keep this reply simple and give you this wonderful video describing atheism and how agnosticism doesn't reallyexist. The Correct Definition of Atheism-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ncCNwbb5Jc
True, but how do you know your religion is correct? There are many, many religions on this Earth and every single member of each respective religion believes in there God or god's just as much as you believe in yours. How are you sure you are correct? There are religions that have been around for much longer than Christianity, such as Taoism. There are also many religions that existed before Christianity that are just like and it's obvious Chrisitanity borrowed heavily from them.
Also, that's bullshit to say we "continue to fall back on religion". You are acting as if you are speaking for mankind. There are millions of people on this earth who proclaim to be non-believers, they are not "falling back on religion". I am not "falling back on religion". People for centuries would proclaim "God did it." when they couldn't explain something, but yet...along comes science proving that God did not do it. Evolution and the Big Bang Theory are two of the biggest examples of this. The recent discoveries regarding morality that I mentioned earlier are included here also.
Finally, by your logic the God's of ancient Greece must be true, they were believed in early in history just as much as you believe in your God. The only reason Christianity has lasted this long is because they basically killed off all opposition in it's primary areas of practice. If you didn't believe in God, you were persecuted and killed. If you would like I can give you many examples of this, but I don't think it's necessary.
Quite frankly your blind faith makes me sick. Check out one of my favorite quotes by Mark Twain on my main page.
And no, it's not scary at all. Whether you like it or not humanity is all we have. Even if by some chance there is some God, he's not doing anything to make our lives better. I guess you better start praying that he does, though I wouldn't expect an answer if I was you.
Also, your comment about the "creeping" scientific community really makes you sick. Next time you become violently ill I suggest you just sit home and pray about it rather than going to the doctor to receive medicine that we only have because of science. I'm sure God will reward you for your faith in him and not science by healing you.
I can name drop as well. Carl Sagan, Richard Carrier, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and many other brilliant, well educated people do not or did not believe in God, so your point there is not valid.
As for your comment about "The Lord of the Rings." I still enjoy them as they are a work of fiction. Sure, they have Christian undertones, but as I believe that is also a work of fiction no harm done. I do have the ability to seperate fact from fiction Cody. Please stop assuming.
-Trey
"If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name at a Swiss Bank."-Woody Allen
"Atheism is life affirming in a way religion can never be."-Richard Dawkins
It speaks for its self
God is as qualified to preach morality as Charles Manson, Hell, he could give Hitler a run for his money!
Hey GodStoleMyFriends!
Man, I know how you feel about friends being theists and how their comments towards you can hurt. When I first became an atheist, my girlfriend at the time shunned me, and her parents forbid me to speak to her and vise-versa. It can be rough being on this side of the fence, but just remember how much greener the grass is on this side.
As for his claim of how you "misconstrued" contradictions, you can give him on ethat he cannot claim that on. In fact I gave two in the latest supplimental show (You may have to listen to me rant a bit before I get there) and I made them pretty clear, even divided them up into seven points where the two subjects conflict.
Also there is a slew of them over in the BE forum.
If he wants to claim you somehow took them out of context, he is more then welcome to point them out. And then he can show you how such things are wrong. If you want, I can always pop by in your myspace blog and help out.
Good luck, my friend.
Atheist Books, purchases on Amazon support the Rational Response Squad server, which houses Celebrity Atheists. Books by Rook Hawkins (Thomas Verenna)
Thanks for the support you guys.
Yeah, you don't have to worry about me suddenly questioning atheism and my support of the RRS because of this. If anything, this event shall strengthen my will to help end theism.
After all, this entire problem stems from theism.
I actually just finished a debate with another friend of mine, she told me I should stop this. That friends are more important than atheism, I countered that she was wrong in thinking I'm doing it for atheism. I'm not.
I'm doing this because of my love for humanity and I can't help to feel that even if I lose friends along the way, as much as it hurts, I can't give up. If we didn't have religion, there really would't be a need for atheism anymore. Everyone would get long fine in that respect. Sure, there will always be disagreements among humans. However, ending theism will get rid of the major cause of most of those disagreements.
She then argued about the fact that this is American and people have rights to believe that they want. This has been covered so much that I don't believe it is necessary to be spoken of again, however, I will say this:
Like others here I cannot sit to the side and do nothing. Yes, it is America but remember how we came to live in such a great country. Because people did not just sit on the sidelines and do nothing. The colonists realized it was time for a change, they were right and in the end nothing but good came from it.
Oh and Rook, if you feel it's necessary you may comment on my blog if you would like. It's perfectly fine by me so I'll leave it up to you.
Thanks again.
"If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name at a Swiss Bank."-Woody Allen
"Atheism is life affirming in a way religion can never be."-Richard Dawkins
Keep on keepin' on, bro. It's always hard to be a minority. At least you *chose* this one.
Friends choose friends because of who they are. So you should choose friends who like you because you're YOU. If they don't, they're not worth your friendship. Who wants to live a lie just to make other people (who can't accept you as you are) more comfortable?
How about lets end today on a happier note than best friends turning on you.
I have a possible first time deconversion on my hands. I have yet to deconvert anyone and this kid is showing a lot of hope.
Right now I'm trying to get him to understand that he shouldn't take my word for everything. He sort of looks up to me and is willing to believe anything I say and I'm trying make him understand that he should be just as skeptical of what I am telling as he is of what theists are telling him.
He has a lot of questions and a lot of doubt and I think I can nudge him along the right path and get him to start working at this himself.
Any advice? I know Sapient has had what...35 deconversions in his life? Is there anything I should be wary of?
My biggest fear at the moment is this. That he starts claiming atheism too early on. He has practically the same friends as me (in fact, remember the female friend I mentioned in my first post here? He is also pretty good friends with her) and the I know that if he just starts saying he is an atheist they will attack him, rip him apart, and possibly send him back towards theism.
So, in that respect this is a pretty delicate situation. Any advice is most welcome.
"If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name at a Swiss Bank."-Woody Allen
"Atheism is life affirming in a way religion can never be."-Richard Dawkins
If he chooses the invisible man over you, he wasn't much of a friend to begin with.
First of all I want to congratulate you and encourage you in your continued efforts to live a life devoted to truth, instead of comfort, though the two are not mutually exclusive. It is the hardest thing, standing up for what you believe when others, especially friends, seem to want nothing more than have you continue to wallow in the self-hatred that their belief system engenders. I agree with those others of similar sentiments, your true friends will be those who understand and agree or at the very least hold from judgment because of ignorance.
As to your friend who is having doubts, simply keep telling him to think for himself, study and always beware of any thought that uses absolute statements or that can't be verified by reason. In the end, you can only be a catalyst, a friend and a supporter, the decision will ultimately rest with him as to what kind of life he wishes to live.
Particular points to address with those who are persecuting you (which is exactly what it is, I laugh all the time now when christians talk about persecution as they should walk a day in our shoes to see just what that is) are their inability to properly define what it is they're talkign about. Both God and the Bible, defined by Christians, simply don't exist. There is no legitimate justification for the existence of an entity devoid of any connection to material reality and there is no evidence, internal or otherwise, to point to a specific collection of books as being divinely mandated as being a Bible (if you want more specifics on this point just ask).
Good luck with the dialogue and feel free to come here for support, encouragement and any questions.
Every one of your relationships to man and to nature must be a definite expression of your real, individual life corresponding to the object of your will. -Erich Fromm
it should also be noted in your argument with 'cody', that religion has not pervaded history because it is true, but because it has always been taught to children as true....in other words, no religion has ever lived through the ages on its own, it has just been passed on in the simplest of fashions....y'know....by lying to kids.
if you drive a nail into a sapling, every year it becomes more and more difficult to draw that nail out. just imagine when that sapling grows into a 20-something year-old tree......
Fear is the mindkiller.
And in fact, that religion IN GENERAL has survived means nothing; it gives people what they need - comfort, explanations, belief in immortality. But that doesn't mean any of them were RIGHT - many (including xianity) are provable false about many things. Many believed lightning was Zeus' thunderbolt, but nobody thinks that now - though we still have believers in Noah's flood. ...hehehehe...
The fact that all the religions that HAVE survived are generally mutaully exclusive should prove that existence proves nothing at all.
He might respond that xianity is right because it is the MOST popular. But it wasn't always so; it was minor until it was accepted as the official religion of the Roman Empire and enforced by the state. That does a lot to kickstart your religion! Today, xians have a bad attitude about those nasty ancient Romans - up until the time when Romans started enforcing xianity! Folow that with the crusades and inquisitions in which non-xians were slaughtered and you start to see how xianity did so well over the centuries.
I just replied in your blog. I hope that helps. This is what I wrote and I quoted one of his replies to you:
What you believe is indeed "blind faith". You've placed your core values and trust in something that doesn't even exist. How can you claim that it is not "blind faith" when it clearly is? "Faith is the truth of imbeciles" - Luigi Cascioli
I'm not using Luigi to bolster my case like you tried to name drop. By the way, that's called an appeal to authority, and it is a logical fallacy.
We have our science, and you have no mentor. Who is your mentor? The one that says you should put people to death? And for what? Choose from the below list and I'll tell you if you're right:
1) Being homosexual
2) Wearing clothes of two different fabrics mixed (like cotton/polyester)
3) Women dressing like men (pants)
4) Working on Sunday
Guess what? It's all of the above! If you claim your mentor is your concept of a god, not only does it not exist, but it is evil in the first place. If your mentor is Jesus... Jesus never existed. We can go on with that in a separate thread, because I'm sure you have something to say about that.
I would hope you would not end your friendship because your imaginary friend doesn't like atheists. After all, "The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" -- Psalm 14:1. Your deity is an asshole... if it existed.
Thanks for the great reply, cbenard.
My friend actually apologized to me because of how he responded to my blog this past Thursday. However, he still believes in God and he only apologized for how mean spirited he was in his comment. So, comments like yours are still welcome for him and others who may visit the blog in the future.
"If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name at a Swiss Bank."-Woody Allen
"Atheism is life affirming in a way religion can never be."-Richard Dawkins